EAA bans guns at OSH

The majority of people taking their kid into the EAA museum would prefer that the other patrons not be armed.
Even if that happened to be true -- and we really have no way of determining that without a poll -- it's equally likely that the majority of people who don't have pilot's licenses would prefer that you not be allowed to fly those dangerous small airplanes. Same for those unregulated small boats that are always used to smuggle drugs and terrorists.

Should you just accept that too?

Disclaimer: If I did fly to OSH, and if I did carry, I'd probably leave the piece properly secured in the plane just to minimize the hassle and amount fo crap carried around. But I don't feel threatened by lawful CC.
 
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Why on earth should anybody care?

Because when you have 100,000 people at the same spot, 1000 of them are likely to be mentally unstable. Mentally unstable people with firearms are typically undesirable at gathering of hundreds of thousands of people.
People who feel they have to be armed at an event like OSH or in the EAA museum are not mentally stable.
 
At the poker table in Vegas, I have the right to know if any of the players are shills.

If I conduct an aviation training seminar, I have the right to know if any of the attendees are FAA employees.

If you have the right to carry, does that obviate my right to care? Maybe I just want to be sure I'm standing behind you when the shooting starts.



Why on earth should anybody care?
 
I haven't read all the preceding posts, just can't get to all I would like to.

A big problem with concealed carry permits is dealing with where one isn't allowed to carry. Even around locally, if one needs to go to a court or school, where do you leave your weapon? If one flies into OSH carrying from another state because they can, how does one deal with their weapon when they make numerous stops and one prohibits weapons? Does it effectively eliminate the ability to carry?
On the OSH grounds, one might have to go a long distance to take their weapon back to their plane and lock it up and return to where the weapon is prohibited--effectively eliminating the right to carry. That assumes it's legal to secure it in a plane.

Here in Texas where we have had concealed carry for quite awhile now, most businesses have changed signs to prohibit the unlicensed carrying of a weapon. But there are still some businesses that prohibit the carrying by even license holders . That puts someone carrying in a spot if they don't have a place to secure their weapon. Everyone doesn't have a car to go back to.

We also have a prohibition against taking a weapon into certain places like large public gatherings where liquor is served, major sports events, State fairs, etc. I see the annual fly in at OSH as this kind of event and am surprised to hear concealed carry during the flyin is allowed. If it is, there should be a reasonable manner in which weapons can be secured that is reasonably convenient for licensed persons. I think Tom Gresham has stated if the weapon is unloaded in a locked box, that is a safe harbor under Federal law. If one was going to carry there, they should check in advance.

It's always been a problem when I fly over states that prohibit or have different conditions to carry. OTOH, I want a weapon for the unanticipated landing in a remote area where that might be my only defense or for a survival situation. OTOH, I don't want to violate a State's laws where that is prohibited. Problematic on a long, cross country trip where one might unintentionally land where a weapon isn't allowed.

I have had someone run up to my plane while I was on a ramp doing a pre-flight and pull open the passenger side door. Turns out he just wanted to ask about the plane I was flying, but it brought home the fact that most GA planes don't lock from the inside. Someone can just walk up and open those doors. I'd hate to be at an airport with no one around and have a few folks decide they wanted my plane while I was in it and have no ability to deter them.

Best,

Dave
 
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Because when you have 100,000 people at the same spot, 1000 of them are likely to be mentally unstable. Mentally unstable people with firearms are typically undesirable at gathering of hundreds of thousands of people.
People who feel they have to be armed at an event like OSH or in the EAA museum are not mentally stable.

Who said that anybody feels like they have to have a gun? Some folks just prefer it, I know people who putting on a gun is like putting on socks (Welcome to Montana). I occasionally carry my gun, typically when I'm heading into bear country otherwise I find it irritating to lug around. I'm not sure why folks have to give up a freedom they enjoy because of the irrational fears of others.
 
At the poker table in Vegas, I have the right to know if any of the players are shills.

If I conduct an aviation training seminar, I have the right to know if any of the attendees are FAA employees.

If you have the right to carry, does that obviate my right to care? Maybe I just want to be sure I'm standing behind you when the shooting starts.

Does it bother you that someone would be wearing pink socks and you need full disclosure? What about the pocket knife I have in my pocket that is probably as lethal if not more when in close quarters. Being scared of law abiding citizens with a gun is just irrational. And what makes you think someone with bad intentions is going to be deterred by a sign or a law anyway?
 
How do I know that you're a law-abiding citizen and not a former law-abiding citizen who just snapped because some guy was wearing pink socks?

Does it bother you that someone would be wearing pink socks and you need full disclosure? What about the pocket knife I have in my pocket that is probably as lethal if not more when in close quarters. Being scared of law abiding citizens with a gun is just irrational.
 
