Actually Heard This Yesterday

Doug Reid

Doug Reid

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Doug Reid
I have seen several threads regarding proper position reporting when vfr at an uncontrolled airport. Yesterday morning I heard radio traffic from a nearby airport where the pilot reported he was inbound on a practice rnav aporoach. A few seconds later, I heard another pilot say “ xyz trafiic, not all of us are instrument pilots, can you advise position, altitude and runway you will be using ?” Good work !
 
I had that not to long ago. I usually go with the flow & figure things out. This instance I was on a mid field downwind when a guy calls an IFR point in a seldom used approach to the same runway. I asked him for clarification(distance) from the runway.

Once I saw I was safely ahead of him, all was well.

Another case on a runway with a normal ‘left’ pattern, a transient calls setting up for a right downwind. I kinda left him be, since I was ahead of him, but made my calls. It was kinda irksome when he calls that he was in a ‘normal’ pattern, but didn’t see traffic(me) on final. At the time I was a bit under 1 mile final, starting to consider him more of a collision threat.

Next time I’ll tell him to enter a left pattern, maybe report for a vision test too.
 
My call yesterday was 12 miles NW, straight in RNAV 14 approach.

Is that good enough?


And even if you ARE an instrument pilot unless you're local and flown that approach a bunch you still wouldn't know if the other guy us 2 5 10 or wherever out when he says he's at DPSHT. At untowered I will call distances instead of fix names when inbound. No one gives a F about fix names except controllers and CFIIs wearing epaulettes
 
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EdFred said:
My call yesterday was 12 miles NW, straight in RNAV 14 approach.

Is that good enough?


And even if you ARE an instrument pilot unless you're local and flown that approach a bunch you still wouldn't know if the other guy us 2 5 10 or wherever out when he says he's at DPSHT. At untowered I will call distances instead of fix names when inbound. No one gives a F about fix names except controllers and CFIIs wearing epaulettes
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I'm not a CFII, should I buy shirts with epaulettes? I mean... They command respect. Don't they?
 
sourdough44 said:
I had that not to long ago. I usually go with the flow & figure things out. This instance I was on a mid field downwind when a guy calls an IFR point in a seldom used approach to the same runway. I asked him for clarification(distance) from the runway.

Once I saw I was safely ahead of him, all was well.

Another case on a runway with a normal ‘left’ pattern, a transient calls setting up for a right downwind. I kinda left him be, since I was ahead of him, but made my calls. It was kinda irksome when he calls that he was in a ‘normal’ pattern, but didn’t see traffic(me) on final. At the time I was a bit under 1 mile final, starting to consider him more of a collision threat.

Next time I’ll tell him to enter a left pattern, maybe report for a vision test too.
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One mile final? You ATP airliner drivers sure fly some BIG patterns. What ever happened to keeping the runway 1/4-1/2 mile off your wing on downwind and turning base when the end of said runway passes behind you at 45 degrees? That would put your final leg at a lot less than a mile, (which is probably longer than the whole runway at a lot of places.) ;)
 
EdFred said:
My call yesterday was 12 miles NW, straight in RNAV 14 approach.

Is that good enough?
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Should be good enough.

I would say the same but on reflection might say ‘less’ in terms of just saying, “12 miles NW strait in runway 14 practice approach”.

My thinking is that the RNAV call just serves to confuse some VFR pilots. No waypoints, no approach names, just position and intent in VFR terms.




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I call distance and altitude, but usually add that I'm on a practice approach. Something like, "xx traffic, Cherokee XYZ is 10 north, 1400', inbound practice approach rwy 18". I throw in the practice approach bit just in case someone might make an adjustment for me if needed. If there is a potential conflict, I'll break off early and avoid interfering with the pattern of course.
 
Bill Watson said:
Should be good enough.

I would say the same but on reflection might say ‘less’ in terms of just saying, “12 miles NW strait in runway 14 practice approach”.

My thinking is that the RNAV call just serves to confuse some VFR pilots. No waypoints, no approach names, just position and intent in VFR terms.




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Due to visibility, it wasn't really practice, which is why I didn't say practice approach. It was legal VFR, and I wasn't on a clearance but the haze was nasty yesterday, so I loaded it up and flew it.
 
