Flying west in an NA single

cowman

cowman

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Cowman
So for reference I'm based at KUIN near St Louis and I'm flying a PA-28-181 Archer II with a service ceiling of a little over 13,000. At this time I'm only rated for VFR.

My wife and I are discussing possible destinations for later this year, possibly around Nov. I've now been down to FL and TX and most likely will be back again. Also thinking about the East coast...

But we've not tried to go West yet. We've greatly enjoyed hitting places in the off-season months while they're still warm and enjoying destination towns while there are no crowds. I'm thinking maybe somewhere in California... maybe several places in California.

Thing is there are all these tall mountains between here and there. I've never flown in anything but flatlands and wouldn't know what I was doing in that sort of terrain. What's the best way over- to go down south through TX, NM, AZ and up or to try to find a pass somewhere? I don't mind a long trip with a few overnights, especially if we can plan it around fun stuff to see/do along the way. I'm a little intimidated by mountain flying just because I would have no idea what I'm getting into so wondering if they're an "easy" route across. Easy by definition of a flatlander not an experienced mountain pilot ;)
 
I flew from BJC (Denver area) to the Portland area in an Archer. Granted, it was just me and minimal baggage so the plane was light but I didn't have any issues. I just took a few passes until the terrain descended. I flew over thanksgiving a few years ago.

Disclaimer- GET MOUNTAIN TRAINING. Mountain flying is not something that should be approached without training.
 
Best (and most reliable 90% of the time) way is to fly straight to Las Vegas, NM and then loosely follow I-25 toward ABQ (pass south of or stop at Santa Fe for fuel). DA will be a consideration for takeoff if you stop in that area for fuel, but weather and terrain are generally the most favorable along that route. I just flew that way a few months ago ferrying a VFR only Cherokee out to California.

You should be fine and sufficiently below your service ceiling. Just keep in mind the usual disclaimers: it will be bumpier and performance will degrade in the afternoon.
 
Cowman,

Getting mountain training will be beneficial for you and let you know how your plane will handle the altitude. Depending on your starting point, if you time it right, you could fly up towards Denver from about anywhere south and east without having to deal with terrain. You could catch the weekend mountain course, then head west with new knowledge and skills.

Last year, I flew into West Yellowstone airport from Denver. With proper planning, it's an easy flight and your plane will be fine.

Dean
 
I know people like to push it, but you really do not need 'mountain training' to safely do the SAF/ABQ route. There is no mountain pass flying along there. Your primary concern is going to be takeoff performance (and turbulence) if you are flying in the afternoon. If the timing of your trip has you passing the area in the afternoon, I'd recommend landing at SAF and staying overnight and then departing the next morning before it gets warm.
 
Lol, you'll be fine if you have some common sense.

IFR isn't needed as you'll probably catch ice anyway, nor is a turbo or "mountian training". Just be wind aware.


Flew a S108 across the country VFR (cascades etc) and it was more than fine. Low and slow, good times, like riding a Harley cross the country n
 
Fearless Tower said:
I know people like to push it, but you really do not need 'mountain training' to safely do the SAF/ABQ route. There is no mountain pass flying along there. Your primary concern is going to be takeoff performance if you are flying in the afternoon. If the timing of your trip has you passing the area in the afternoon, I'd recommend landing at SAF and staying overnight and then departing the next morning before it gets warm.
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I agree if you go south. Though it is a must if you'll be in the CO Rockies.

Mountain training doesn't hurt to have though.
 
Mountain training might be fun.... it would likely need to be along the way though since I don't have any mountains to train in anywhere near home.

Guess it shouldn't be a big deal but looking at the sectionals and seeing terrain elevations higher than my usual cruising altitudes is somewhat intimidating.
 
You can fly West through Utah (over the top of SLC) and do it safely at 12,500. And be at 12,500 over the Sierras and clear them safely. But the winds will matter so when you try to go over the mountains make sure to check for turbulence Airmets. You need at least 2,000 feet above any peak you fly over to deal with a little less rotor effect. Especially if there is much westerly wind.
 
I'll second the early departure if you're in the SW United States. When I was flying in ABQ last summer, the DA was already over 7,000ft by around 10AM, so knowing your airplane's performance is crucial. Granted, we were flying a 310 so there were not any issues at hand, but the local flight schools' 172 wasn't having the greatest time.
 
cowman said:
What's the best way over- to go down south through TX, NM, AZ and up or to try to find a pass somewhere?
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Advice from a no-time/no-experience pre-student. Head for Midland/Odessa, TX, or even Carlsbad, NM, then work your way along the border through NM, AZ, and then into San Diego. That would be I-8 and I-10 if you're a hi-way flyer. The scenery isn't all that great, but you won't have to worry about testing the limits of you or your plane. Just be wary of a few restricted areas here and there along the way. November the weather would be perfect.
 
