Thinking About (ok bought) F-350 with PowerStroke 6.0L - Questions

I don't think it would need a cam. Also this particular shop does exchange engines rather than rebuilding yours, so it would have a good cam in it regardless. However one of the stated improvements of the cam is reducing turbo lag, which is important to me, plus a general efficiency/power improvement. Who knows how much it reduces it by, though, and what else comes into play. The engine package I was looking at also overbores it a hair, and of course more displacement gives you less turbo lag, even though the extra displacement is minimal on a 0.020-0.030" overbore. Some of the numbers at the website of this one shop seem a bit optimistic, but they're trying to sell their engines.



That's not encouraging. Has that been because of the quality of the engine rebuilds themselves, installation issues, or just got the thing turned up too high?



The thought has crossed my mind, too. But I really was pretty unimpressed by the test drive. Maybe it's in part because I drove such a base model truck, the higher end ones might be better. I'm also realizing that if I order new, I'm going to want to get some more of the fancy features, mainly leather seats. The other luxury features I don't care about any, but I like the nice seats. Also that engine in the new one was too quiet and too smooth, and there are some parts about the aesthetics that I don't like on the Dodge, especially as a SRW, but I think the Fords look nicer. I've also decided I don't particularly want a dually at this point, since I don't need it and it'll make parking that much harder for normal driving (which I'm doing regularly).

At that point, the price tag gets pushed up quite a bit... probably closer in the $50-60k range out the door depending on specific options. Then I also have a new truck which, while nice in many ways has its negatives. I'm reminded of some of the positives of my old truck every time my kids come out with hammers and "I fix this diesel truck!" If I had really loved the Dodge when I test drove it it would be different and I would probably want to go that way, but I didn't. I got in my F-350 (which at the time ran like crap), drove it home, and said "I like the way this drives better." Plus the emissions junk on there, which this truck already has deleted.

I did look briefly at the Cummins conversion option. That one is a no go. The conversion kits practically cost as much as a rebuilt 6.0L, and that doesn't even include the Cummins engine or any of the labor that goes with it. That just isn't worth doing at all, especially given all the money I put into 6.0L parts that would still be usable with a new engine if I decided to go that route.

For now I'll probably keep on driving it as-is and dumping more oil in while I finish up some of the other items I'm working on with it, then decide what to do with it. I still need to get the front door panels from the King Ranch interior put in.

I think you have an itch that can only be scratched by taking these derilect franken-projects under your wing and nursing them along. Shall we mention the semi?

Maybe you're just the male mechanical equivalent of the hoarding crazy cat lady...
 
I think you have an itch that can only be scratched by taking these derilect franken-projects under your wing and nursing them along. Shall we mention the semi?

You're just now noticing this? ;)

I've had project vehicles for about 17 years.

Maybe you're just the male mechanical equivalent of the hoarding crazy cat lady...

Except I tend to get rid of my projects at some point. You want to see people who hoard projects, I know some of them. One friend of mine is now getting around to some that he's had for a few decades in his retirement. However, they're interesting vehicles.

I was not looking for a project with this truck.
 
Believe me, I recognize that itch... It hits close to home.

(excuse me while I hit Craigslist up to search for some more obscure part donors)

I typed "Cummins" into CraigsList and found some interesting options...
 
One warrantee repair was blown head gasket. The rebuilder was supposed to have used ARP's. Not.
The second was piston FOD from a blown turbo. If I see him I'll ask who the rebuilder was. Fortunately the local shop went to bat for him and took good care.

He's an older guy in his 70's and uses it to pull his 5th wheel camper. It's bone stock. He had some egr related overheat problems too. Now that it's all sorted, he's a happy camper, but it was an expensive struggle.

Honest to God, if someone put a gun to my head and said "buy a truck", I dunno what I'd choose. One of my customers had an older Ram Cummins that was bulletproof, but it got rear-ended and totalled. Bought a newer, couple years old model, been nothing but trouble. Does this weird thing where he'll get a bunch of white smoke, it'll go into limp home. He'll shut it off, restart and it's fine. Still 5k miles on warrantee and dealer is of no help, because it's not throwing codes.

The only guys I know who have had no problems of any kind are my farriers. They drive Duramax Chevy's, but they turn them in for new ones every couple years. IMHO, modern diesels suck.
 
