Anyone Here Ever Fly for the Civil Air Patrol?

murphey said:
Doesn't matter, I have no intentions of being a CAP pilot.
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I'll keep that as a to-do item to talk to Stan/Eval about later then. Outside my scope right now.

You've hit the real reason most folks fail or walk away disillusioned with CAP... they weren't ever intending to do something anyway, didn't try, didn't come to anything outside of a Squadron meeting, or didn't organize something, and then have lots of opinions about all that stuff. ;)

Or... they thought CAP does something it doesn't.

Number one thing I could share with anyone about CAP is that it's what you make of it. Literally. I've watched whole Squadrons change personality from the addition of one person who brought passion AND refused to complain about things.

Complaining fixes nothing in an all-volunteer organization. Don't complain about someone else's job unless you're willing to help them fix it. They're a volunteer too.

Rank/Grade means little except that... it proves you've both jumped through the hoops in the Professional Development program and you've put in a certain amount of time in grade doing a volunteer job of some sort.

It's a minimum of 6 years service from 2nd LT to Major.

This isn't a short term "cram it in in-between trips to the mall" kind of volunteer organization. Nor is it really a one-meeting-per-month gig if you're going to get anything out of it.
 
Thanks for all the great responses and insight.

I went to a squadron meeting in small town Texas BEFORE I started this thread. Information from this thread helps me GREATLY in evaluating the squadron and has shown me how important that step is.

From what I can see, and taking into account the comments and information from this thread, looks to be a good squadron to be a part of. I won't bore everyone with the details, but I got an opportunity to see if there was much politics going on and to see what missions they normally fly.

There REALLY didn't seem to be any politics going on. They discussed a mission tentatively scheduled for Saturday and it was quite interesting to watch their interactions with each other. Although the discussion was not as orderly as I would expect, it was all positive and constructive.

Although I ended up learning most of the folks rank from conversation, I had to ask the question to get the subject to come up. Most of the members outranked their squadron commander, and the higher ranking people did not seem to care and did not tell me or indicate their rank.

They have an interesting old fellow as a check pilot who outranks them all, but didn't seem to know or care. They were very interested in the fact that I was a pilot with enough hours to qualify from the get go as a Transport pilot. It wouldn't take long for the hours to qualify as a mission pilot.

They have had some interesting missions in the past and seem to fly alot.

Like many who posted here, I am also a veteran and don't have an interest in getting hung up in a bunch of military protocol, BTDT. It doesn't appear that these guys are hung up on that at all. They seem to do it because they want to help others. IF that turns out to be true and I can also do some flying to help others, I think it would be a good thing to do.

Of course, it would be impossible to know for sure about their personality as a group without being involved for awhile.

All that said, my plate is pretty full right now. My Mom has been through some serious issues and is now in Rehab. I'm working on getting my IR this year, commercial next year and CFI the next so that I have it at retirement time. I don't think this is a good time for me to be taking on extra studying and more time drain.

If the squadron still appears to be a good one when I retire, then I might join and see if I can help them and in the process get in some flying for a meaningful purpose. In the mean time I will be watching for other meaningful organizations that might provide a flying purpose. The problem is that such organizations are not very common out here in the boon docks.

Thanks again for all your thoughts and feedback.
 
N801BH said:
Don't get me wrong.... The CAP is a worthwhile and productive idea..

The execution of their mission is seriously flawed, creates a potential hostile enviroment based on ex military people running roughshod on others who joined the organization in the hopes of helping others, and the old boy network sometimes leads to death. IMHO.
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Sorry, but the "ex-military" folks weren't the problem in the Wings I've been in. We had a much more laid back, go with the flow attitude.

It was the "never have been military but think I am now" types who caused most of the grief.
 
I forgot to comment on the ex military element of the squadron that I visited. I got the impression that if I joined, I would be the only ex military SOB there. I never got any vibes about them being rank happy or anything. In fact I was a little bit surprised at the complete lack of military courtesy, but was happy to see them that way.

Still trying to understand what is so bad about being ex Military.
 
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MBDiagMan said:
Still trying to understand what is so bad about being ex Military.
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Ex military is not bad. It is good. People that have never been in the military not showing respect for those that were by pretending poorly are bad.

One of my students is a Chinook crew chief, just back from the sand. I asked him the other day what he thought of the civil air patrol. His response was pretty funny.
 