How do I know that you're a law-abiding citizen and not a former law-abiding citizen who just snapped because some guy was wearing pink socks?
How does anyone know you're not? We don't. Some people like to hedge their bets. :)
 
How do I know that you're a law-abiding citizen and not a former law-abiding citizen who just snapped because some guy was wearing pink socks?

What difference does it make, when I snap, you can point to the sign and say "He should have known, there was a SIGN!!!"
 
Who said that anybody feels like they have to have a gun? Some folks just prefer it, I know people who putting on a gun is like putting on socks (Welcome to Montana). I occasionally carry my gun, typically when I'm heading into bear country otherwise I find it irritating to lug around. I'm not sure why folks have to give up a freedom they enjoy because of the irrational fears of others.


Anybody that won't go somewhere because they can't carry their gun I would say they "Feel like they have to have a gun".

The possibility of being shot by some nut job at a public gathering is not without precedent, so it's not an irrational fear. OTOH a person that won't go into the EAA museum or to Airventure because they are not allowed to carry a gun, THAT defines irrational.
 
Go ahead and ban guns at OSH ... it doesn't affect me.
Go ahead and ban small planes around DC ... it doesn't affect me.
Go ahead and ban ... fill in the blank ... until it affects me ... then "Hey? Help? Where'd everybody go?"

What possible benefit is there to expressly ban concealed carry weapons? Like a little sign is going to deter someone bent on not following existing rules, like "Thou shall not commit murder." or "Thou shall not steal." or ....

"Oops! Guess I can't rob this establishment. There's a sign that says 'Weapons Prohibited'. Dang!"
 
Go ahead and ban guns at OSH ... it doesn't affect me.

That's just it though, it does affect me, it helps protect me from the random nut job since that with carry being not allowed, any security that spots a weapon will act to neutralize the person with the weapon with no hesitation.

As for me carrying in a situation like Airventure (I'm not opposed to carry in general) the only things I can think can result from that: 1 I lug around an extra few pounds of weight all day, yeah, my feet and ankles need that at Osh:rolleyes: I'm gonna get my side arm all nasty and sweaty, my holster will become nasty. My sidearm will fall and I will be shot by some LEO thinking I'm gonna go postal. There is not one positive scenario I can come up with that revolve around me carrying a gun.
 
Anybody that won't go somewhere because they can't carry their gun I would say they "Feel like they have to have a gun".

The possibility of being shot by some nut job at a public gathering is not without precedent, so it's not an irrational fear. OTOH a person that won't go into the EAA museum or to Airventure because they are not allowed to carry a gun, THAT defines irrational.

I disagree, if you disagree with a policy you can talk with your wallet even if you had no intentions of taking a gun in the first place. Gun control has been in the political crosshairs for a while now it's a touchy subject and people have a "hair trigger" when they feel any threat to their side of the argument. The anti-gun crowd has created this "fight everything anti-gun at all costs" mentality from the pro-gun crowd. I think you're probably more likely to crash your plane flying to OSH than being shot by a legally licensed instant nut job with a gun, but we wouldn't consider you irrational for flying in to OSH given. Me personally, I'm not scared of my fellow Americans, if someone wants to kill me, they will, a sign and a policy aint going to stop them.
 
The reality is that having guns permitted keeps more family people away than it attracts, it's bottom line. Concealed Carry mentality is a minority mentality in this country. The VAST majority of people have no desire to carry and don't trust people who are so afraid they feel they need to carry a gun at all times. While the majority of CC people are not nuts, there is a significant number of total paranoid idiots who carry. It's not like you have to pass any kind of evaluation for mental stability; a lack of a felony conviction is all it takes. Anyone who felt the need for carry in the EAA museum in OSH I would determine to be unstable enough to want to keep out with a firearm.


I hope you understand the circular nature of your post....
 
Here's a realistic scenario: Pilot flies his 1939 Chief from MT to WI for AirVenture, crossing many miles of open nothingness. This pilot chooses to carry a firearm in the event of a letdown in the wilderness (and if you haven't been outside the 95 Corridor you don't know how inhospitable terrain can be...)

Anyway, on safe arrival to Oshkosh, he decides to carry the firearm rather than leave it untended in the aircraft as he peruses the EAA grounds.

So this is is a sign of "mental illness?"

:rolleyes2:

+1 - there are plenty of reasons why one would have a firearm in their possession while at Airventure that isn't because they feel they would need it there. At the end of the day responsible folks aren't comfortable leaving firearms inside a tent, it's much better off on the person.

It'd be in the best interest of EAA (whom is trying to protect the rights of pilots) to not **** off groups like the NRA (whom protect the rights of gun owners). Both are trying to stop big government from destroying their passion. If such groups could open their eyes they could be a stronger yet.

