Personal Minimums and a No Go

azpilot

azpilot

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azpilot
What do you all do for personal minimums? Do you have them written down somewhere? Do you keep a list of all the conditions you won't fly in in your kneeboard or flight bag? I think that I personally need to come up with a good set of personal minimums. Through all of my private training I always flew in what I call "super-VFR". Visibility was always at least 25 miles or more. Ceilings were always at least 10,000' or more. The most wind I ever encountered was maybe a 8 to 10 knot cross wind component. I am coming up on 100 hours of total time now. As I start to encounter more marginal conditions, I want to be able to make a decision with confidence base on personal minimum I have already established.

This last Saturday I was taking my neighbors flying. They are an older couple (mid 60's - I am 35). I had checked the weather that morning, and I didn't see anything that really worried me, but when we got out of the car at the airport, I got hit by a massive gust of wind, and all of the flags and wind socks were pegged horizontal and flapping vigorously in the breeze. The current winds were 15 knots gusting to 20 knots at 60 degrees off the runway. The TAF said they were going to 15 gusting to 25 knots at 60 degrees off the runway. I had a chat with an instructor, and made the decision not to go flying that day. I have landed in those kinds of conditions before, and am fairly confident that I could do it again, but I wanted to by absolutely certain I could do it again.

I feel like I made the right decision. I wanted my neighbors to have a good, enjoyable and comfortable experience. They would not have had that had we gone flying that morning. Had it been a solo flight that day, I would have just grabbed one of the instructors and got in some awesome crosswind landing experience.
 
Nothing written, but as someone once said, it's like good porn, you can't say what makes it good but you know it when you see it.

There are days when on paper it looks great, winds aren't that bad, but you can see a storm brewing in the distance, there are other times when the visibility isn't great but it's early and from local knowledge you know as you go it's going to burn off and get better, think go and no go is too dynamic for a laundry list on a knee board.
 
No, there's no hard number. I look at the weather conditions and my conditions and make a decision. Can't tell you the number of times I've driven rather than flown.
 
My minimums go down when I'm carrying pax. I can take a beating up there and not get sick but I know my pax can't and their comfort is my number one concern. Good for you for canceling the flight. Go up with an instructor on windy and less than ideal days so you can get more comfortable.
 
You want flying to be fun. In that case, those conditions likely would of been bumpy and they'd of been ready to get on the ground soon after takeoff.

As an aside, I always try to take people up for their first time in the evening as it's usually pretty smooth. Plus twi-light is a beautiful time to fly.
 
Good call. You only want nearly ideal conditions if you're flying non-pilot pax. I'll fly in five miles visibility, but only locally at this stage of my experience. (In the hazy southeastern US, 10 miles visibility is a good day; 25+ is rare, but we've had a few so far this year!) Winds are another matter. I'll fly in 12-15 knot winds if they're within 30 degrees of runway heading. I'm limiting my direct crosswind max to 7 knots for the foreseeable future. My instructor once told me if I only flew in calm weather I'd rarely get to fly!
 
My "minimums" vary with my mission. I may be willing to deal with crappier conditions solo when I am flying somewhere for transportation vs with passengers for a joy ride but there is no hard and fast rule as to what those conditions are, it is a culmination of a lot of information to base a go/no go decision.

I always have in the back of my mind as a premise for my decision...I would rather be down here wishing I was up there than being up there wishing I was down here.
 
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azpilot said:
What do you all do for personal minimums? Do you have them written down somewhere? Do you keep a list of all the conditions you won't fly in in your kneeboard or flight bag? I think that I personally need to come up with a good set of personal minimums. Through all of my private training I always flew in what I call "super-VFR". Visibility was always at least 25 miles or more. Ceilings were always at least 10,000' or more. The most wind I ever encountered was maybe a 8 to 10 knot cross wind component. I am coming up on 100 hours of total time now. As I start to encounter more marginal conditions, I want to be able to make a decision with confidence base on personal minimum I have already established.

This last Saturday I was taking my neighbors flying. They are an older couple (mid 60's - I am 35). I had checked the weather that morning, and I didn't see anything that really worried me, but when we got out of the car at the airport, I got hit by a massive gust of wind, and all of the flags and wind socks were pegged horizontal and flapping vigorously in the breeze. The current winds were 15 knots gusting to 20 knots at 60 degrees off the runway. The TAF said they were going to 15 gusting to 25 knots at 60 degrees off the runway. I had a chat with an instructor, and made the decision not to go flying that day. I have landed in those kinds of conditions before, and am fairly confident that I could do it again, but I wanted to by absolutely certain I could do it again.