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One warrantee repair was blown head gasket. The rebuilder was supposed to have used ARP's. Not.
The second was piston FOD from a blown turbo. If I see him I'll ask who the rebuilder was. Fortunately the local shop went to bat for him and took good care.

He's an older guy in his 70's and uses it to pull his 5th wheel camper. It's bone stock. He had some egr related overheat problems too. Now that it's all sorted, he's a happy camper, but it was an expensive struggle.

Honest to God, if someone put a gun to my head and said "buy a truck", I dunno what I'd choose. One of my customers had an older Ram Cummins that was bulletproof, but it got rear-ended and totalled. Bought a newer, couple years old model, been nothing but trouble. Does this weird thing where he'll get a bunch of white smoke, it'll go into limp home. He'll shut it off, restart and it's fine. Still 5k miles on warrantee and dealer is of no help, because it's not throwing codes.

The only guys I know who have had no problems of any kind are my farriers. They drive Duramax Chevy's, but they turn them in for new ones every couple years. IMHO, modern diesels suck.
White smoke means only one thing...
 
White smoke means only one thing...

I assume you're referring to head gaskets. In the case of the 6.0L, a blown head gasket tends to not result in white smoke. It normally will result in puking coolant out. The cylinder pressures are so high that it ends up forcing combustion gasses into the coolant. I don't know about Cummins or Duramax engines, but I'd imagine similar.

On some of these newer diesels, the white smoke can also mean unburned fuel. When I bought my Dodge new in 2004, that was a known item with it for cold starts. It'd puff some white smoke for a bit and then it'd be fine. Never consumed coolant. Oddly, the Ford gasser V10s will do that as well under certain conditions. Most notably if you start it, only let it run for a short period of time (like to move it around in the driveway), and then shut it off. My 2000 Excursion did that to me several times. Go figure.

My F-350 will give a little blue smoke on startup... oil. If the one weak cylinder doesn't start firing immediately (seems to be worse on the hotter days) then it'll puff blue smoke until I rev it up to 1,000 RPMs for a few seconds. It'll fire there and then get enough heat in it to run fine at idle.
 
I assume you're referring to head gaskets. In the case of the 6.0L, a blown head gasket tends to not result in white smoke. It normally will result in puking coolant out. The cylinder pressures are so high that it ends up forcing combustion gasses into the coolant. I don't know about Cummins or Duramax engines, but I'd imagine similar.

I can report that there was no white smoke on my head gasket failure on the Cummins 5.9. It blew coolant all over the right front (passenger) side of the engine and the fan blew that all over the hot turbo external casing. Total mess. LOL.

Sad part was it was almost the right color to match the turbo so it wasn't really obvious the turbo was a new color until I got it home. Closer inspection showed the spray pattern. And baked on coolant.

A lot of that area was hidden by the original turbo location and air box which got moved with a different intake manifold to mount the turbo high center rear and removal of the airbox for a giant tractor air filter and dust sock, during the rebuild.

Probably doesn't really give it any more air in reality, but it does all fit in there better now. Much cleaner.

It pulled the trailer like that for lots and lots of miles. Amazing really. Throttle seemed a little laggy is all. LOL.

With the larger injectors I get a puff of black smoke at every start until the computer figures out what's going on and reduces the fuel request. :)
 
I assume you're referring to head gaskets. In the case of the 6.0L, a blown head gasket tends to not result in white smoke. It normally will result in puking coolant out. The cylinder pressures are so high that it ends up forcing combustion gasses into the coolant. I don't know about Cummins or Duramax engines, but I'd imagine similar.

On some of these newer diesels, the white smoke can also mean unburned fuel. When I bought my Dodge new in 2004, that was a known item with it for cold starts. It'd puff some white smoke for a bit and then it'd be fine. Never consumed coolant. Oddly, the Ford gasser V10s will do that as well under certain conditions. Most notably if you start it, only let it run for a short period of time (like to move it around in the driveway), and then shut it off. My 2000 Excursion did that to me several times. Go figure.

My F-350 will give a little blue smoke on startup... oil. If the one weak cylinder doesn't start firing immediately (seems to be worse on the hotter days) then it'll puff blue smoke until I rev it up to 1,000 RPMs for a few seconds. It'll fire there and then get enough heat in it to run fine at idle.
What? You assume I mean something and what you assume I mean is wrong? Dude that is twisted.
 