Joined at 13 years old as a cadet and stayed for 4 years. Joined as a senior member in early 80's. Flew some FB-111A and KC135A parts runs from Plattsburgh to Pease AFB. Also ride-alongs on some Bomber Low-Level Route Surveys through the Adirondacks (FUN!)... Too much politics so I didn't stay long... Anyway I got enough military during my day job, so I didn't much want to deal with it on my off time...
 
denverpilot said:
Rank/Grade means little except that... it proves you've both jumped through the hoops in the Professional Development program and you've put in a certain amount of time in grade doing a volunteer job of some sort.

It's a minimum of 6 years service from 2nd LT to Major.
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Because I'm AE, I can be CAPT as soon as I submit the paperwork, MAJ if I admit to the PhD.

Rules are different for lawyers, chaplains, physicians and AE.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I forgot to comment on the ex military element of the squadron that I visited. I got the impression that if I joined, I would be the only ex military SOB there. I never got any vibes about them being rank happy or anything. In fact I was a little bit surprised at the complete lack of military courtesy, but was happy to see them that way.
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In my squadron, if I want to see how customs and courtesies are properly done, I watch what the cadets do!
 
jesse said:
Ex military is not bad. It is good. People that have never been in the military not showing respect for those that were by pretending poorly are bad.

One of my students is a Chinook crew chief, just back from the sand. I asked him the other day what he thought of the civil air patrol. His response was pretty funny.
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Okay, I understand.
 
murphey said:
Most of the Senior Members go with the grey slacks & polo shirts. But those are only needed on Official events, e.g. CAP flying missions. Otherwise, whatever you want to show up in to a meeting is usually fine.
You're in the AFW area (me too but Colorado). We have no wing costs, only the annual AFW membership ($35?) which is a tax donation. Costs involved while flying as mission assistant is entirely up to you and the PIC. I've never asked any MA who flew with me to chip in at all.


There are minimum requirements (hours) more to assure the pax than anything else. Be happy, some AFs require an instrument (back east) because of the weather. AFW doesn't - if it's IMC, we probably shouldn't be flying - the hills and ocean, you understand.

I love AFW thinking SLC-APA is a straight-line route. No matter how many times we try to explain it to them, they just don't get it.
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Home sick from work today, it is actually $50 to join, but I did it anyway. Meeting with the President this afternoon in my area for an orientation. Huge event (they had 48 planes fly in last year) coming up at Harris Ranch in April where I can meet all the pilots who I will be assisting. Looking forward to this.
 
I know that in our CAP squadron there were very few who had any rank at all. Most of us didn't care as we weren't there to play hot-shot fighter jock. About the only ones who had any rank I know of were the squadron commander and a couple others in positions of responsibility. We wore Nomex flight suits on missions or when flying CAP owned aircraft. Boots are probably required now......
We had a number of ex and retired military folks many of whom were instrumental in keeping us newbies out of the rocks up high. I got a few BFRs and checkouts done with a retired B36-B52 pilot who was a lynchpin in the squadron. Lots of good stories from him and other former military pilots. We never flew the T34 upside down, looped a 182 or any other silliness but flying at 10 or 11 thousand feet and being 100-500 feet off the ground was a good place to have an experienced person keeping me straight. I thank those guys and the time I spent in the CAP for helping me learn a lot about flying without the hospital time or emergencies. We also did a lot of cadet orientation flights which were optional for the pilots. Those who didn't want to deal with the kids didn't have to. I got a lot of neat insights from taking up kids who had never flown and a lot of smiles. As noted already, all units may not function like this or function at all for that matter but I think the CAP is worth checking out.

Frank
 
I had one of the little wannabes tell me I couldn't go to the GA parking at an airshow. (I flew in, airshow portion was over and I wanted to beat the crowd out.) I told him I was a pilot and pointed at my airplane, he said "No you're not." I pulled out my pilots cert and made the little retard look at it. I had another CAP person refuse to talk to me because I WASN'T part of the CAP and wasn't worth her time. I had a CAP airplane pull on the runway while I was abeam the numbers and tell me to extend my downwind because he was doing his runup. When I was working at the front desk at Boerne over the summer I had one of the "Powered Flight Academy" graduates try to rent an airplane from me. When I told him he would need a checkout from an instructor he told me "You don't understand, I'm with the CAP." He was a student pilot with less than 15 hours.

