When Will I Solo (asked many times I'm sure)

James331 said:
Most students have the "really I'm soloing NOW?!" reaction.
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Exactly what happened to me. I wanted to solo, knew I was progressing not great but ok. One day my CFI comes in after one lesson and tells me: "Next one is solo". I was: "Are you sure about that?" :)
 
i took my training in 1978,,,
i knew everything about flying,,, well,, except a whole lot about everything about flying....
my biggest problem,, really my only problem about flying,, was ,,,, landing.....
i finally got that down,, and felt pretty good about the airplane flying thing overall ...
i had not thought about my solo,, not pushed for it to happen,, nor held back for fear,,, i just flew...
one day,, at 7.2 hours,,, he got out,, told me to just go fly....
he didnt even cut my shirt,,,
the rest is just historical....
 
Cptwing said:
Hi, new member here, I have been taking flight lessons for about 2 moths now.
Currently I have 15.2 hours with 61 TO/LN. I have done everything in CFR 61.87
I train at a towered airport, so have plenty of ATC / Com experience. When I bring up the subject of solo with my CFI all I get is soon. When I pressed him he said he will not sign me off until I spend some time under the hood? WTF that is not even listed in 61.87? And if that be then fine I said lets do it then, his response soon? WTF?

I recently asked him about my IACRA application, he has not started it yet? And when I have a scheduled lesson it always seems to be well I think we will do this today, sound good as if he just makes it up as he goes. After the lesson we never sit down and discuss what went on good or bad?
I do not believe he keep any training/performance records of his student's. I should also mention he is 19 years old and graduated high school in 2017.

Everyone says what a great pilot and instructor he is. I am having my doubts and am wondering that maybe he is just gun shy about signing me or other students off. The IACRA thing is going to hold me up as well. I should also mention I have my 3rd class Med and got it before I even started, so that is not an issue.

I am seriously considering asking to switch instructors or even switching schools. I am hesitant as I know that this will set me back abit. Also I currently train on a P-28 and all the other schools around are C-172 and C-152.

Any advice or am I just overthinking this
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I think you have a bit of both going on here: over thinking and under informed by your CFI.

First, you are right around a very typical hour count to solo. I blew right by 15hrs and finally soloed around 3,512hrs (28hrs actually but felt like more). So I just bumped up the average :)

I think a person could have felt one of 2 ways once past the perceived "average": Why can't I figure this out? or Why am I being held back?

I know I was clearly in the "Why can't I figure this out" camp. So between lots of "almosts" and stubborn pride for not being "average" - the day I soloed I was quite a surprised and quite relieved. I was also quite ready. During those extra "13hrs" I was so frustrated I even asked my CFI if I should try another CFI. Maybe I should have? Eventually I did switch CFI's because I was pretty sure I was getting milked at the end.

What makes your case different and almost unique is that almost no one else is in the "Why am I being held back" group during solo. If you are truly that ready, I don't think any CFI would keep you from that big moment unless they think you are unsafe.

So my guess is that he thinks you are not safe enough yet to do it. Ironically, it might not even be your landings. It could be your slow flight, it could your landing speeds, etc.

At his age he's gonna learn some leadership skills one way or another. Either he will find out he should have soloed you and thus he was afraid to make a decision. Or he thinks you are not safe enough and isn't communicating to you.

Try it his way on the next hour - tell him you'd like to do that hood time! When finished, fly it all the way back and land it. Watch his reaction. And some irony, I had a fair amount of hood time in slow flight before I soloed.

I'm not saying you shouldn't talk to the Chief Pilot or even stick with this instructor. However, be equally prepared for an answer that doesn't go your way. If one thing, a few of your later responses indicated you have a high level of "expectation" right now...which can be dangerous.

Also, maybe others can help but why goes delaying IACRA here get in the way. Can't a temporary card be printed almost immediately after entry into the system ?

Dude, if you can land a plane half as good as you say you are you will get there. Just be sure you are safe and not pushing that out of pride, expectations or that you're spending more than you had planned.
 