The fuel system seems a logical place to start, maybe an intermittent massively leaky injector or something along those lines, might happen without resulting in a code. Dunno, but not my circus, not my monkey. Only my observation that modern diesels don't seem as nearly mx free as the older models, and dealers less helpful and skilled at solving issues.
I like my 86 f-150 with a bored out and stroked 300 six. Don't get more old school than that. But then, I don't have to make a living with it.
 
What? You assume I mean something and what you assume I mean is wrong? Dude that is twisted.

You're right, I apologize.

It can only mean some of your Colorado special stuff is being burned. I agree.
 
You're right, I apologize.

It can only mean some of your Colorado special stuff is being burned. I agree.
I was thinking about the time we got a load of water along with the fuel we expected. Typical workboat tricks. Anyway, we had white smoke for many days after that.
 
If it makes you feel better, Ted ... this guy really needs a new crank.


I don't usually troll around looking for Ford videos but that one happened to come up, and I was thinking... OUCH... just over 60,000 on a 6.7...

Also seems interesting that airplane crank makers have had such bad runs with metallurgy in the last decade or so... I know the trucks typically don't when it comes to the cranks, but it has to hurt when one does.
 
I seem to remember reading a few not so glowing things about Asheville engine place, but I don't have any first hand experience.

I wonder what it would cost to get a long block from the parts desk at your local Ford stealership?

I still think you should see if you can get it in the hands of a knowledgeable, independent Ford diesel guy. Motor might just whisper a simple solution to him that doesn't require a full rebuild?
 
Fast forward a month or so. I've driven the truck most days (with the exception of the past week when I was on vacation). The weak cylinder is getting weaker. Every specialist I've talked to agrees that the cylinder is bad and the engine needs to get torn into and replaced.

I chatted some with Asheville engines and did some research. I've not found any significant bad reports. I also talked with a local place that said they've had very good luck with Asheville engines in trucks they've installed. $5500 (including round trip shipping for the engine and core) will get me a rebuilt stock engine, and $6500 will get me one with a 0.030" overbore and "Stage 2 cam", which is supposed to be easier on the lifters and improve throttle response/turbo spool-up. I think their performance claims for the cam and overbore are overstated, but even cutting their numbers in half it'd bring the 6.0 up to the same power as a new Cummins with the 6-speed. If their numbers are accurate, it brings it more or less up to a Cummins with the automatic.

I'm getting some quotes on what it'd cost to put the engine in. The Ford dealer gave me a book time estimate of $3,375 not including fluids or any parts that got changed. I figure they'd likely be around $4k out the door, which would bring the total to roughly $10,500 if I go with the performance engine (which I think I would if I'm going to go that far). They said about a week turnaround once they got the engine in.

Another shop I called (the one who's dealt with Asheville a good bit) said they would have to order the engine themselves, and so they'll give me an "out the door" quote include fluids and things that they'd replace as part of the job. So we'll see what that comes out to, but it seems like $10-12k is what I need to expect to spend on it if I go that route.

I really hate to put that kind of money into this truck. On the other hand, even if I get a $10k trade-in value on this (which seems unlikely), that would put ~$20k of "value" towards a new truck. Doing some looking, it seems like $50k would be a really good price on the truck I really want, so therefore it'd be spending an additional ~$30k to have new.

There's really not an option I see as being particularly good here.
 
Yikes. That's pretty low miles for a motor and an unenviable position you're in. My wife's Jetta TDI lost compression on one cylinder early in our ownership, and at low miles, due to a leaky injector repeatedly (and unbeknownst to us) semi-hydrolocking the cylinder. It actually bent the rod, which meant that piston never came to actual TDC, therefore not making full compression (plus it sorta egged out the cylinder wall, but only a little).

We just put a piston/rings in that hole after cleaning it up and she's steady smoking her away around town today. Point of my anecdote: is it maybe worth tearing into yours possibly just sorting out the one bad cylinder vs. whole new mill?

Bent (expensive) rod still hangs on my garage wall...6 digits of miles later.
 
Got to love a diesel. the advantage of new is you will have a warranty which is priceless when it comes to unreliable diesel engines. The down side is a big time payment and a truck that you likely will not be able to work on your self when the warranty ends. Keeping your truck and "bullet proofing" the 6.0 will give you many more years of service for a lot less money. Remove all the emissions garbage, upgrade the head studs and gaskets, rebuild the turbo while you have it off, and you may even consider the transmission too while the engine is out. At least then you will have the piece of mind that all of the running gear is brand new.
 