Just ask any CAP pilot though, and they will tell you how great they are. I've only met 1 CAP pilot from a squadron around here that I like, and even he says some of the people are retards. From what I've heard we just have lousy squadrons around here, because it sounds like they have some good ones up in Colorado. All of the junior members are FSXperts. All of them trot their rank around like it actually means something, and I can't help but laugh.


I was at the Fredericksburg diner once with my friend who was a harrier pilot, and T28 instructor who is currently flying for AA. He thinks they are stupid, too.
 
Plenty of experience with them (former member of two different squadrons), none of it good. In my experience (yours may vary) there were only two kinds of people in CAP - the kids who thought they were all hot stuff (but never got to fly) and the old "use-to-be" senior members who were all concerned about rank and privilege, and kept the airplanes busy and away from the junior members.

That group is way too worried about saluting each other and fawning over royalty than actually flying airplanes. Never again will I have anything to do with them. :no:
 
DavidWhite said:
Just ask any CAP pilot though, and they will tell you how great they are.
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"Any" CAP pilot? I've never done that. Exaggerate much?

I've been in CAP for 20 years, so it's safe to say that I know a lot more CAP pilots than you, but I can't recall any of them ever telling me how great they were.

I've only met 1 CAP pilot from a squadron around here that I like, and even he says some of the people are retards.
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I've met some jerks too, but notice that word "some."
 
airguy said:
Plenty of experience with them (former member of two different squadrons), none of it good. In my experience (yours may vary) there were only two kinds of people in CAP - the kids who thought they were all hot stuff (but never got to fly)
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The FSXperts.


airguy said:
and the old "use-to-be" senior members who were all concerned about rank and privilege, and kept the airplanes busy and away from the junior members.
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Like the lady who snubbed me because I wasnt in the CAP. It appears others have had the same experiences as I.
 
Palmpilot said:
I've been in CAP for 20 years, so it's safe to say that I know a lot more CAP pilots than you, but I can't recall any of them ever telling me how great they were.
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Because you're in the CAP too, and they aren't automatically a better pilot than you because of their organizational affiliation.
 
DavidWhite said:
Because you're in the CAP too, and they aren't automatically a better pilot than you because of their organizational affiliation.
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Sounds like circular reasoning.

I also think you're overlooking the possibility that the CAP pilots who aren't jerks don't mention it very often, so you may not even know that they're CAP pilots. I know that when someone asks about CAP on aviation message boards, I'm often surprised to find out who is a member.
 
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murphey said:
I've asked various people in the squadron and keep getting the NO response. Doesn't matter, I have no intentions of being a CAP pilot. Besides, the CPA course is so much better these days than the CAP course.
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Just to come full-circle on this, I checked this evening and the CPA course qualifies. The CAP version is free. The CPA version is a few hundred bucks.

That's probably why some people misunderstand since Check Airmen say, "Take the free one for members" and sometimes miscommunication happens there. Like with a lot of stuff in CAP, the Devil's in the details.

I can't say with any authority why the two aren't synched anymore, but it's likely the authors were in CAP at the creation of the CPA course and those who teach it nowadays probably aren't. Simple as that.

Not all Wings offer nor require Mountain courses. Most of Rocky Mountain Region does.

It's important enough to CAP that the Mountain training has a database entry under Emergency Services in the National database and the reason it's under ES tree instead of Pilot records is because the database uses only the ES tree for ES Qualifications, which includes a separation of Mission Pilot and Mountain Mission Pilot. Non-Mission Pilots may still require a Mountain check-out in most/all Wings that require them for Missions anyway.

It's also important to note that Mountain check-outs and training are not referenced in CAPR 60-1 the Regulations "Bible" for CAP Pilots, because it's not a National requirement.

Mountain training is a Region or Wing add-on to the Regulations via a Supplement letter, signed by the Wing Commander and/or Region Commander.

Anyone interested in the basic CAP Pilot Regulations is more than welcome to read them at http://capmembers.com under the Forms and Regulations link on the left. They're open to the public.