I was the opposite of the OP, my instructor kinda forced me to solo. He kept asking me if I thought I was ready, my response was getting close. He mentioned you don’t have to grease every landing to solo, you just have to be safe and in control of the plane at all times.
I about crapped my pants when he told me he was getting out. It was very windy/gusty, not at all a day I wanted to solo.. He said give me 3 good ones any way I wanted.
My check ride wasn’t much different except it was raining too. That’s another good story.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Question for the CFI's of our group.... What are you looking for in your students that says they are ready for solo flight?
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I expect my students to fly safely and have a well-rounded understanding of the basics. They have to have good decision making skills and good judgement too, which is the difficult part for many.

Cptwing said:
I do not believe I came off as arrogant in my post, maybe you have these attitudes toward students because you suck as an instructor? And as far as IACRA why should I drive to the FSDO when I am paying him for it and it is his responsibility to initiate it!
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No, it's your responsibility to register with IACRA and fill out the 8710. It is the CFIs responsibility to sign it. I won't even get into the other parts of your post. If you want to solo you have to prove to your CFI that you're ready both skill wise and judgement wise. If you're constantly asking questions, acting like you don't need instruction/critique or otherwise not listening then you're not going to solo.

Salty said:
The worst student is the one who already knows it all.
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100%
 
These days I only teach tail wheel but I won’t solo a student until I’ve seen him/her make a lot of mistakes - and learn how to fix them. Then be able to demonstrate enough (stop & go) landings, straddling the centerline, in the touchdown zone, that we both (me and the student) feel confident in the outcome.
 
Cptwing said:
To those who say that the student should not be anxious or want to be cut loose to solo, I ask are you serious?
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There's a fair chance you are underestimating the number of things that can go wrong that you may not be prepared to handle, or you would not ask this question. If you can't even fathom why someone would be anxious to solo, I'd also question if you were ready.

It seems like you might be exhibiting at least 2, if not 4 of the faa's 5 hazardous attitudes.

Screen Shot 2018-07-09 at 9.22.47 AM.png
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/media/04_phak_ch2.pdf
 
Salty said:
There's a fair chance you are underestimating the number of things that can go wrong that you may not be prepared to handle, or you would not ask this question. If you can't even fathom why someone would be anxious to solo, I'd also question if you were ready.

It seems like you might be exhibiting at least 2, if not 4 of the faa's 5 hazardous attitudes.

View attachment 64789
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/media/04_phak_ch2.pdf
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Since I last posted:
I have stayed with same CFI so far. I created the IACRA account and had him sign it, so now I have a temp paper SL. I have had one additional lesson, (because he cancelled one, something came up on his part). During this lesson I did 9 Touch and goes, all the while he was playing on his phone. If he feels comfortable enough to play with his phone and never touch any of the controls, while I am landing the plane is that good enough? All landings and take offs were on numbers and centerline, with no floating bouncing etc. I took the knowledge test and scored 98. After this last lesson he handed me the ASEL to go through, and said next lesson, we would stay in the pattern and repeat and that should be it. No mention of the Hood as before. In any event I expect to solo within the next couple lessons around the 17 to 18 hr mark.

To those who say that the student should not be anxious or want to be cut loose to solo, I ask are you serious? Why would a student be apprehensive and timid about soloing, the whole point is to learn how to pilot the plane. I would think the opposite that if a student resisted or did not want to solo when they were ready that is a red flag and that they may lack the confidence (not arrogance) they should have to fly.

Oh ADM really, how the heck did you even deduce that from this post? Why is everybody Dr. Phil these day? No I have none of those issues? Lets see maybe people should never want to solo? Does that fit in the ADM?

Did you read the post he feels I am ready, and said so, and who are you or me to question his years of wisdom and 5 months experience as a CFI.
 
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You have a tiny bit of a controlling personality, eh?

You found a CFI that can work with you, probably should keep him.
 