At an uncontrolled airport, it's courteous to give a distance from the runway on final so other traffic in the pattern can judge how they can fit into a safe order for landing. Pattern traffic doesn't need to know if you are on a practice IFR approach or not. So, "N1234, 6 mile final for 35" is sufficient. (There may be some gripers about flying straight-in's but tough noogies: it's not illegal anyway.) If the field is IFR, then letting traffic know you are actually IMC and may be emerging from the clouds, then something like "N1234, IFR, GPS 35 approach, 6 mile final" may communicate the idea that you won't be able to see and avoid until the last moments before landing. Multiple calls from 10 miles in are helpful to ensure that someone in the pattern doesn't miss your call. Stay safe out there, and be proactive. (And good on the pilots in the pattern mentioned in the original post for querying the IFR aircraft for a useful position report! VFR pilots have no clue where approach fixes are or how instrument approaches are constructed.)
 
I agree. You can say you're at XYZ intersection, or WXYZ at the FAF and it means nothing to anyone without an instrument chart in front of them. Heck, I'm not instrument current and if you use these points on an instrument approach into my home field I still may not have any idea where you are. Speak in VFR and everyone around you will have an idea where you are. Only an idea, but that's better than no idea. Good for the anonymous pilot quoted in the OP's post.
 
It’s ironic that an IR pilot, who has received training in that special voodoo, doesn’t actually know where the airport is in relation to their aircraft, so they have to announce to everyone on frequency that they’re important, yet lost, on a CAVU day, “practicing” being lost. Mastery of your instruments, and knowing the exact location thereof, would seem to indicate that the whole notion of flying an instrument approach is understood by the driver. Hollering, “Bigman 69Whisky is at the Foxy IAF on the RNAV for the active, all traffic in the area please eff off and get outta my way, I’m PRACTICING here, and I’m nervous, scared, and have no idea where I really am, straight in,” seems like poor airmanship. Let’s try to be professional out there. At least when I call inbound from the southeast in my 150, 5 miles out at 3000, I notify everybody that I will EVENTUALLY be there in about 20 minutes, so leave my beer in the cooler til I get there. ;)
 
Doug Reid said:
Good work
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This is one of my pet peeves too! And unfortunately everyone here does it.. I feel bad for the folks based out of Oceanside.. what's odd to me is most instructors don't correct it. I cringe every time I safety for someone and they say "Oceanside traffic, beige Archer is inbound from hold VOR Alpha conducting low approach" - what in the absolute F does that mean to a VFR person? How about "Beige archer is 3 miles northwest at 2,500, will overfly the airport remaining above 1,100 then departing to the northeast" ..

asicer said:
task saturated
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I mean... that's not really an excuse. "Sorry NTSB, I caused a midair because I was too busy looking at the VOR needle and DME to correctly tell the locals where I was"

Lachlan said:
It’s ironic that an IR pilot, who has received training in that special voodoo, doesn’t actually know where the airport is in relation to their aircraft
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..and it's completely crazy.. people look at me like I have 10 heads when I ask them "how far are we from the airport" .. seriously? "I'm 2.8 miles from the next step down" - people would hate me a CFI... but damn would I turn out safe, professional, legit pilots.
 
Bill Watson said:
Should be good enough.

I would say the same but on reflection might say ‘less’ in terms of just saying, “12 miles NW strait in runway 14 practice approach”.

My thinking is that the RNAV call just serves to confuse some VFR pilots. No waypoints, no approach names, just position and intent in VFR terms.
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I'm not sure that 100% of VFR-only pilots understand "practice approach" to mean that it's a practice instrument approach. I'm thinking that it's probably better to include the words 'instrument approach" or "practice instrument approach" along with the VFR-type position-and-intentions report.
 
Yeah, you have to compartmentalize the communications and separate accordingly. Flew up to an uncontrolled field in Bay Area a couple weeks ago that was 200ft above minimums. So even though there wouldn't be pattern traffic I'd made the call of "Cirrus XYZ, on the RNAV 36, 9 miles to the south, landing runway 36 straight in" or whatever. Then update accordingly. It's a mouthful, sure, but everyone will understand where you are.
 
Or, my personal favourite - when people announce that they are practicing an instrument approach to an airport 600nm away using a VOR in the flying training area.
 
When I was working on my private ticket, I was returning from a solo flight on downwind making position calls. I heard one of the flight schools other planes call that they were inbound an a practice NDB for the same runway I was using. I looked for them while I was on base but I had no real idea where to look and I figured they were still miles from the airport. Caught a glimpse of them as I was turning final and they were a couple hundred yards out and bit higher up. They peeled off and went around.

