Avionics Upgrade

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Torque beast

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Bryan
Would like to tap in the knowledge here and get some opinions. I am wanting to upgrade my avionics in my F33a but not sure which route to go. It has 430w , kx165, DME, ADF all of which work but the 430 screen is peeling and needs sent off. Plane has 8k TT so may not be worth spending a lot for upgrades unless I know without a doubt I will keep it forever. Just want some newer equipment to get rid of vacuum pump and be a solid IFR set up. What would you do?
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I would consider upgrading engine monitor to a certified version.
Lose the DME and ADF.
TT has no meaning, it’s more about how it was treated…was it in a flight school or just make lots of x-country trips?

How come your 430 is not approved for IFR?
 
That placard "GPS Not Approved for IFR Navigation" was probably installed when the 430 was installed as a Non-WAAS version. The WAAS version is STC'ed and is approved for IFR Navigation. I think that placard can be removed.

It really depends on how much you want to spend. You could go as simple as a pair of G5's with interface to your STEC for under $10,000. You could spend $27k and get a 10" Skyview with ADS-B, HSI and engine monitor.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
I would consider upgrading engine monitor to a certified version.
Lose the DME and ADF.
TT has no meaning, it’s more about how it was treated…was it in a flight school or just make lots of x-country trips?

How come your 430 is not approved for IFR?
Click to expand...

That sticker is gone. I took 430 out and replaced with a 430w. The old 430 would not pass the start up test. It was a trainer but I put 100 or more a year on x country trips


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Jesse Saint said:
That placard "GPS Not Approved for IFR Navigation" was probably installed when the 430 was installed as a Non-WAAS version. The WAAS version is STC'ed and is approved for IFR Navigation. I think that placard can be removed.

It really depends on how much you want to spend. You could go as simple as a pair of G5's with interface to your STEC for under $10,000. You could spend $27k and get a 10" Skyview with ADS-B, HSI and engine monitor.
Click to expand...

I was told my autopilot would not work with the dynon, not true? Would be nice to have a big screen to have all instead of Aspen or G5’s


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Torque beast said:
but the 430 screen is peeling and needs sent off.
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How do you feel about an IFD440?
Torque beast said:
Just want some newer equipment to get rid of vacuum pump and be a solid IFR set up.
Click to expand...
That's an STEC 60 so that means your autopilot is rate based and you are free to choose whatever attitude indicator you want, right? Rip out the vacuum, put in a pair of G5's or G275's and call it a day.

While you're at the avionics shop, a PMA450b would make a nice slide-in replacement for that GMA340.

Also, is that a GTX345?
MooneyDriver78 said:
Lose the DME and ADF.
Click to expand...
Agree on the ADF. Sort of disagree on the DME. If the DME is working and you have some confidence it will continue to do so, don't dump it.
 
asicer said:
How do you feel about an IFD440?

That's an STEC 60 so that means your autopilot is rate based and you are free to choose whatever attitude indicator you want, right? Rip out the vacuum, put in a pair of G5's or G275's and call it a day.

While you're at the avionics shop, a PMA450b would make a nice slide-in replacement for that GMA340.

Also, is that a GTX345?

Agree on the ADF. Sort of disagree on the DME. If the DME is working and you have some confidence it will continue to do so, don't dump it.
Click to expand...

No issue with the 440

It’s a Garmin 335

DME still works but no telling how long

Does Aspen have more viewable real estate vs Garmin G5 or 275? I flew one plane with a G5 and it seemed very small


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Torque beast said:
Does Aspen have more viewable real estate vs Garmin G5 or 275? I flew one plane with a G5 and it seemed very small
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Probably, but my personal preference is for more redundancy than a single-screen Aspen can offer.
 
Craig HARNDEN said:
I’m excited to share your upgrade experience. ‘let me know if you have already done yours?
Craig
Click to expand...

I have not pulled the trigger on anything yet. Everyone I talk to has something different they would do so trying to gather all ideas and then decide what works for me. Some say Aspen and Avidyne and others say stay all Garmin because that’s what everyone wants so resale will be better if I ever decide to sell my plane. My thinking is no matter what I put in there it will be outdated in 6 months anyway. I wish there was something like a hub that would just Bluetooth to my screen of choice like snapping in 2 large IPads


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Groundpounder said:
Your budget will determine what you put in.

