Wings of Hope Fall 2018 Raffle airplane announced

AggieMike88

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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
Received a postcard today announcing their fall raffle. N5200T is a 1972 Piper Cherokee 180, serial # 28-7205246.

From their web page....

This beautiful Cherokee will be delivered with a zero-time engine and a fresh annual. It has a white fuselage with dark blue and gold accent stripes, blue and gray upholstery, blue carpet, and blue with tan trim interior. The avionics will be updated with dual COM/NAVs, GPS and an ADS-B IN/OUT equipped transponder.​

2018_raffle_cherokee_08_feature.png


More details can be found at http://wingsofhope.ngo/airplane-raffle/

Tickets go on sale on September 17, 2018 beginning at 6:00 am (CT). Only 4000 tickets will be sold.
 
@Ken Pedersen ... aren't you one of the PoA gang who is associated with Wings of Hope?
 
Oh! I really like that! I could see myself flying that beauty. Wish they would include some interior shots.
 
Oh! I really like that! I could see myself flying that beauty. Wish they would include some interior shots.
Which is why I pinged Ken... if he is part of WoH, perhaps he can provide more photos.
 
Well, there are some interior shots if you follow the link, but they say the pics are "before the avionics upgrade", so I guess we need to check back later.
 
This is a 72. Is that the year they lengthened it or was that 73?
I looked at 180s when I was plane shopping and the shorter ones had useless back seats.
 
The Arrow received a 5" stretch in 1972. The 180 line ended in 1972 and the Challenger came into being in 1973, and it also had the 5" stretch. In 1974 they changed the name from Challenger to Archer.

But I think the 3rd window means this one has the extra room in the back.
 
That’s going to look really good at POA fly-in’s. I think I might just buy a ticket for this one...
Yup. Already have calendar alerts to wake me up in time to make the ticket purchase.

This past spring, I didn't remember the raffle in time and all tickets had sold out.
 
I just wonder in what context they are using the term "zero time" in regards to the engine. Do they really mean zero time or do they mean zero time since overhaul?
 
@SkyDog58 .... often one of the guys who is involved in WoH contributes to PoA. Hopefully he will be by soon to answer questions.
 
I looked at 180s when I was plane shopping and the shorter ones had useless back seats.

Ive had 4 adults in my plane for a few 2 hour flights. We were all comfy, heck one angel flight I had a rather large person in the back and a co pilot up front. Dude in the back was so comfy he fell alseep. The stretched only buys you 6", granted it feels like a good bit but the short body's aren't bad at all.
 
This is a 72. Is that the year they lengthened it or was that 73?
The PA-28-180 got the third window and new throttle-quadrant panel in 1968 ("Cherokee 180D"), and the fuselage stretch for 1973 ("Cherokee Challenger"). Similarly, the PA-28-235 in 1969 ("Cherokee 235C") and 1973 ("Cherokee Charger") respectively.

It was the Cherokee Arrow that led the way with all these improvements. The first Cherokee Arrow debuted in 1967 with the third window and throttle quadrant, and introduced the fuselage stretch for 1972 ("Cherokee Arrow II").

So yes, all of these models did have the third windows on the short cabins for a few years.
 
The PA-28-180 got the third window and new throttle-quadrant panel in 1968 ("Cherokee 180D"), and the fuselage stretch for 1973 ("Cherokee Challenger"). Similarly, the PA-28-235 in 1969 ("Cherokee 235C") and 1973 respectively ("Cherokee Charger").

It was the Cherokee Arrow that led the way with all these improvements. The first Cherokee Arrow debuted in 1967 with the third window and throttle quadrant, and introduced the fuselage stretch for 1972 ("Cherokee Arrow II").

So yes, all of these models did have the third windows on the short cabins for a few years.
Man you are a history whiz!
 
Man you are a history whiz!
Wikipedia ? o_O ;)
Nah, just a jillion hours with my head in airplane magazines in the '60s and '70s, plus two years as a CFI and sales demo pilot for a Piper dealer in the early '70s. It was my job to know the products and how they stacked up against the competition. I still have all the brochures and several of the owners manuals from that period, as well as the "Demonstration Procedures" booklet that Piper issued to sales pilots for the whole line.
 