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Cptwing said:
Since I last posted:
I have stayed with same CFI so far. I created the IACRA account and had him sign it, so now I have a temp paper SL. I have had one additional lesson, (because he cancelled one, something came up on his part). During this lesson I did 9 Touch and goes, all the while he was playing on his phone. If he feels comfortable enough to play with his phone and never touch any of the controls, while I am landing the plane is that good enough? All landings and take offs were on numbers and centerline, with no floating bouncing etc. I took the knowledge test and scored 98. After this last lesson he handed me the ASEL to go through, and said next lesson, we would stay in the pattern and repeat and that should be it. No mention of the Hood as before. In any event I expect to solo within the next couple lessons around the 17 to 18 hr mark.

To those who say that the student should not be anxious or want to be cut loose to solo, I ask are you serious? Why would a student be apprehensive and timid about soloing, the whole point is to learn how to pilot the plane. I would think the opposite that if a student resisted or did not want to solo when they were ready that is a red flag and that they may lack the confidence (not arrogance) they should have to fly.

Oh ADM really, how the heck did you even deduce that from this post? Why is everybody Dr. Phil these day? No I have none of those issues? Lets see maybe people should never want to solo? Does that fit in the ADM?

Did you read the post he feels I am ready, and said so, and who are you or me to question his years of wisdom and 5 months experience as a CFI.
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Cptwing said:
Oh ADM really, how the heck did you even deduce that from this post? Why is everybody Dr. Phil these day? No I have none of those issues? Lets see maybe people should never want to solo? Does that fit in the ADM?
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Look, Cptwing, the folks on this board do not know you. We don't know your CFI either. All we have to go on are the things that you write.

Someone suggests that you "seem a little high-strung" and may not be ready, and you call him a crap instructor and rant that his certificate should be revoked. ("Cheerios") You have jumped down the throats of anyone who suggested that there might be another side to your story, or have pointed out the risks of what you want to do, or that you might not be ready. Your writing style is hostile and accusatory.

Anticipation and nervousness (like most soloing students have) is a sign that someone understands that what they're about to do carries risk, including a risk of death. That you exhibit none (and malign those that do, as not being confident enough) is worrisome. It's a hazardous attitude. Again, remember, this is based on what you have written here, which is all we know about you.

I have learned a great deal from those on this board; I would heed their warnings. Read. Listen. Stay safe.
 
I
kath said:
Look, Cptwing, the folks on this board do not know you. We don't know your CFI either. All we have to go on are the things that you write.

Someone suggests that you "seem a little high-strung" and may not be ready, and you call him a crap instructor and rant that his certificate should be revoked. ("Cheerios") You have jumped down the throats of anyone who suggested that there might be another side to your story, or have pointed out the risks of what you want to do, or that you might not be ready. Your writing style is hostile and accusatory.

Anticipation and nervousness (like most soloing students have) is a sign that someone understands that what they're about to do carries risk, including a risk of death. That you exhibit none (and malign those that do, as not being confident enough) is worrisome. It's a hazardous attitude. Again, remember, this is based on what you have written here, which is all we know about you.

I have learned a great deal from those on this board; I would heed their warnings. Read. Listen. Stay safe.
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I am sure that you have learned a great deal, and I hope to as well. If you read back to the original post you might realize that the comments I made were in response to some fairly derogatory judgmental remarks that were made by that individual. Said comments were made based on no actual knowledge of my skills good or bad. Is this a sign of a good educator? I would say no and that it demonstrates poor judgment by making assumptions or decisions without any data. That may even be loosely defined in ADM as poor decision making.

I do not take flying lightly, but I am also not afraid of it, nor do I feel I should be. I am not some young kid fresh off the turnip truck, throughout my life I have worked in and participated in activities that are statistically far more dangerous than General Aviation (and carry a much higher risk of death). I have never been involved any incidents where mine or anyone else's safety was compromised unnecessarily.