Fast forward a month or so. I've driven the truck most days (with the exception of the past week when I was on vacation). The weak cylinder is getting weaker. Every specialist I've talked to agrees that the cylinder is bad and the engine needs to get torn into and replaced.

I chatted some with Asheville engines and did some research. I've not found any significant bad reports. I also talked with a local place that said they've had very good luck with Asheville engines in trucks they've installed. $5500 (including round trip shipping for the engine and core) will get me a rebuilt stock engine, and $6500 will get me one with a 0.030" overbore and "Stage 2 cam", which is supposed to be easier on the lifters and improve throttle response/turbo spool-up. I think their performance claims for the cam and overbore are overstated, but even cutting their numbers in half it'd bring the 6.0 up to the same power as a new Cummins with the 6-speed. If their numbers are accurate, it brings it more or less up to a Cummins with the automatic.

I'm getting some quotes on what it'd cost to put the engine in. The Ford dealer gave me a book time estimate of $3,375 not including fluids or any parts that got changed. I figure they'd likely be around $4k out the door, which would bring the total to roughly $10,500 if I go with the performance engine (which I think I would if I'm going to go that far). They said about a week turnaround once they got the engine in.

Another shop I called (the one who's dealt with Asheville a good bit) said they would have to order the engine themselves, and so they'll give me an "out the door" quote include fluids and things that they'd replace as part of the job. So we'll see what that comes out to, but it seems like $10-12k is what I need to expect to spend on it if I go that route.

I really hate to put that kind of money into this truck. On the other hand, even if I get a $10k trade-in value on this (which seems unlikely), that would put ~$20k of "value" towards a new truck. Doing some looking, it seems like $50k would be a really good price on the truck I really want, so therefore it'd be spending an additional ~$30k to have new.

There's really not an option I see as being particularly good here.


Well, on the bright side, the market demand for these trucks means your "investment" will bring a higher resale return than similar (and more costly) engine work on your plane. :confused:
 
Financially, it's smarter to fix it, if the truck does what you need it to do (when operating properly). So, the question is: do you like the truck enough to want to keep it? If so, replace the engine. $10K isn't a ton in the grand scheme of things, especially in the diesel world, but it's still a lot for a mid-2000's truck that you might be able to pick up a functioning substitute for the same money. However, then you're buying another truck with unknown issues.
 
Fix the bad cylinder. Move on.
 
I'd order the Dodge with a manual transmission, it's what you want. It'll have a warranty, and it'll be new. It doesn't seem like your truck was maintained very well before you got it, and that often leads to chasing one problem after another. You could easily wind up with way more money in that truck than it's worth, and still be having problems. I'm not saying that's what will happen, but it's happened many times before. The motor gets fixed, then it's the transmission, then the rear end, then the power steering, then the heater core, and on and on.
 
Yikes. That's pretty low miles for a motor and an unenviable position you're in. My wife's Jetta TDI lost compression on one cylinder early in our ownership, and at low miles, due to a leaky injector repeatedly (and unbeknownst to us) semi-hydrolocking the cylinder. It actually bent the rod, which meant that piston never came to actual TDC, therefore not making full compression (plus it sorta egged out the cylinder wall, but only a little).

We just put a piston/rings in that hole after cleaning it up and she's steady smoking her away around town today. Point of my anecdote: is it maybe worth tearing into yours possibly just sorting out the one bad cylinder vs. whole new mill?

Bent (expensive) rod still hangs on my garage wall...6 digits of miles later.

If I could just tear into mine myself then I think that would be an option I'd consider. Problem is, while I have the skill to do that, I don't have the time. Oh, and pulling that head gets difficult without pulling the cab, which I don't have a shop setup to do now. When I've talked to the shops, none of them want to do it, and the cost gets up high because it's pretty much the same work (actually more work) than just doing the engine, so then it makes little sense to do. So I think I'm at the point of new engine or new truck.

Got to love a diesel. the advantage of new is you will have a warranty which is priceless when it comes to unreliable diesel engines. The down side is a big time payment and a truck that you likely will not be able to work on your self when the warranty ends. Keeping your truck and "bullet proofing" the 6.0 will give you many more years of service for a lot less money. Remove all the emissions garbage, upgrade the head studs and gaskets, rebuild the turbo while you have it off, and you may even consider the transmission too while the engine is out. At least then you will have the piece of mind that all of the running gear is brand new.