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Nah, just a jillion hours with my head in airplane magazines in the '60s and '70s, plus two years as a CFI and sales demo pilot for a Piper dealer in the early '70s. It was my job to know the products and how they stacked up against the competition. I still have all the brochures and several of the owners manuals from that period, as well as the "Demonstration Procedures" booklet that Piper issued to sales pilots for the whole line.
You’re definitely my go to person if I ever have a question on one of these airplanes. Enjoy reading your posts, as they educate me.
 
Sorry to be late in chiming in.....been preoccupied with visiting grandkids. Meanwhile, back to your questions: I'm a purchasing volunteer at Wings and I just bought the new Garmin avionics for this plane. They're not yet installed but will be in place at the time of the raffle's drawing. By zero time engine it means exactly that, i.e., a new (remanufactured to "new" specs) engine, not zero time SMOH. We even plan to break it in for you! I'll try to check in more often to answer any other questions, OK? ....and mega-thanks for your continued support of our Medical Relief & Air Transport Program — so win or lose, you know your purchase is changing and saving lives.
 
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Hey all - I know a lot of people get excited by these raffles, and I used to be among them. In fact I won the raffle in 2015. But I must urge a certain degree of caution based on my experience unfortunately. Given this is a forum, I’ll try to keep this reasonably short, but I can elaborate and document if anyone has a particular interest. My primary reason for writing is to shed some light to some disingenuous, dishonest and/or bad-faith behaviors I’ve experienced from Wings of Hope over the last year and hopefully prevent someone else from ending up in a similar situation. Admittedly, there is an element of self serving here in that I still hope WoH will ultimately make good on their promises but even if not, I hope not to see someone else get burned. I’ve summarized immediately below, with a longer (but still abbreviated) explanation below that.


SUPER-SHORT OVERVIEW:

Wings of Hope made a promise, in writing, to cover the cost repairs to my aircraft related to structural problems that predated my owning it. The amount due is over $20k. Seemingly at the whim of a relatively new CEO, WoH have delayed, refused and avoided payment for nearly a year and I am now forced to sell the aircraft to cover the repair costs. This leaves me with no aircraft, a year behind in my training and with thousands spent on insurance and hangar for a year without use of the plane, not to mention hours spent pursuing a resolution, obnoxious if not abusive treatment by WoH’s CEO and being portrayed as a liar and worse by him to the repair station who worked on the plane. I respect what Wings of Hope purports to do, and support aviation charity, but I must advise against trusting their word (or in fact written claims) and I certainly do not respect or approve of the current CEO or his approach to dealing with supporters.


MORE INFORMATION:

As mentioned above I won the 2015 raffle. The prize was a 1972 C172L with a STOL kit that was claimed to be “in great condition” and was offered with a fresh annual. Initially all dealings were great - the airplane looked and felt good, and I proceeded to finish my PPL in it. WoH had to issue a second Bill of Sale because I was registering to an LLC and the first one wasn’t a perfect match so the FAA rejected it - WoH was responsive and helpful in that process. The only real trouble with the plane was that we never had complete logs - logs were from 1990 onward, coinciding with a new engine being installed.


We encountered a few service items along the way but figured it was an older airplane (and a nearly free one at that), so we fixed them and moved on. Last year (Feb 2017) we started an annual which found a number of issues, then as we started to put the plane back together we discovered that the STOL kit had been installed over damaged wings. This precipitated careful inspection of the flight surfaces and we found a number of discrepancies of a structural nature which my A&P said were airworthiness issues.

At this point I contacted WoH in the (faint) hopes that they might have more information than we had received. I spoke with the Director of Maintenance at that time, one Steve Long, who suggested we seek a second opinion. We did so, asking a group specializing in structural repair to look the plane over. They generated a nearly identical set of squawks, and reiterated that they were airworthiness issues. These structural issues predated my owning the aircraft, but being a student pilot I didn’t know enough to recognize them and we didn’t ask (nor did WoH offer or suggest) a “pre-buy” type inspection. I sent the second inspection back to Steve Long since we had been discussing the situation, and asked again for any input he might have. To reiterate - we asked for information.


At this point WoH, via Steve Long, responded (in a longer message) that “We will be glad to cover the cost of repairs.” I was surprised, but thankful and responded in kind, thanking him for that support. This was particularly helpful as the resulting bill was more than I could approve without making some other arrangements. We then approved the repairs to be made by the specialist who had done the second inspection. That work was completed in November 2017 (excepting the airbox which they withheld pending payment).