This is what $75k-ish gets you

View attachment 99149
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Very nice and I would love to have that but not sure I want to spend that kind of coin on a plane that has over 8k hrs. However I may change my mind. I’m thinking 20-30k right now


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Torque beast said:
Very nice and I would love to have that but not sure I want to spend that kind of coin on a plane that has over 8k hrs. However I may change my mind. I’m thinking 20-30k right now


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Click to expand...

My suggestion:

Dump the DME and ADF.

Dual GI-275's

New engine monitor

Have the panel repainted

That should be less than $30k, you'll have a functional, reliable panel at that point.

If you end up with extra money in the budget, get a GTN-650xi, and move the 430W to the #2 spot.
 
Pair of G5s get you the “rid vac pump” you are looking for in the original post. Saves $ over the GI275.

Upgrade for the sake upgrade - EDM 830. Saves $ over the other monitors, plus keeps your gauges for redundancy if they still work, you see everything on one screen, and you can set your own limits since it’s not primary.

Upgrade for the sake of upgrade - Slide an IFD-440 in place of the 430W. Saves money over a 650, and you can fly with the IFD-100 app with a huge 2nd screen.

My 2 cents.
 
Just put in a Garmin GPS 175, small screen but operationally it will do the same as it's big brothers at much less cost.
 
Dual 275s, ditch the ADF and the DME (remember, WAAS GPS distance is acceptable to use in lieu of DME so save the weight, power consumption, and clutter), also I'm not sure why there's such an obsession with an engine monitor but if it's a must and you're going to make the investment to pay someone to run wires and junk all through your firewall, you might as well run another 275 in EIS mode. With the right set of probes you'll have all the features you could possibly want.

Why you would get rid of a functional GNS in favor of an Avidyne unit is beyond me. I wouldn't touch anything from the KX165 up. Also, looks like you've got at least a GTX335 if not a 345. That's a win!

This could all be handled relatively inexpensively with some judicious decision making. Dropping coin on an IFD440 just so your GPS is newer seems like a really crummy idea. Same goes for the audio panel.

What's more annoying: a tiny bit of screen peeling on an otherwise functional unit or spending thousands on a nit-pick that could've been spent on annual expenses, fuel, insurance, a new headset, etc?
 
Torque beast said:
Would like to tap in the knowledge here and get some opinions. I am wanting to upgrade my avionics in my F33a but not sure which route to go. It has 430w , kx165, DME, ADF all of which work but the 430 screen is peeling and needs sent off. Plane has 8k TT so may not be worth spending a lot for upgrades unless I know without a doubt I will keep it forever. Just want some newer equipment to get rid of vacuum pump and be a solid IFR set up. What would you do?
7bcc861198013a8bbde324fa3a9617db.jpg

6a886822c6f5ae02208c0e773c88811d.jpg

52187cb63d32afe0e10984e799bf8cde.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Your IFR setup sounds pretty solid to me already — you can ship your 430W to Garmin and get it back like new for a (relatively) small investment. I'd keep at least one of the DME or ADF to improve your backup options during a GPS outage (I chose ADF, but you might have different preferences).

If you want to spend a bit more, maybe install an FS 210 to allow your tablet to link to your GNS 430W, transfer flight plans, etc, which will give you a much better GPS interface without a major $$$ upgrade — after all, aside from its 1990s-era display, the 430 is still a solid unit.

You have an autopilot already? (I'm on my phone, and can't see much detail in the panel pics).

D
 
If your autopilot has GPSS it will still work with newer GPS receivers. If it's rate based you will need to upgrade it to work with a G5 is my understanding when I spoke with Garmin several years ago unless you retain the HSI. This is the issue I am faced with my airplane. Everything in it is old so upgrading one thing renders the rest pretty much useless.
 
Der Fliegermeister said:
Why you would get rid of a functional GNS in favor of an Avidyne unit is beyond me.
Click to expand...
Apparently the screen has issues, the extent to which isn't very clear.
Der Fliegermeister said:
Same goes for the audio panel.
Click to expand...
An audio panel upgrade would be a slide-in so that cuts down on installation cost. Also, the audio panel itself is relatively cheap compared to the rest.
 