I feel like I made the right decision. I wanted my neighbors to have a good, enjoyable and comfortable experience. They would not have had that had we gone flying that morning. Had it been a solo flight that day, I would have just grabbed one of the instructors and got in some awesome crosswind landing experience.
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Good for you wanting to avoid giving them a bad ride. You have a good spidey sense. Trust that feeling and don't ignore it!
 
I don't have my minimums written down, but I have a general idea of what I'm looking for based on the purpose of flight. If I'm headed somewhere solo, I'll take things down to maybe just above the lowest approach back at the home field (with forecasts above minimums at the destination). But, I'm IFR rated.

I've also canceled sightseeing flights for friends with winds in the low teens, because I knew it was going to be bumpy at altitude and wanted to give them a positive first experience with GA. (They don't know it, but I still went flying that day.)

If you're trying to come up with minimums, nothing beats going up with an instructor on a day you normally wouldn't fly. Evaluate your own performance and ask them how they think you did... and let them know you're trying to develop realistic minimums. You may be surprised with the results. (I dragged my instructor out on a day where it was 25G35 90 degrees off the runway and didn't break the plane... I wish it was prettier, but it was safe.)

Also, in case this helps, I had it emailed to me fairly recently: https://www.aopa.org/-/media/files/...ntracts/personalminimumscontractvfr.pdf?la=en (There's an IFR version as well, in case someone's interested in it.)

I'd say it was a good call to cancel the sightseeing flight, but maybe a missed opportunity to not go flying (either solo or with and instructor) to see how things felt on a day you might not normally go. Getting out of the comfort zone (slightly, and with baby steps) is really a good way to build confidence, IMO.
 
My personal minimums change depending on my health, being tired, etc. A low, gray, scuzzy day may be no problem when I'm sharp and rested but with a head cold and a long day behind me it may be a different story.
 
mjburian said:
Also, in case this helps, I had it emailed to me fairly recently: https://www.aopa.org/-/media/files/...ntracts/personalminimumscontractvfr.pdf?la=en (There's an IFR version as well, in case someone's interested in it.)

I'd say it was a good call to cancel the sightseeing flight, but maybe a missed opportunity to not go flying (either solo or with and instructor) to see how things felt on a day you might not normally go. Getting out of the comfort zone (slightly, and with baby steps) is really a good way to build confidence, IMO.
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I like that AOPA card. I also like the idea of having different minimums based on mission type. I like the idea of thinking through these thing ahead of time, but I also think it is important to know your local area and conditions. Given this time of year here in the Phoenix area, the mornings tend to be calm, but the winds tend to pick up as the temperature rises. That, in addition to what the TAF was telling me, was part of the reason I decided not to go flying that day.

I agree on it being a missed opportunity to not go up with an instructor that day. Unfortunately, I had given my neighbors a ride to the airport, and had to get them back home. After that I had other commitments.
 
You have to set your own minimums,that you know your comfortable with,as you build time you will change the minimums. Flying with pax ,the minimums will probably be higher,the idea is to give your passengers a nice ,easy ride. It's never good to upset ,or scare your friends.
 
frfly172 said:
You have to set your own minimums,that you know your comfortable with,as you build time you will change the minimums. Flying with pax ,the minimums will probably be higher,the idea is to give your passengers a nice ,easy ride. It's never good to upset ,or scare your friends.
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Agreed, minimums will change, except when it comes to pax. I have one daughter that loves roller coasters, but can't deal with a little turbulence. She's ready to fly with me again after two years, so you bet I'm gonna wait until there's a calm evening to go.
 
azpilot said:
I like that AOPA card. I also like the idea of having different minimums based on mission type. I like the idea of thinking through these thing ahead of time, but I also think it is important to know your local area and conditions. Given this time of year here in the Phoenix area, the mornings tend to be calm, but the winds tend to pick up as the temperature rises. That, in addition to what the TAF was telling me, was part of the reason I decided not to go flying that day.