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From St Louis to California - depends entirely what you want to see. If the Grand Canyon & Las Vegas, NV are on your wish list, the southern route (mostly I-40) is fairly easy. Starting in May, you'll want to fly very early in the morning, be on the ground by noon-ish to avoid Tstorms and bumps. Pull out your handy tablet and look at the colors of the maps. Green & Yellow good, dark brown, not good unless you're familiar with the area. I've always wanted to follow Route 66, it still exists in many places out west. In fact ABQ has a huge sign over the road, right in town.

Straight line from STL to ABQ can be done at 6500 without any problems until you get to about 30 nm east of ABQ. From ABQ to Winslow (INW) then to Prescott (PRC) is 8500 almost the entire way, may need to climb up to 9500 or go around higher area for a bit just south of Flagstaff (FLG). With that route, you'll be on the direct line to stop off at Sedona before you get to Prescott. If interested, you can fly one of the 3 (or 4?) GA routes over the Grand Canyon then head west into Las Vegas, NV.

In SoCal you've got one of the largest collections of MOA & Restricted home to Luke AFB (nw of Phoenix), Army's Yuma Proving Grounds (Yuma, AZ - which will be the new west coast when the Big One hits California), China Lake (Navy - in the desert!) and Edwards AFB. There are known routes and on flight following, ATC will help you thru the area. For example, Lake Havasu is under the Turtle MOA but the bottom of Turtle is 11K. Once at Lake Havasu, someone from SoCal needs to chime in - I haven't flown west of Edwards.

Northern route best bet is I-70 to Denver area then north to I-80. Or, if you prefer the all-80 route, STL to (CYS) Cheyenne, WY. Again, no need to go over 6500 until just east of Cheyenne. Even stopping at Sidney (SNY) to see the original Cabelas, is only 6500.

I-80 takes you to Laramie, Medicine Bow VOR (MBW), Rawlins, Rock Springs, Ft Bridger, and soon you're at Salt Lake City. Max alt you'll need is 10.5. If you're not used to flying above 5000 MSL, you may want to borrow an O2 tank. It really helps.

Just west of Rock Springs is Green River, home of 48U - Greater Green River Intergalactic Spaceport.

After Salt Lake City, need to find a NorCal local for more details.
 
I live on the border of CO and NM just on the west edge of the Rockies. Home airport is at 6000 msl and many nearby are 7-9000 msl altitudes. Quite a few 180 Cherokees and Archers around, a friend of mine has one. They do pretty well. The main thing to remember is that they are two-passenger airplanes in the mountains. Travel as light as you can. Learn how to lean your mixture for takeoff and do it every time (above 4000 msl). Accelerate in ground effect until you reach Vy, then climb; you have to remember to do this or you are giving up a lot of performance, and you don't really learn that until you fly at high density altitudes with lower performance aircraft. As mentioned before, fly before noon if at all possible, and stay out of high wind situations in mountainous terrain. Unless you travel a long way south you'll be needing to fly at least at 12,500 for most of the passes. Any training is always good, but I don't feel that mountain specific training is absolutely required.
 
I've gone back and forth across the country 3 times in a NA single. I went the ELP (southern) route every single time (coming and going from the LAX-area). The ABQ pass wasn't ever really an option for me as weather was always the deciding factor. I followed the airways and flew between 10,000' and 12,000'. No issues whatsoever. Plenty of terrain clearance and they were all smooth flights across all times of the day. I guess I can consider myself lucky up to this point.

Edit: After reading you're based in STL, any northern route would be a better option for you. The route I took is waaay out of the way.
 
cowman said:
So for reference I'm based at KUIN near St Louis and I'm flying a PA-28-181 Archer II with a service ceiling of a little over 13,000. At this time I'm only rated for VFR.

My wife and I are discussing possible destinations for later this year, possibly around Nov. I've now been down to FL and TX and most likely will be back again. Also thinking about the East coast...

But we've not tried to go West yet. We've greatly enjoyed hitting places in the off-season months while they're still warm and enjoying destination towns while there are no crowds. I'm thinking maybe somewhere in California... maybe several places in California.