The thing is, it was the schools chief instructor that made the radio call that they were on a practice NDB approach. That CFI heard me in the pattern before he made his call and he knew I was a private student so he knew I would have had no idea where the NDB approach was and yet he still made the radio call that way. Some habits die hard.
 
I always assume that other people only care about where I am, what I am planning to do, and whether it will interfere with their plans. So I put myself in their shoes and tell them (by "them," I mean both the invisible traffic everywhere in or near the pattern and on the ground, in addition to the planes I have actually seen or heard) what I would want to know. "Podunk traffic, Bugsmasher 23-bravo is 10 miles southeast, straight in runway 30, Podunk." I'll later make another call with specific landing intentions, whether full stop or low approach or somewhere between.

Nobody cares when I cross the initial, intermediate, or final approach fix. Nobody cares if I'm on a practice approach or a real one. Nobody actually cares if I'm IFR or VFR. Nobody even cares about my altitude: All that matters is whether my flight path will intersect their pattern altitude (spoiler alert: it always will). If anyone wants to know more about me than where I am and what I'm going to do, they can ask. Succinct radio calls also encourage others to talk by keeping the frequency open.
 
I have been preaching VFR lingo in VMC since my student pilot days. Not all IR pilots listen, though. Many of them are too engrossed in their egos. And many of them have no clue that there are still VFR pilots out there.

As far as practice approaches in VMC, shouldn't the SP know whereTF they are and make the VFR calls? At least that's one way to fix the problem. Or the PIC could ask the SP for distance to rwy if he wants to talk on the radio. Doesn't matter who talks (should be agreed-upon before the practice flight) but someone needs to be responsible for VFR minima and separation. *shrug*

Though I have gotten task-saturated on an instrument approach before with multiple VFR aircraft in the vicinity. So in the interest of safety, I just told my CFII "too many bogies, YOU talk to them, look for them!" and he obliged.
 
MetalCloud said:
Yeah, you have to compartmentalize the communications and separate accordingly. Flew up to an uncontrolled field in Bay Area a couple weeks ago that was 200ft above minimums. So even though there wouldn't be pattern traffic I'd made the call of "Cirrus XYZ, on the RNAV 36, 9 miles to the south, landing runway 36 straight in" or whatever. Then update accordingly. It's a mouthful, sure, but everyone will understand where you are.
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I assume it wasn't Watsonville, as for WVI 200 feet above minimums is a perfect VFR day. I remember popping out of the approach from the south where the fog was probably a mile from the runway and there were still several planes in the pattern. As the fog came in from the west they just all switched to the other runway. I was happy to wait for my IFR departure and get back into the clouds and away from all of them.
 
Lachlan said:
One mile final? You ATP airliner drivers sure fly some BIG patterns. What ever happened to keeping the runway 1/4-1/2 mile off your wing on downwind and turning base when the end of said runway passes behind you at 45 degrees? That would put your final leg at a lot less than a mile, (which is probably longer than the whole runway at a lot of places.) ;)
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ATP?? Heck, most student pilots around here are apparently taught to fly B-52 patterns in the 172. I've heard 'em turn final while I'm on downwind about mid-field, and it's half a minute before I spot them and figure I'll have to extend while they drag that sucker in from 2 miles out. It's almost comical.
 
DaleB said:
ATP?? Heck, most student pilots around here are apparently taught to fly B-52 patterns in the 172. I've heard 'em turn final while I'm on downwind about mid-field, and it's half a minute before I spot them and figure I'll have to extend while they drag that sucker in from 2 miles out. It's almost comical.
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The irony is that B-52's don't actually fly wide patterns. I learned last summer that B-52's (at least those at Minot AFB) usually arrive in formation and do an overhead break. I think we need to adjust this analogy, maybe to make fun of regional jets flying base legs longer than their entire planned route.
 
iamtheari said:
The irony is that B-52's don't actually fly wide patterns. I learned last summer that B-52's (at least those at Minot AFB) usually arrive in formation and do an overhead break. I think we need to adjust this analogy, maybe to make fun of regional jets flying base legs longer than their entire planned route.
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I think a B-52 in a tight overhead break would still be WAY farther out than a 172 has any business being.