Back in 2004 when I bought my Dodge, a lot of people said the same things. Time showed they were wrong. The GM 5.3s back then were having lifter issues left and right, the Hemis weren't great, and the Ford gas engines were blowing spark plugs. The "impossible to work on out of warranty" worry has been around for 25 years or more, basically ever since computers came into play, and that's continued to prove not true. I don't see that changing. Companies quickly figure out workarounds for deleting emissions equipment, etc.

I do agree that bulletproofing the 6.0 should keep the engine itself good for a long time to come, but there's still the rest of the truck.

Financially, it's smarter to fix it, if the truck does what you need it to do (when operating properly). So, the question is: do you like the truck enough to want to keep it? If so, replace the engine. $10K isn't a ton in the grand scheme of things, especially in the diesel world, but it's still a lot for a mid-2000's truck that you might be able to pick up a functioning substitute for the same money. However, then you're buying another truck with unknown issues.

I agree that financially it's smarter to fix the truck, although that intelligence decreases to some extent with time and also reliability. As the truck continues to age, more and more things will break on it, especially with the poor maintenance I think it received for some period of time (probably a lot of its life) before I bought it.

I like driving the F-350, and if I put an engine in it it'll probably have more power than the new Ram with a Cummins would after the bulletproofing and performance bits that get done. But even with the work I've done to it, the lack of manual transmission will always be a negative.

I'd order the Dodge with a manual transmission, it's what you want. It'll have a warranty, and it'll be new. It doesn't seem like your truck was maintained very well before you got it, and that often leads to chasing one problem after another. You could easily wind up with way more money in that truck than it's worth, and still be having problems. I'm not saying that's what will happen, but it's happened many times before. The motor gets fixed, then it's the transmission, then the rear end, then the power steering, then the heater core, and on and on.

I already have more money in the truck than its worth, and if I put a new engine in it I'll have a lot more in it than its worth, so instant depreciation. The new Rams hold their value quite well for a while.

You are correct that a Ram with the manual transmission is what I want. I actually found a dealership that had one locally and went to test drive it today. The truck itself was a Tradesman, so not what I would buy. However the engine/transmission combo is no different so it drives the same. Yep, completely transformed the truck for me and it's what I want. It actually drove noticeably better than my 2004.5 did with the G56 transmission instead of the NV5600 (@denverpilot knows all about the NV5600, too...)

But no matter how I slice it, it's another $30-35k to buy a new Ram than it is to fix the F-350 and payments for a long time, plus more expensive insurance, etc., which is a tough pill to swallow.

I know that if I get the Ram I want, long term I'll be happier with that. But that's a lot of money that could be put towards other things.
 
You are correct that a Ram with the manual transmission is what I want. I actually found a dealership that had one locally and went to test drive it today. The truck itself was a Tradesman, so not what I would buy. However the engine/transmission combo is no different so it drives the same. Yep, completely transformed the truck for me and it's what I want. It actually drove noticeably better than my 2004.5 did with the G56 transmission instead of the NV5600 (@denverpilot knows all about the NV5600, too...)

But no matter how I slice it, it's another $30-35k to buy a new Ram than it is to fix the F-350 and payments for a long time, plus more expensive insurance, etc., which is a tough pill to swallow.

I know that if I get the Ram I want, long term I'll be happier with that. But that's a lot of money that could be put towards other things.

I'm almost jealous you found one to test drive. Even if it was a Tradesman. :)
 
I'm almost jealous you found one to test drive. Even if it was a Tradesman. :)

It was an important step for me prior to thinking about whether or not we should buy one. The automatic variant was very underwhelming for me in terms of driving experience.
 
The best of both worlds ... http://www.destroked.com

I'm certainly all for throwing in a Cummins, but the finances of that make absolutely no sense. Spend a bunch of money on a used Cummins engine (or a used Cummins truck as a whole), then spend the money for the various adapters, etc. to do the swap.

Plus, most of the money that I've put into the F-350 is specifically into items for the 6.0L engine. So then that ends up being all money that goes down the drain.
 
Well I guess now I need to put up a Classified Ad for my F-350... ;)

Giving up. Time for a Ram.
 

You win some, you lose some. I lost this one and I don't mind admitting it.

The funny thing is how similar of a situation this was to 2004.

In 2003, I bought a 1997 GMC C2500 diesel (6.5TD). It was a former work truck. Price was right and it had "only" 142k miles on it. Honestly, I liked that truck a good bit. It wasn't exactly what I wanted, but it had most of the boxes.