I agree on it being a missed opportunity to not go up with an instructor that day. Unfortunately, I had given my neighbors a ride to the airport, and had to get them back home. After that I had other commitments.
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You definitely need to take local knowledge in account... good point.

And circumstances that day didn't let you fly... no worries. But try to find another day to go up and see how you handle things you're not quite certain about. Though, if it's more than just a LITTLE out of your comfort zone, definitely take an instructor along.
 
Written minimums.

2000 ft ceiling to fly locally, 4000 expected for the entire route if I'm leaving the local area (more than 25 miles).
Visibility 10SM.
Xwind component not greater than 10 kts here or destination.
Gusts not greater than 14 over wind speed (10 G 25 is out).
No actual thunderstorms within 25 miles.

This is during planning. If I encounter more during the flight, I'll deal with it. But, I'm still learning...
 
The worst I experienced was 17 knot at 75 degrees but that was not that difficult. It was the dang bumpy ass ride on the way that kicked my ass for 3 hrs getting there.
 
My personal minimum when solo is that if I'm not SURE that I can either complete or divert the flight safely, then I don't go.

If there are going to be passengers, I become more conservative, if anything, and in addition I take into account what they may be comfortable with. And I make sure that they know that conditions could arise that would make it unwise to try to get to the intended destination on the originally planned day and time.
 
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azpilot said:
What do you all do for personal minimums? Do you have them written down somewhere? Do you keep a list of all the conditions you won't fly in in your kneeboard or flight bag? I think that I personally need to come up with a good set of personal minimums. Through all of my private training I always flew in what I call "super-VFR". Visibility was always at least 25 miles or more. Ceilings were always at least 10,000' or more. The most wind I ever encountered was maybe a 8 to 10 knot cross wind component. I am coming up on 100 hours of total time now. As I start to encounter more marginal conditions, I want to be able to make a decision with confidence base on personal minimum I have already established.

This last Saturday I was taking my neighbors flying. They are an older couple (mid 60's - I am 35). I had checked the weather that morning, and I didn't see anything that really worried me, but when we got out of the car at the airport, I got hit by a massive gust of wind, and all of the flags and wind socks were pegged horizontal and flapping vigorously in the breeze. The current winds were 15 knots gusting to 20 knots at 60 degrees off the runway. The TAF said they were going to 15 gusting to 25 knots at 60 degrees off the runway. I had a chat with an instructor, and made the decision not to go flying that day. I have landed in those kinds of conditions before, and am fairly confident that I could do it again, but I wanted to by absolutely certain I could do it again.

I feel like I made the right decision. I wanted my neighbors to have a good, enjoyable and comfortable experience. They would not have had that had we gone flying that morning. Had it been a solo flight that day, I would have just grabbed one of the instructors and got in some awesome crosswind landing experience.
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You done good. Any time that still, small voice in your head says "Don't go," listen to it.

Bob Gardner
 
I don't have written minimums, but just some rules of thumb:

1. Alone: winds much over 20 kts or a crosswind component much over 15, or a gust factor much more than 10 kts, I don't go. Having an instructor along doesn't really change my minimums there as my concern is for sudden unpredictable gusts that no one could reliably correct for. (Yes the instructor might be able to save our skins, but perhaps not the plane.) I made an exception once: my instrument checkride, when 20-25kt crosswinds were forecast. Never again, even though that landing turned out to be a greaser.

2. I won't go into IMC with an Airmet Tango in effect for any altitude I have to go through, if I don't have reason to believe the airmet was too broadly drawn. If I'm IFR current and proficient, as long as there's a field within reasonable distance where I'm pretty much guaranteed to be able to get in, I'll go if turbulence or winds aren't an issue. I certainly don't have a problem with shooting an approach to minimums, since I know I won't be tempted to push below DH/MDA.

3. With non-pilot pax, I avoid any conditions I think would make them uncomfortable. In most cases I wouldn't go into IMC unless they said they were okay with it (no history of motion sickness, not afraid of not having visual cues). If I expect to encounter anything above mild turbulence, it's a no-go.

OP: you did good I think. :)
 
It's amazing how my minimums are changing. Winds use to be one of the biggest things I set limits to. It's been so darn windy the last couple months and I did all of my IFR training in it and now winds don't phase me at all. Bumps don't even bother me any more. Sure, there are times when it's not fun but I'm not on edge anymore. I still have minimums and am proud to have them, simply saying that where they were a couple months ago vs where they are today is a remarkable difference stemming from my confidence, training, and experience.
 