But we can use EC-130s if it makes you feel better. :)
 
How about this:

"Hey Y'all! This here's Cessna fav fur nyner. I'm fav mauls nerthwist at twunny fav hunnert feet, inbound fer a looowww approach, runway two fav. Imma doin' summa thet instroomint stuff out hyar, but doncha worry 'bout thet none..."

I'd call that an excellent initial call on CTAF.
 
IK04 said:
How about this:

"Hey Y'all! This here's Cessna fav fur nyner. I'm fav mauls nerthwist at twunny fav hunnert feet, inbound fer a looowww approach, runway two fav. Imma doin' summa thet instroomint stuff out hyar, but doncha worry 'bout thet none..."

I'd call that an excellent initial call on CTAF.
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Thar ye gow.
 
I was flying into our local airport yesterday and I made my downwind call. Someone in an Arrow made on a 3-mile RNAV approach call. Then a few seconds later I heard a different voice say they were an Arrow on a 5-mile RNAV approach call. I asked if there were two planes because I heard a 3-mile, then a 5-mile call. The guy responded he was the only plane and they were on a 5-mile final. I said okay and announced my base turn, then final for 17 full stop. I landed and when I was rolling out, he called Arrow on short final. I turned off hte taxiway and made it all the way back to my hangar and shut down before he landed! Really short final I guess. Oh well, I'm sure he's telling stories about the jerk that turned in front of him...
 
Lowflynjack said:
I was flying into our local airport yesterday and I made my downwind call. Someone in an Arrow made on a 3-mile RNAV approach call. Then a few seconds later I heard a different voice say they were an Arrow on a 5-mile RNAV approach call. I asked if there were two planes because I heard a 3-mile, then a 5-mile call. The guy responded he was the only plane and they were on a 5-mile final. I said okay and announced my base turn, then final for 17 full stop. I landed and when I was rolling out, he called Arrow on short final. I turned off hte taxiway and made it all the way back to my hangar and shut down before he landed! Really short final I guess. Oh well, I'm sure he's telling stories about the jerk that turned in front of him...
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Can't blame the guy if he is out there complaining about you. If you were fighting a 120-knot headwind and someone cut in when you were on a 30-minute final, you'd be upset, too.
 
iamtheari said:
Can't blame the guy if he is out there complaining about you. If you were fighting a 120-knot headwind and someone cut in when you were on a 30-minute final, you'd be upset, too.
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He was on the ground in 20 minutes tops!
 
Lowflynjack said:
If I'm on a 5 mile final (there is no such thing according to the FAA) I would yield to the aircraft in the pattern like I'm required to do by law. I also wouldn't call short final when it wasn't true. I was off the runway and shut down before he even landed. It in no way affected his landing.
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I fear that my humor got a little bit too dry this time. But I made myself laugh, so I stand behind my joke.
 
chartbundle said:
I assume it wasn't Watsonville, as for WVI 200 feet above minimums is a perfect VFR day. I remember popping out of the approach from the south where the fog was probably a mile from the runway and there were still several planes in the pattern. As the fog came in from the west they just all switched to the other runway. I was happy to wait for my IFR departure and get back into the clouds and away from all of them.
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It was, actually! Truth be told, I hate flying into there. It's usually such a ****show. And yeah, I'm totally with you on getting IFR departure and getting the hell out of there. I had that exact same feeling.
 
Lowflynjack said:
I was flying into our local airport yesterday and I made my downwind call. Someone in an Arrow made on a 3-mile RNAV approach call. Then a few seconds later I heard a different voice say they were an Arrow on a 5-mile RNAV approach call. I asked if there were two planes because I heard a 3-mile, then a 5-mile call. The guy responded he was the only plane and they were on a 5-mile final. I said okay and announced my base turn, then final for 17 full stop. I landed and when I was rolling out, he called Arrow on short final. I turned off hte taxiway and made it all the way back to my hangar and shut down before he landed! Really short final I guess. Oh well, I'm sure he's telling stories about the jerk that turned in front of him...
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So there I was flying my Arrow into an uncontrolled field yesterday, when all of a sudden some cowboy cuts me off on my 5 mile, 45-minute final. Probably a Cirrus guy. ;)
 
MetalCloud said:
It was, actually! Truth be told, I hate flying into there. It's usually such a ****show. And yeah, I'm totally with you on getting IFR departure and getting the hell out of there. I had that exact same feeling.
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I don’t miss flying at WVI. I don’t know why - maybe the proximity to Santa Cruz - it’s such a magnet for stupid pilot tricks.
 
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