In 2004 at 172k miles (just over 30k miles from what it had when I bought it) it threw a rod through the oil pan. Lot of energy there. Actually took out the starter when it did it. In the course of the year I'd done a good bit to it. So then I had to make the decision of whether I put a new engine in or buy a new truck. I ended up deciding to buy a new truck. Was exactly what I wanted and was a great truck. In fact, I considered buying it back from my friend who I sold it to. Also humorously, at the time I had a friend who was a retired Ford exec and offered to get me his price on a new F-250/350. I opted not to because of the issues the 6.0s were having.

Fast forward to 2017 and I have my 2003 F-350 (basically the truck I opted not to buy in 2004) and it ends up having a bottom end problem, so rather than put a new engine in it I'm opting to buy a new truck. History repeating itself, especially since the new truck is basically the same truck as the old truck.

Now, the difference - I sold my 2004 Ram 2 years to the day and 108,000 miles after purchase. This time I'm buying 4x4 instead of 4x2, and we're planning on this being a forever truck. We'll see how that works out, but this should maintain a fixture in our lives for some time.

I still maintain that the 6.0 itself wasn't necessarily the issue, it's more that this truck just wasn't taken good care of by its previous owners. The bottom ends on the 6.0s generally weren't the issues, it was everything attached to them. I'm just not interested in putting a new engine in this thing.
 
I figured it was worth posting an official closure to this thread, since buying the new Ram was only part of it - the other part of it was, of course, disposing of the F-350, which I did about a week ago.

I'd had the truck on CriagsList for a while, with the price continuing to go down. I put up a very honest ad and while I got several people who came by to look at it, they were all looking to get the truck for basically free, which I wasn't willing to do. I'd part it out first if that was the case, since there were a whole lot of parts in there that could be worth quite a bit. Plus as a rust-free driving truck, I didn't want to part it out.

Adding to the vehicle confusion, my wife's Excursion was going to need some work that I didn't feel like doing in the not-too-distant future, and reality is she never liked it much. Didn't like the color combination or the number of issues it was having, being 15 years old with 207,000 miles it was fairly beat up outside and inside. Excursions also aren't the best choice for the tight parking lots that my wife tends to find herself in when shopping, the behemoth that it is. She loves our Mercedes E55, and a friend had recently bought a Mercedes GL450 which I liked and thought Laurie would like, too. She liked the idea, so first we looked at a silver GL450. She liked the car itself and the way it drove, but the color combination (silver exterior/light grey interior) screamed "Boring old lady".

After some more looking around, we found a GL550 for sale. Lower miles (<100k), bigger engine (382 HP, 391 lb-ft torque from a 5.5L V8 connected to a 7-speed transmission), AMG Sport package (which is mostly styling cues and different rims), black paint with black interior. Laurie looked at it but then had to go out of town for work for a few days. I figured this thing would sell quickly and didn't want it to get away. So I called the dealer and asked if they'd consider trading in two vehicles (the Excursion and F-350) towards it, to which they said yes.

I towed the F-350 with the Excursion to the dealer, checked out the GL550, they checked out my potential trade-ins, we talked numbers, and I ended up towing home an empty trailer with the new-to-us GL550.

I've never traded in a vehicle before (much less two), but in this case it made a lot of sense. They actually gave me better trade-in values than I expected, and I ended up paying what I was willing to pay out the door. The trade-in values end up being worth an extra 10% because of how the taxes work here (you pay tax on the difference between the trade-in vehicles and the newly purchased vehicle).

So in the end we owned the F-350 almost exactly 6 months. I took a very significant loss on it when you consider all the parts I put into the thing. There's no doubt in my mind that the seller knew exactly what he was selling when he sold it, but I just wasn't smart enough to catch it, and didn't cut bait and run early enough in the process to save myself some frustration. But that said, I learned a good bit about PowerStroke 6.0s and so I don't consider it a total loss - education is expensive. I ended up with the Ram I really had wanted from the start, and we used the F-350 towards the purchase of a vehicle my wife wanted. In the end, it all worked out pretty well.
 
The fire department I am in is going to sell a 1999 F350 brush truck. It has the 7.3 engine and stick shift. Has to be replaced because nobody under 50 knows how to drive it ;-) so, I am 'thinking' about an F350 at this time. Bodywork is beaten to hell from the trees and the hardware, but you don't find many 7.3 manuals with 30k miles on the power train.
 
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