Thing is there are all these tall mountains between here and there. I've never flown in anything but flatlands and wouldn't know what I was doing in that sort of terrain. What's the best way over- to go down south through TX, NM, AZ and up or to try to find a pass somewhere? I don't mind a long trip with a few overnights, especially if we can plan it around fun stuff to see/do along the way. I'm a little intimidated by mountain flying just because I would have no idea what I'm getting into so wondering if they're an "easy" route across. Easy by definition of a flatlander not an experienced mountain pilot ;)
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Back in the day, I delivered PA-28s from Vero Beach to Seattle. IFR and night flight was prohibited by insurance. Route would depend on weather, but more often than not I would head west and make my first stop in Texas...Midland sticks in my mind. Past ELP and into Arizona or SoCal before the last leg home. Crossed the Rockies at El Paso (southern route) or
cowman said:
So for reference I'm based at KUIN near St Louis and I'm flying a PA-28-181 Archer II with a service ceiling of a little over 13,000. At this time I'm only rated for VFR.

My wife and I are discussing possible destinations for later this year, possibly around Nov. I've now been down to FL and TX and most likely will be back again. Also thinking about the East coast...

But we've not tried to go West yet. We've greatly enjoyed hitting places in the off-season months while they're still warm and enjoying destination towns while there are no crowds. I'm thinking maybe somewhere in California... maybe several places in California.

Thing is there are all these tall mountains between here and there. I've never flown in anything but flatlands and wouldn't know what I was doing in that sort of terrain. What's the best way over- to go down south through TX, NM, AZ and up or to try to find a pass somewhere? I don't mind a long trip with a few overnights, especially if we can plan it around fun stuff to see/do along the way. I'm a little intimidated by mountain flying just because I would have no idea what I'm getting into so wondering if they're an "easy" route across. Easy by definition of a flatlander not an experienced mountain pilot ;)
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Back in the day, I delivered PA-28s (Cherokee 140, 141, 180) from Vero Beach to Seattle. There was no "mountain flying" as we usually use the term. Highest pass I flew over was Mullan Pass in Montana and I cleared that at 8500. Going south through El Paso is a non-event. On the one trip that I landed near STL I ran into a squall line near Altus, OK and had to make a quickie landing and have the plane pulled into a hangar before a hailstorm hit...can't bang up a new airplane, ya know.

Bob
 
Fearless Tower said:
I know people like to push it, but you really do not need 'mountain training' to safely do the SAF/ABQ route. There is no mountain pass flying along there. Your primary concern is going to be takeoff performance (and turbulence) if you are flying in the afternoon. If the timing of your trip has you passing the area in the afternoon, I'd recommend landing at SAF and staying overnight and then departing the next morning before it gets warm.
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I agree and would say the same for the northern route through Wyoming. I've done the I-80 route twice and it was not an issue (mostly a flat lander growing up and didn't have mountain specific training, just what I'd read online and in print).

First trip was KFLV-KCYS-KOGD-KRNO. Second trip was KCPS-KGRI-KEVW-KRNO. Those are the airports I stopped at for fuel and a break and did both in less than 12 hours each time. There are plenty of other airports along the route to choose from as well. I was ferrying my aircraft and wanted to get home, so I was a bit crazy with pushing through. I did both trips IFR with O2 as I cruised at 12,000 so that helped keep me refreshed even though it wasn't required. No need to go that high if VFR, but would still recommend a tank even if you're down at 10.5 or lower if you're not used to it.

Biggest challenge I had was dealing with the bumps in the afternoon through WY, UT, and NV. Fly early in the morning if you can (don't be like me and absorb the bumps just to push through...:rolleyes:). As others mentioned, watch the winds speeds crossing the mountain range east of Salt Lake and than again across the Sierra's from Reno to Sacramento if going along I-80 (recommended route for getting into NorCal). The trip from SLC can be done at 8,500 by just following I-80 through the valley's instead of crossing the ridgelines that run N-S for the most part. If you follow I-80 on the sectional between Salt Lake and Reno, you'll see how it winds around the taller peaks and ridges. Not much out in the northern NV areas, so following I-80 will give you some options in an emergency (i.e. vehicle/truck traffic below).

I have some photos up from the first trip here: http://www.67m20e.com/1/archives/09-2015/1.html

The second trip is here: http://www.67m20e.com/1/post/2016/09/bringing-home-new-plane.html

Cheers,
Brian
 
You don't need mountains to see how high your airplane can climb. Lean it for best rpm, best power. Go up and see. Take some oxygen. Calculate Density Altitude, thats the altitude that matters. Now you know.
 
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Sorry about the kinda duplicate post.

Bob
 
You might wanna re-think your thread title ... :eek:

But seriously, folks ...