Depends on whether or not its for business or fun. If it's for work, the weather is legal for me to launch/shoot the approach, and I'm not violating any company policies I'll go. The only exception to that is icing - I will not play around in it at all (I fly a FIKI plane) If it's forecast to be anything more than light and I can't complete the flight without going IMC I will scrub it. If I'm taking someone flying for fun I generally won't fly in anything I think my mom would be scared in (she's not a good flyer).
 
I think there are two distinct issues here.

I see personal minimums as "personal." They are the bare minimum conditions I am willing to fly in. It is a skill, safety and competence number. It has nothing to do with what the mission is or whether or not there are passengers. If my personal crosswind minimums are 10 KTS direct crosswind, it means I don't land when it is 11. It is a contract with myself. Written if it helps to treat it seriously, but oral is ok if it has the same effect for you.

What I am willing to accept (better than my personal minimums) for certain types of flights depends on the type of flight and is not a "personal minimums" issue. Examples. Calm, clear days for first-time passengers, as others mentioned. The discomfort of turbulence is ok for a transportation flight but not for a joyride. And I don't fly on rainy days if the destination is an outdoor cookout.
 
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Personal minimums?

30 knots total wind.

VMC only with a convective sigmet or freezing level below 6000.

With motion sensitive passengers, much less wind.

In high mountains, wind aloft below 15 at peak heights, no IMC.

For special conditions, minimums might get lowered. Like, a 25 knot gusty crosswind might be a bad idea on a short, narrow, obstructed field.
 
Forgot to mention my rule of thumb regarding icing, David reminded me.

4. Icing is a no-no. My plane is not FIKI. No-go if any chance of liquid precip at an altitude where the temperature is below freezing. Generally speaking, no IMC in below-freezing temps. Exceptions to the latter would be brief excursions or busting through a thin layer, especially when temps below the layer are above freezing.

Also, I'm much more attuned to the possibility of bad turbulence here in the hills of VT, and will usually avoid flying at all unless the mission is important when an Airmet Tango is issued or if winds aloft are over 25 kts.
 
No shame in canceling a flight and explaining to passengers that the sightseeing trip would NOT be fun due to bad weather. It beats cleaning vomit from your airplane and apologizing to your neighbors for months. (and turning them against aviation for sure)

I yet have to take the MIL up for a sightseeing flight. I know 100% that she would not enjoy a bumpy ride so we are waiting for the perfect weather day. She does not mind and fully supports that idea, she wants to enjoy herself too.
 
Depends on the mission. If I'm just flying to burn avgas I'll skip the high winds. If I'm taking a trip I'll happily fly them.
 
My "health"
Plane's condition
Weather actual and forecast

Type of flight
Local or cc
For fun or business
With or without passengers
 
azpilot said:
What do you all do for personal minimums? Do you have them written down somewhere?
Click to expand...

It's what you are comfortable with and different case by case. There are so many variables. One ceiling height might be comfortable with good visibility, but not so much with poorer visibility. The stability of the of the weather system is important too. Is it likely to remain the same or get worse? Flat or mountainous terrain? Day or night? When you get a few more hours and it'll make more sense. You'll have models in your head and remember how they felt and turned out. Sometimes you'll say, "Not going there again" and other times you'll say, "No problem, I can handle that."
 
tinerj said:
My "health"
Plane's condition
Weather actual and forecast

Type of flight
Local or cc
For fun or business
With or without passengers
Click to expand...
I think if one's personal minimums (baseline for what we consider safe for us according the FAA's Risk Management Handbook) change (i.e., decrease) because the mission is important, we are engaging ion a bit of dangerous missionitis. One might make upward adjustments for certain factors, such as being tired or the pressures of having family on board, or the fact that the flight is supposed to be for fun, but the baseline doesn't lower without careful consideration, and never for the purposes of a specific flight.

But perhaps we just have different definitions of what personal minimums are.
 
I was addressing comfort as well as safety in the go vs no go decision.

The importance of the flight can be a factor in taking comfort into account.

But the "importance" should not be a factor in taking safety into account.
 
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