To date WoH has refused to honor this offer, made in writing, by the head of their maintenance department. The CEO has been rude to me and to the repair station, has suggested that it’s ridiculous for us to ask them to pay (we didn’t until they offered in writing and we acted upon that offer), and has suggested that they bear no responsibility (I must respectfully disagree - they may not have had any before promising to pay, but I believe they certainly do now). I am in the midst of finalizing a formal agreement with the repair station to sell the aircraft and hopefully cover the ~$21k repair cost after which I will no longer have an airplane. I’ll have spend thousands of dollars on hangering and insuring the aircraft, delayed my flight training by over a year, and spent many hours and dollars pursuing the payment that was promised clearly in writing.


Along the way WoH has claimed they desired to settle the issue by non-cash methods and suggested various measures including buying parts at discounted rates for the repair station, giving another aircraft to the repair station, etc. The repair station was not willing to accept such offers in lieu of payment and pointed out (correctly i think) that the time for such offers would have been before the work was done, not after payment was due. When we (my attorney and I) recently suggested that perhaps WoH could offer another comparable aircraft to me instead (since I’m now selling the first one to cover the payment they are refusing to make) they asked a number of vague questions and have avoided making any offer to resolve the matter in the method they claim to prefer. I’m left forced to believe it was not a good-faith offer, merely an attempt at misdirection or delay.


In short...I owe over $20k to a repair station for repairs WoH had promised to cover, have spent thousands more on hanger and insurance of the aircraft that has been grounded for over 18 months, nearly a year of that awaiting the promised payment from WoH who have seemingly been using all the various suggestions purely as a delay tactic. I’ve been sent obnoxious and unreasonable letters from the CEO, been made out to be a liar to the repair station by his responses to them, and generally abused by an organization I formerly respected. I’m now forced to sell the aircraft to make good on the bill, and will then effectively be out a year of training time and thousands of dollars. I’d have been better off in terms of my training if I’d never won, even including the scholarship that came with the aircraft. Obviously more aggressive legal action is a very likely next step, but the fact remains that WoH has not stood by their word, or their aircraft.


On that basis, while I wholeheartedly support the purported mission of WoH and much of the work they do, I must advise anyone considering buying into this raffle to act cautiously. Insist on inspection of the aircraft before accepting it. And certainly don’t take anything on the word of WoH - if it isn’t in writing I wouldn’t trust it, and frankly at this point I don’t think you can trust what is in writing either. I certainly couldn’t.
 
How many annuals were done when you owned the plan? You indicate you had a few service items along the way. Nobody caught this issue? I have a feeling that if you had purchased this aircraft you'd likely just be stuck.
 
Hey all - I know a lot of people get excited by these raffles, and I used to be among them. In fact I won the raffle in 2015. But I must urge a certain degree of caution based on my experience unfortunately. ...
On that basis, while I wholeheartedly support the purported mission of WoH and much of the work they do, I must advise anyone considering buying into this raffle to act cautiously. Insist on inspection of the aircraft before accepting it. And certainly don’t take anything on the word of WoH - if it isn’t in writing I wouldn’t trust it, and frankly at this point I don’t think you can trust what is in writing either. I certainly couldn’t.
Normally, I'd say that "Don't look a gift horse ..." thing, but if the airplane wasn't airworthy when you took possession, that's quite another story.
But as @scorpio asks, how many annuals went by—how many mechanics missed the damage? (I'm sure your attorney has looked at all of the WoH paperwork; I'll venture to assume that they were delivering an airworthy craft.)
 
@scorpio You're correct, if I'd bought the aircraft I'd be in the same position...except I wouldn't have approved work and incurred the bill, just as I wouldn't have in this case had they not made the offer.
 
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@Kenny Phillips Whether it was airworth is certainly debatable. Some of the damage in question was subtle. Some was concealed under the STOL kit. I and others firmly believe that the damage existed the day we acquired the aircraft as we don't have any other way to account for it's existence.

Obviously nobody can go back and look at the aircraft the day it was delivered at this point. The issues were discovered on the second annual we performed. Again, you're all correct, but ultimately WoH offered to cover this, I acted on that offer, they then reneged leaving me committed to a bill I would not have incurred if not for their offer, and without other means to cover it. Surely you don't think that's how anyone should operate?
 
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If you had an annual and nothing was noted I don't think WoH had any duty to pay for anything. Sounds like they were unaware of any damage and didn't intentional or negligently misrepresent the aircraft. Unfortunate situation for sure.
 
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