I am curious about something how do you know that wanting to progress (solo) in you flight training is a hazardous attitude? Have you experienced this first hand? When you were learning were you afraid to solo, did the instructor have to force you to do it?
 
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Cptwing said:
I


I am sure that you have learned a great deal, and I hope to as well. If you read back to the original post you might realize that the comments I made were in response to some fairly derogatory judgmental remarks that were made by that individual. Said comments were made based on no actual knowledge of my skills good or bad. Is this a sign of a good educator? I would say no and that it demonstrates poor judgment by making assumptions or decisions without any data. That may even be loosely defined in ADM as poor decision making.

I do not take flying lightly, but I am also not afraid of it, nor do I feel I should be. I am not some young kid fresh off the turnip truck, throughout my life I have worked in and participated in activities that are statistically far more dangerous than General Aviation (and carry a much higher risk of death). I have never been involved any incidents where mine or anyone else's safety was compromised unnecessarily.

I am curious about something how do you know that wanting to progress (solo) in you flight training is a hazardous attitude? Have you experienced this first hand? When you were learning were you afraid to solo, did the instructor have to force you to do it?
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Every one of your questions were answered when the points were originally brought up. That you jump past them in order to retain your original position is part of why we are making the judgement about you that we are.

PS> You hit the macho and invulnerability hazardous attitudes pretty strongly again in that post. Read the descriptions of them, they almost match your post word for word.
 
Salty said:
Every one of your questions were answered when the points were originally brought up. That you jump past them in order to retain your original position is part of why we are making the judgement about you that we are.

PS> You hit the macho and invulnerability hazardous attitudes pretty strongly again in that post. Read the descriptions of them, they almost match your post word for word.
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Ok enough, thanks for the diagnosis Doctor. Are you a real Psychiatric Doctor or just play one on TV and forums? Is thinking you are more educated, informed and intelligent than you actually are a negative trait the ADM? Maybe you and Lucy Vanpelt can open a joint practice together? I hear there are a lot of nickels to be made.

This is getting absurd study your ADM really hard and live your life by it if you wish, there are certainly valid theories and points in them. Insult me if you wish, I did gain some knowledge from some folks (not you) on this post and greatly appreciate it. I will be soloing next week and beginning XC immediately after that so all is good.
 
kath said:
Look, Cptwing, the folks on this board do not know you. We don't know your CFI either. All we have to go on are the things that you write.

Someone suggests that you "seem a little high-strung" and may not be ready, and you call him a crap instructor and rant that his certificate should be revoked. ("Cheerios") You have jumped down the throats of anyone who suggested that there might be another side to your story, or have pointed out the risks of what you want to do, or that you might not be ready. Your writing style is hostile and accusatory.

Anticipation and nervousness (like most soloing students have) is a sign that someone understands that what they're about to do carries risk, including a risk of death. That you exhibit none (and malign those that do, as not being confident enough) is worrisome. It's a hazardous attitude. Again, remember, this is based on what you have written here, which is all we know about you.

I have learned a great deal from those on this board; I would heed their warnings. Read. Listen. Stay safe.
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Damn, that was incredibly well written and spot on :)

@Cptwing - it never actually mattered which specific post crossed some sort of line with you, eventually someone would have said something that did not agree with you. But its how you take their criticism that tells so much.

There's the humble, I'm gonna learn something and respect advice crowd. And probably every one of them was a bit nervous on their solo day and probably a bit surprised when the CFI hopped out. People are trying to tell you this is a typical, normal experience. And if you think about the actual number of initial solo accidents (quite low) then this training approach, the way the CFI decides and the respect and humility of the student must be working.

But your case is different. You are expecting to solo. As if you've earned it and can't have it. Its as if the CFI is the problem and you aren't. Blame comes to mind right away. I know whenever someone starts blaming someone else for something I always want to know the other's persons side of the story. But we're not getting that here. And you can't blame us for having doubts and recognizing your attitude towards the responses. Unfortunately you will never be able to see it the way we do - and that's what freaks people out in aviation.