Grum.Man said:
If it's rate based you will need to upgrade it to work with a G5 is my understanding when I spoke with Garmin several years ago.
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Are you sure you aren't confusing rate based with attitude based?
 
asicer said:
Are you sure you aren't confusing rate based with attitude based?
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Nope. The G5 doesnt have an analog output the autopilot would need. Again this is based on what the Garmin guys said at airventure 2019.
 
asicer said:
Apparently the screen has issues, the extent to which isn't very clear.

An audio panel upgrade would be a slide-in so that cuts down on installation cost. Also, the audio panel itself is relatively cheap compared to the rest.
Click to expand...

You're still suggesting $1,800 just for Bluetooth capability. You could literally buy two Bose A20s for that money and Bluetooth to those for music etc.

I see zero benefit.
 
Der Fliegermeister said:
You're still suggesting $1,800 just for Bluetooth capability. You could literally buy two Bose A20s for that money and Bluetooth to those for music etc.

I see zero benefit.
Click to expand...

The A20s Bluetooth is just for phone calls, does not feed music

The biggest plus is being able to feed audio alerts from your EFD/iPad to the intercom.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
The A20s Bluetooth is just for phone calls, does not feed music

The biggest plus is being able to feed audio alerts from your EFD/iPad to the intercom.
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Bluetooth music to the A20 has been a thing since 2015. I would guess yours predates that update.
 
Der Fliegermeister said:
You're still suggesting $1,800 just for Bluetooth capability. You could literally buy two Bose A20s for that money and Bluetooth to those for music etc.
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No, not just that. There's also 3D audio (HRTF), recording/playback, the aforementioned audio alerts and you can get an extra USB charge port as a nice bonus.

Also, if your music player is Bluetooth'ed to your A20 then what's your passengers going to listen to?
 
Autopilot is using turn coordinator. Will G275’s remove vacuum pump? I assume so. I don’t have an issue with the 430w but wasn’t sure if flying IFR would be more user friendly with a newer unit. If not, I could send in and get refurbished but never used a newer unit so don’t know. I consider my IPad very essential as I use foreflight and traffic displayed through sentry. I still have my old 430 as well but don’t really see a use for it as a secondary. Here is a more recent pic of the 430w. Hard to see in certain light/angle
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Grum.Man said:
Nope. The G5 doesnt have an analog output the autopilot would need. Again this is based on what the Garmin guys said at airventure 2019.
Click to expand...
The GAD29B does have analog output, but only for heading (good enough for a rate based A/P) and not attitude.

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Der Fliegermeister said:
I'm not sure why there's such an obsession with an engine monitor but if it's a must and you're going to make the investment to pay someone to run wires and junk all through your firewall, you might as well run another 275 in EIS mode.
Click to expand...
I think an EDM830 can re-use the probes from the EDM700 that's already in there.
 
Yes I use Bluetooth in our A20’s tied to my iPad so I can hear warnings from foreflight and music when I want. So 2 G275’s will get rid of vacuum pump but will I have GPSS?


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MooneyDriver78 said:
Yeah, 2012. Didn’t know they updated it, mine does have audio jack I can use.
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Might look into an upgrade. Can't say for certain, but I would imagine they have some sort of trade-in deal. If not, you could probably get a handful of hundreds for yours and pony-up the rest.

I'm more of a Lightspeed guy. The Bose hurts my head for some reason. But it is a quality product.
 
asicer said:
In your case, only if you get 2 of them. Same with G5.
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The 275s are approved for full redundancy if you buy the proper versions per the STC. The dual G5s sometimes require retaining your existing attitude indicator if it's part of an existing autopilot system. Same goes for the existing HSI of interfaced to an existing autopilot system.

Haven't had eyes on the latest revision yet. But everything I can smell in the winds of change suggests that the 275s are receiving a lot more in-house attention from Garmin. They know it's a game-changer
 
Der Fliegermeister said:
The dual G5s sometimes require retaining your existing attitude indicator if it's part of an existing autopilot system. Same goes for the existing HSI of interfaced to an existing autopilot system.
Click to expand...
Right, but the OP has an STEC 60 so the existing AI does not need to stay. And per the screen cap in post #31, the HSI does not need to stay either.
 
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