Just because one might not see the reason why someone would have a firearm doesn't mean that someone shouldn't be able to have one. It's a very slippery slope when you start to think otherwise.
 
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That's just it though, it does affect me, it helps protect me from the random nut job since that with carry being not allowed, any security that spots a weapon will act to neutralize the person with the weapon with no hesitation.

As for me carrying in a situation like Airventure (I'm not opposed to carry in general) the only things I can think can result from that: 1 I lug around an extra few pounds of weight all day, yeah, my feet and ankles need that at Osh:rolleyes: I'm gonna get my side arm all nasty and sweaty, my holster will become nasty. My sidearm will fall and I will be shot by some LEO thinking I'm gonna go postal. There is not one positive scenario I can come up with that revolve around me carrying a gun.


I would have thought people who are rational enough to understand flying those dangerous little airplanes wouldn't have an irrational fear of guns.
 
I would have thought people who are rational enough to understand flying those dangerous little airplanes wouldn't have an irrational fear of guns.


I'd say most of the people who attend the EAA museum or OSH are not pilots.
 
Just because one might not see the reason why someone would have a firearm doesn't mean that someone shouldn't be able to have one.
+1

You can go so far as to say "Just because one might not see the reason why someone would have a ____________ doesn't mean that someone shouldn't be able to have a _________________."

(Unless of course, hurting someone is involved).
 
I've only carried at OSH a few times back in the days when I had a duty to do so. And that was only because the paperwork for a lost federally-issued weapon (and the interviews with OPR) are such a PITA.

In years past and this year, I take an axe (for firewood splitting). That's assuming Tracey doesn't scare me on the drive out there. If she does I'll have to get a locking cover for the axehead.
 
In years past and this year, I take an axe (for firewood splitting). That's assuming Tracey doesn't scare me on the drive out there. If she does I'll have to get a locking cover for the axehead.
I will scare you, that's a given. And I have my own axe (and know how to use it).

And Missa and I can pick any lock you use. You're outnumbered, Mister. :dunno:
 
Hell I'm outnumbered with either one of you. The two of you together isn't linear, it's exponential.

To veer back to the original topic, I don't have a problem with EAA having a no-weapons policy. That's their choice.
 
Here's a realistic scenario: Pilot flies his 1939 Chief from MT to WI for AirVenture, crossing many miles of open nothingness. This pilot chooses to carry a firearm in the event of a letdown in the wilderness (and if you haven't been outside the 95 Corridor you don't know how inhospitable terrain can be...)

Anyway, on safe arrival to Oshkosh, he decides to carry the firearm rather than leave it untended in the aircraft as he peruses the EAA grounds.

So this is is a sign of "mental illness?"

:rolleyes2:
Are you saying you're expecting to find wild animals roaming around the galleries of the museum? Even with the dramatic slashing of the staff at the museum (I believe they are down to three paid staff), I don't think it's become overrun by bears.
 
At my airport here in MT, you can land, step out of your plane, throw on your orange vest and hunt right on airport property, It's actually encouraged to keep the critters away. Well, technically you can't do that since, per FWP, it's illegal to hunt for 24 hours over an area where you have been flying (I've seen people cancel flight lessons because of this law). But, suffice to say, seeing orange vests planted around the runway during T/O or Landing is a common scene. Funny, I've never felt threatened with multiple loaded high powered rifles all around me. Actually, never even gave it a thought. I've talked with multiple strangers on the ramp with a rifle in their hand.
 
The Elephant in the room in these discussions is always that...

There are plenty of people out there carrying firearms in posted "no weapons" places anyway. They either don't have a permit for concealed carry and don't care about any of the current laws, or do have a permit and don't care at all about the signs.

Sure... they might get caught someday, they might not.

Wayne's comment "you'll never see my holster" is basically right down this path...

If they install metal detectors... that's a switch from passive enforcement of their policy to active enforcement.
 
At my airport here in MT, you can land, step out of your plane, throw on your orange vest and hunt right on airport property, It's actually encouraged to keep the critters away. Well, technically you can't do that since, per FWP, it's illegal to hunt for 24 hours over an area where you have been flying (I've seen people cancel flight lessons because of this law). But, suffice to say, seeing orange vests planted around the runway during T/O or Landing is a common scene. Funny, I've never felt threatened with multiple loaded high powered rifles all around me. Actually, never even gave it a thought. I've talked with multiple strangers on the ramp with a rifle in their hand.

You're making too much sense Rusty! Better cut it out.......:rolleyes2:
 
Were any of them enroute to OSH?;) If so, did you notify Henning?
At my airport here in MT, you can land, step out of your plane, throw on your orange vest and hunt right on airport property, It's actually encouraged to keep the critters away. Well, technically you can't do that since, per FWP, it's illegal to hunt for 24 hours over an area where you have been flying (I've seen people cancel flight lessons because of this law). But, suffice to say, seeing orange vests planted around the runway during T/O or Landing is a common scene. Funny, I've never felt threatened with multiple loaded high powered rifles all around me. Actually, never even gave it a thought. I've talked with multiple strangers on the ramp with a rifle in their hand.
 