I think its good you are trying to continue flying with the same CFI. I had to switch much later than where you are and it does set you back. You sound ready. Now be humble and let it happen. That doesn't sound easy for you. Trying to rush aviation is literally like trying to move a mountain. Every CFI, FBO, Mechanic and FAA are out there working to a timing that is not easily changed or rushed. Nothing will frustrate you more than trying to rush it or change it.
 
Rushing into anything in aviation, is a fools errand. Take your time, educate yourself as much as possible, and surround yourself with experienced aviators who are not afraid to call you out on your BS, at least that's what I do. There is no substitute for direct experience, but the next best thing is learning from others experience. I fully understand your feelings of wanting to move faster, but one of the most important things in aviation is not to rush, we die alot quicker when we rush!

Side note: I wouldn't spend $1 on a CFI that was fiddling with his phone on a lesson!!! YHGTBSM


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I do wonder if the OP has looked over at the CFI and said “put that damn phone down and watch what I’m doing. If you don’t want to watch, them get your ass out and I’ll just fly by myself. I pretty much am anyway, you worthless fudge cycle”.
 
Jeppesen, King, ASA, and Gleim all have hood time in their syllabi before solo. The "WTF, fire the CFI now" reaction is totally out of line.

Funny how the tide turned from everyone crapping on the CFI to everyone crapping on the student. No doubt the first page of responses where everyone is criticizing the CFI with only hearing a half a side of the story were mostly made by non-CFIs.
 
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dmspilot said:
Jeppesen, King, ASA, and Gleim all have hood time in their syllabi before solo. The "WTF, fire the CFI now" reaction is totally out of line.

Funny how the tide turned from everyone crapping on the CFI to everyone crapping on the student. No doubt the first page of responses where everyone is criticizing the CFI with only hearing a half a side of the story were mostly made by non-CFIs.
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I think I had a little over 1hr of hood time before i soloed. That was probably 3 x 20 minute sessions.
 
jallen0 said:
Not sure I trust anything the OP has written here after reading three pages. Just seems a bit too off to me.
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I am so sorry Jallen, I totally missed the point and reason I started this post. I mistakenly thought it was to seek advice about progressing through flight lessons. I should have realized that the important thing was to impress you, guess I failed.
Salty said:
It’s walking and quacking like a troll.
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Does this post actually serve a purpose? Seems this may fit you?
2. Impulsivity:
"Do it quickly."
This is the attitude of people who frequently feel the need to do something, anything, immediately. They do not stop to think about what they are about to do; they do not select the best alternative, and they do the first thing that comes to mind.

No ill feelings Salty its all good. So feel free to psycho analyze someone else now, try James, I read his post about trespassers, he may have some serious anger management issues.

As for the time under the hood, I never objected to it, I just pointed out that the FAA does not feel its required. I told the CFI at the time bring on lets do it, and he has never mentioned it since? But I finished the ASEL, reviewed it with CFI and have solo endorsement in my logbook. Next lesson its three times around.


 
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Cptwing said:
I am so sorry Jallen, I totally missed the point and reason I started this post. I mistakenly thought it was to seek advice about progressing through flight lessons. I should have realized that the important thing was to impress you, guess I failed.

Does this post actually serve a purpose? Seems this may fit you?
2. Impulsivity:
"Do it quickly."
This is the attitude of people who frequently feel the need to do something, anything, immediately. They do not stop to think about what they are about to do; they do not select the best alternative, and they do the first thing that comes to mind.
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Cptwing said:
I
As for the time under the hood, I never objected to it, I just pointed out that the FAA does not feel its required
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Wrong, FAA requires 3 hours instrument training. It's in Part 61, along with the other required hours.
 
mscard88 said:
Wrong, FAA requires 3 hours instrument training. It's in Part 61, along with the other required hours.
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I believe he is referring to pre-solo requirements, not PP requirements.
 