If you're headed to Southern California, the El Paso -> Tucson -> Yuma -> San Diego route is the lowest and flattest, and would probably offer the best weather choices in November. Dalhart -> Santa Fe -> Phoenix is prettier, higher terrain, but not too rough, if you dogleg south around the mountains southeast of Santa Fe.

By November (or any time after Labor Day, for that matter) it's tough to plan a VFR trip to the Pacific Northwest with any confidence and without lengthy weather delays.

In good summer weather, though, the northern routes to the Northwest are spectacular. I-80 through southern Wyoming is not bad for a light single (just mind the density altitude and winds, which can be hellacious), then southern Idaho and I-84 to Portland. In northern Montana, Marias Pass (US Hwy 2 and the original Great Northern Railroad) is the lowest crossing of the Divide north of New Mexico (around 4500' MSL) -- and the scenery is unforgettable. But you're following a narrow valley with high peaks on both sides.

One thing I've always wanted to do, but so far never had the opportunity, is to fly the route of Lewis & Clark's 1804-05 trip west from St. Louis. That would be up the Missouri to its source in southwest Montana, then over the mountains to pick up the Snake River to its confluence with the Columbia near Pasco, and on to Astoria, Oregon.
 
coloradobluesky said:
You don't need mountains to see how high your airplane can climb. Lean it for best rpm, best power. Go up and see. Take some oxygen. Calculate Density Altitude, thats the altitude that matters. Now you know.
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I was going to say the same thing. Only he might not need to worry about oxygen (might not get high enough)...

I'd do it at the kind of loads I anticipated carrying on the trip. See how high you can get the plane and what it feels like doing it. Some people will also simulate high DA takeoffs by taking off with partial power. The first time you take off with 5,000+ DA it might be an eye opener.

Other than that, I agree with the guys saying you don't necessarily need a mountain flying course to be ok out west. Just be smart about what you're doing and do your homework ahead of time.
 
Plan on clearing the mountains you are flying over by 1000' works well.
 
Read about mountain flying. Just the basics. Clear terrain by a thousand or so. Approach ridges at 45 degrees so you can easily turn back if there's a down draft and then turn to 90 as you cross in case there is a downdraft on the other side. Bring Boost oxygen or something and a cheap pulse oximeter from the pharmacy because you will be in the 85% range even below the legal oxygen altitudes, which were designed around getting across the Rockies without oxygen rather than around what your body needs. Calculate DA for takeoff. Know that your indicated airspeed is what matters for takeoff and landing and your ground speed will be faster but doesn't matter. And bring a camera. It's doable and, if you're cautious, it's safe.
 
You will have such a good time if you fly to California! We flew from Detroit to Palm Springs and Catalina Islands as the furthest point West in December 2016. We crossed the Rockies North of Albuquerque (someone already suggested Las Vegas, NM, which is directly on the other side of the mountain range).

We had also considered a more Southern course. That course would have been via El Paso (we had White Sands and Truth & Consequences on our list) and Tuscon than either San Diego or Palm Springs.

Because we definitely wanted to fly the Mooney to Catalina Island we decided to fly as soon as possible to Palm Springs and CI. We also checked off Death Valley, Grand Canyon, Monument Valley and Santa Fe. White Sands got a victim of the weather in December and will remain on our bucket list.

Here is our tour - we flew at 12,000 ft from Texas to California:

rps20170101_181345.jpg
 
Watch the EAA webinar on mountain flying... solid info and maybe an hour and a half. One point through being VFR then really watch the weather, the hills can turn nasty real quick. Last week I flew from OKC to Scottsdale and back. I took the Texas panhandle across To ABQ and then SW towards I thin SJN onto Deer Valley. You really don't 'need' to go much higher than 9K or so. I chose to in order to negate some down drafts. There will also be a few times you have no landing spots if something happens. Work that within your comfort level and follow the highway if that's the case.

Now why I mention weather is it was clear on the way back, I also have ADSB onboard and knew of some patchy weather on the leg from AZ to ABQ. ADSB showed a bit of green and I was flying back at 11500 over some clouds when ahead they looked much higher. I dropped below them and slowly started getting closed in and it began to snow. I spent 3 mins flying in a circle to pick up a pop up IFR clearance to ABQ back at 11,000. Flew in the clouds with snow (no icing) a good 45 mins before breaking out. If I was VFR only I probably could of made it back to SNJ but it's a dangerous situation. So if you're VFR only you have to be careful to not Get caught in weather and CFIT.

Also on DA, unless you're landing at small airports you shouldn't have an issue. Took off from a fuel stop at 9K DA (7k field elevation). I was close to gross so long ground roll and slow climb out, just manage your energy. I tend to do high DA takeoffs as soft fields. Stay in ground effect, get your speed and climb out as needed.
 