When some body figures out how to tell when the skitzo will start shooting, I'll feel better about being unarmed.

And Wayne is right you'll only see my gun when its being used.
 
When the schizo starts shootin, it's already too late.

Tell that to the dead at Columbine or Virginia Tech where one legal CCW holder could have stopped most of the deaths.

You're demonixing a tool again. Its the same as the Dangerous little planes! Ban them!
 
Tell that to the dead at Columbine or Virginia Tech where one legal CCW holder could have stopped most of the deaths.

You're demonixing a tool again. Its the same as the Dangerous little planes! Ban them!


You already have dead people. I'm not demonizing guns, I have nothing against them and own them. I'm not asking to ban them; I'm pointing out the counterpoint arguments. People act like they can't comprehend the opposing view.

I really wasn't personally concerned about people carrying. What concerned me a lot more was there were pilots who would not attend OSH because they wouldn't be allowed to carry. The former argument is one of debatable opinions both which have reasonable merits, the latter is just nuts.
 
I'm more worried about a flat tire in South Dallas than about flying over the sawtooths in a single. And I'd be willing to compare logbooks with you to determine who has spent more time doing it.

If I got a flat tire in certain parts of town I'd be wishing I took the time to get my CC permit...
 
What concerned me a lot more was there were pilots who would not attend OSH because they wouldn't be allowed to carry.

Put me in the just nuts category then. I'm a CCW holder and I refuse to spend my dollars with any business that colludes with the federal government to impede my 2nd amendment rights.
 
If you encounter the same two thugs that came at me with the switchblades, you'll be wishing you had the gun, and not really caring about the paperwork. Trust me on that.

And if you're wondering whether one 4" .357 will trump two blades, the anwer is yes.

If I got a flat tire in certain parts of town I'd be wishing I took the time to get my CC permit...
 
Not that I would want to carry at OSH, but I wonder if there would be grounds for a lawsuit if a state has a concealed carry law, some establishment posts the no-carry signs without any particular justification, then a patron gets mugged or killed by a criminal inside that establishment that could (perhaps) have been prevented if that person had been allowed to exercise their legal right?
The point is, the patron doesn't have the legal right to possess the weapon on the property if the establishment informs them that weapons are prohibited.
 
Let's not forget the incident that brought concealed carry to Texas. It was a cold blooded, protracted series of murders committed by a lone gunman that reloaded several times. Had any patron been armed and had the guts to return fire, the entire incident could have been stopped much earlier. The testimony of survivors in this incident was very persuasive to Texas legislators. The victim list follows the article.

As a two tour Vietnam infantry veteran that carried automatic weapons all over and that had been in several combat engagements defending our freedom, before concealed carry laws, I couldn't legally carry a firearm here in the U.S. to protect myself from a situation such as this---but the bad guy did illegally.

Dave
============================================

The Luby's massacre was a mass murder that took place on October 16, 1991, in Killeen, Texas, United States when George Hennard ″Jo Jo" [1] drove his pickup truck into a Luby's cafeteria and shot 23 people to death while wounding another 20, subsequently committing suicide by shooting himself. It was the deadliest shooting rampage in American history until the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre.

On October 16, 1991, 35-year-old George Pierre Hennard, an unemployed merchant seaman who was described by others as angry and withdrawn, with a dislike of women, drove his blue 1987 Ford Ranger pickup truck through the front window of a Luby's cafeteria at 1705 East Central Texas Expressway in Killeen. Yelling "This is what Bell County has done to me!", Hennard then opened fire on its patrons and staff with a Glock 17 pistol and, later, a Ruger P89. He stalked, shot, and killed 23 people while wounding another 20 before committing suicide. Approximately 80 people were in the restaurant at the time.
The first victim was local veterinarian Dr. Michael Griffith, 48, who ran to the driver's side of the pickup truck to offer assistance to the driver after the truck came through the window. Hennard also approached 32-year-old Suzanna Hupp and her parents. Her father Al, 71, rushed at Hennard in an attempt to subdue him but was gunned down. A short time later, Hupp's mother Ursula, 67, was also shot and killed.
During the massacre, Hennard allowed a woman and her four-year-old child to leave. Another patron, Tommy Vaughn, threw a chair through a plate-glass window, which provided an escape route for himself and other customers.
Hennard reloaded several times and still had ammunition remaining when he committed suicide by shooting himself in the head after being cornered and wounded by police.[2][3][4]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby's_massacre
 
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