Actually not wrong, while part 61 does require 3hrs under the hood. Pre-solo requirements for student pilots as listed in 61.87 do not. Its mute anyway, for some reason my CFI has reversed himself. Either way I know I have three hours of simulated instruments under the hood and look forward to it.
 
Cptwing said:
Actually not wrong, while part 61 does require 3hrs under the hood. Pre-solo requirements for student pilots as listed in 61.87 do not. Its mute anyway, for some reason my CFI has reversed himself. Either way I know I have three hours of simulated instruments under the hood and look forward to it.
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Cptwing said:
Actually not wrong, while part 61 does require 3hrs under the hood. Pre-solo requirements for student pilots as listed in 61.87 do not. Its mute anyway, for some reason my CFI has reversed himself. Either way I know I have three hours of simulated instruments under the hood and look forward to it.
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You didn't specify pre solo though, did you. You do seem like you like to argue and think you're right. My students receive instrument time before they solo for what it's worth, but I guess I'm wrong there too huh.
 
If you're at a Part 141 school it would most likely be required since most syllabi require it.

The fact it's not required by Part 61 during presolo training doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. ATC communication is not required during presolo training either but it would be kinda silly not to learn it if you're at a controlled airport anyway right? But why think about things rationally when we can just whine and say "wtf do I have to do that for, it's not required (yet)."

Doing hood work before solo is a good way of 1) teaching the student how the instruments work and how to use them, and 2) reinforcing basic aircraft control during climbs, turns, descents, etc. That said I usually do it pretty early in the process. It usually goes something like -- intro flight, four fundamentals, slow flight and stalls, hood work, emergencies and stalls to proficiency, ground reference maneuvers, takeoffs and landings. (Granted getting someone almost ready to solo and then going backward and making them do hood work first does seem kinda silly which is probably why OP's CFI changed his mind.)

I for one am in the business of making safe, proficient pilots, rather than making pilots who just barely know what they're doing. And I can also tell you 15 hours to solo, especially at a controlled airport, really isn't that much. Some of my students solo with less than that, but many of them, maybe even a slight majority, take longer.

Lots of people think that many hours to solo or many hours to checkride is a case of the CFI/flight school milking the student, but I think this is much rarer than people believe. Screwing over customers is not good for business or the CFI's reputation. A CFI and a flight school will do much better business by getting people in and out quickly and moving on to the next. See ATP Flight School which makes plenty of money I'm sure...probably does things a little too quick.
 
mscard88 said:
You didn't specify pre solo though, did you. You do seem like you like to argue and think you're right. My students receive instrument time before they solo for what it's worth, but I guess I'm wrong there too huh.
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I did specify that in my very first post. Not like to argue just clarifying.
 
Did I miss something, I was all set to do the hood. The instructor is the one that said we can do it after. And yes I train out of a controlled airport and talk to ATC when I train.

Not whining at all, it’s all good. Next lesson is tomorrow and if all goes well it three laps around the track.
 
A 17-year old kid joined our EAA chapter. I set him in the front of a champ for about 5 or 6 hours. We worked on coordination, slow flight, and a bunch of take-offs and landings. He flew with another guy in the same airplane several times. Then he started taking lessons officially in a Cessna 150. He soloed last night after 7 hours of official dual. Keep in mind he had about 10 hours total at the controls of a champ (an excellent trainer) and even some time in my Waco (now there is a trainer). Congrats to a new pilot. He could easily get a tail wheel endorsement right now because he learned to fly in a conventional gear plane and didn't have flaps to worry about.
 
This guy has to be a troll. No way this is real. Stop feeding the troll
 
Cptwing said:
Ok enough, thanks for the diagnosis Doctor. Are you a real Psychiatric Doctor or just play one on TV and forums?
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The insolence of this guy is quite entertaining. And you know, many master pilots had similar personalities. He may yet grow up into a Chuck Yeager. 17 hours to solo, that's very good, if it works -- way ahead of the national average. I say we give him the benefit of doubt.
 
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