As a pilot out of Salt Lake, just be aware the distances between stops sometimes. Call ahead to make sure fuel is available. I almost got burned once flying from SLC to DEN. My planned stop didn't have fuel available as I had assumed. Still made an improvised stop but not ideal. On the return I called ahead to a different airport (Superbowl Sunday) and was assured they would be ready for me, and they were. Even in the middle of the game.
 
Based in Denver and have spent my entire 32 year flying career in the western US, so here goes....

Murphey's advice to get most of the way there is solid and I would echo that. I recommend a loop where you take his southerly route outbound and then return via his northerly route. This will (generally) give you more favorable winds both ways.

Try to go in September or October if you can. Winds over the Intermountain West get sketchy between November and April when the jet stream drops down for the winter, and you could end up with lots of turbulence over high terrain. As others have mentioned, flying early in the day often helps.

Once in CA I would highly recommend Santa Monica, Catalina and Santa Barbara down south, then up to San Luis Obispo and Monterey in the central part of the state, then up to the Bay Area and Napa, then follow I-80 northeast to Tahoe and points east to get back home.

I flew a 1980 Archer II from the Bay Area to Minneapolis in May of 2000 with no problems. Crossed several mountain ranges in Nevada, then the Grand Tetons and Bighorns in Wyoming with no problems. Never had to go higher that 11,500'.

Hope you pull it off. Flying out west is pretty hard to beat.
 
What you need is a list of airports with cafe's either on field or within walking distance that have lunch. That saves you from taking courtesy cars (another useful list) because typical day is to fly in the morning, fuel up at lunch and fly in the afternoon. Another option for lunch is to pack a subway sandwich or a cooler picnic. (cooler and thermos). Then you need an airport with an on field hotel or one where the hotel will come pick you up and drop you off. Good luck!
 
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Follow I80 through salt lake city, you can do the whole trip around 8k feet or so. I did it in a J5 over fourth of july weekend. Know your airplane and you will be fine.
 
colojo said:
Winds over the Intermountain West get sketchy between November and April when the jet stream drops down for the winter, and you could end up with lots of turbulence over high terrain.
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I can vouch for that. I've had all three passengers puking in bags due to that.
 
The information in a mountain flying course will help you. You do not fly in the middle of a valley. You should stay towards one side. The theory is that if you have to turn around you have a lot more open space available to you to navigate in rather than having rising terrain closer.

Dean
 
codeeno said:
The information in a mountain flying course will help you. You do not fly in the middle of a valley. You should stay towards one side. The theory is that if you have to turn around you have a lot more open space available to you to navigate in rather than having rising terrain closer.

Dean
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Don't fly near the mountains where the wind is hitting on the opposite side (that's where rotor and mountain wave is the most severe). Fly the middle or on the opposite side of the valley to get the best air. Avoid canyons and narrow valleys. Fly perpendicular and over them not in them. Follow interstates since those roads are carved in the natural passes in mountain ranges.
 
Some of the advice in this thread is truly amazing. ;)
 
If you get a downdraft on one side of the valley, try the other side. Updrafts occur on the windward side of the mountains. In Colorado, that is usually the west side of north south range of mountains. Dont forget to reset your altimeter when you cross a divide. It changes quite a bit from one side to the other.

You may encounter a hill on downwind or base that will obstruct your view of the runway. The typical reaction is to stop descending, which can leave you high on final and have to go around. If so, go around!
 
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Agree with everything so far. CA is its own beast. With the abundance of Hot R areas and interesting terrain, you're limited to crossing the final ranges to LA or the Central Valley, you'll likely have to avoid the EDW area and limit yourself to transitioning west through the Banning Pass out of PSP or up through Palmdale.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
cgrab said:
Fly in the middle of the air and stay away from the "terrain".
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Not even close to correct.

Me approaching Rollins pass today at 13,900' in a 160hp skyhawk.
IMG_20170406_121612569.jpg
 
I have a 160hp Warrior and have had no problem with the mountain passes. In Feb. I took off in the AM from Greeley and flew west over Estes Park and then over Rocky Mountain NP and followed the CO River to the west end of Colo. I had a good day for it. Winds were calm w/ clear skies and I even caught some updraft right at the pass which lifted me to 14K.

I have also flown through La Veta Pass, Mosca Pass, and across Angel Fire without a problem but have always had good weather and light winds. YMMV!

My mountain training was limited to reading the forums, other online info, and an hour ground instruction with a CFI in Monte Vista, CO.

I monitor my O2 with a Oximeter but have never seen it below the 90's.
 
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