Anything labeled "R60-1" on that site is the "CAP Flight Management" Regulations and National Letters. It's a good way to see if flying with CAP is for you. If you read 60-1 and don't think you can live by those Regulations, it's definitely not for you.

http://capmembers.com/media/cms/R060_001_132EEB0197465.pdf

A good video on how to pass a CAP Form 5 is at:
http://airspeedonline.blogspot.com/2010/11/airspeed-video-how-to-pass-your-cap.html?m=1

Some of the G1000 training requirements posted here in this thread seemed to me, to be in direct contradiction of the latest version of 60-1, so "things have changed". Whoever posted that, check the Regs... and ask locally "Why?"

Regs do change. Slowly. But they do change.

Someone asked what Forms 1 through 4 were, jokingly. They're on that website. Feel free to look at them. Forms 1 & 2 and their variants, anyway.

The CAP initial Pilot checkride is a "Form 5" and they're required for each type of aircraft to be flown. An Initial Form 5 is required and subsequent annual Form 5's for recurrency.

CAP recently requested and received permission to integrate with the FAASafety.gov website and FAASTeam credits and CAP credits cross over for Wings credit. Your CAP Form 5 will give enough Wings credits to count as your BFR. You must enter your personal CAPID number into a tab on your pilot profile on FAASafety.gov to link the two online systems together.

And now, if you're really bored, CAPR 100-1 and 100-3 and associated Letters are "my world", Communications. (There's currently a Draft replacement 100-1 published as well, due to replace the aging one, published in a Drafts area of that site to avoid confusion.) Comments from Wing level staff in various Wings are already ongoing with National via internal e-mail list. I promise we're fighting for the negative changes to not happen and the positive ones to stay. National's hands are tied by the FCC, the Air Force, and NTIA on some items... but Feedback is happening.

Feel free to read any docs at that website and ask questions. I'll try to answer to the best of my ability.
 
murphey said:
Most of the Senior Members go with the grey slacks & polo shirts. But those are only needed on Official events, e.g. CAP flying missions. Otherwise, whatever you want to show up in to a meeting is usually fine.
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Technically incorrect again. The Devil is in the details again.

This may accurately describe a particular Squadron with a standing Order of the Commander, but the Regs say the minimum uniform is either the Corporate White Aviator shirt, grey slacks, nameplate, epaulets combination... Or the Air Force style blue uniform. Weight and grooming standards must be met to wear the AF uniforms.

The Polo shirt is officially a "Secondary" uniform.

See CAPR 39-1 1-5 a and b for "Basic Uniform" and Table 1-1 for when Uniforms are required to be worn.

Our Squadron is a Senior Squadron and therefore the information you have is specific to our standing Orders, but a Uniform is required whenever working with Cadets.

(By the way, if you meet grooming and weight standards to wear the AF style uniform, most Wings have supplies of them available at no cost. Generally Wings spend more effort and money on this as a benefit for Cadets rather than Seniors because generally Seniors are picky about their clothes and will spend a few bucks to buy new.)

I have attended a number of training or other events outside of our Squadron where the Basic Uniform is the UOD as required by the invitation. In some Wings, and with some Commanders the Polo combination is shunned. In other areas or Squadrons it's all you ever see anyone wearing.

Most Composite and Cadet Squadrons will lean toward the more formal. Senior Squadrons will often lean toward the Polo combination. Almost all Squadrons will prefer uniforms vs civilian attire. Civilian attire can become problematic for members short of cash who see, say... A rich member who shows up in $500 suits.

Uniforms put everyone on a level playing field in the volunteer crowd other than earned grade and specialty insignia or award ribbons. Anyone can look up how a member attained those items in the Uniform manual. Some are easy, others are impressive if you know what you're looking at. A "Save" ribbon always catches my eye, for example.

It means a member was determined to have officially saved someone's life through their service and actions. "Find" ribbons are their lesser cousins in SAR activity.

http://www.mcchord.org/rack_builder/check_sr.html

Here's my rack:

4b94241c-e36a-e1ac.jpg
 
murphey said:
Because I'm AE, I can be CAPT as soon as I submit the paperwork, MAJ if I admit to the PhD.

Rules are different for lawyers, chaplains, physicians and AE.
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That is correct. Some jobs are given "instant-rank". Time in service rules still apply for promotion beyond that rank. An "insta-Capt" or "insta-Maj" will never advance beyond that grade without serving in an official capacity.

There are also some other real-life jobs that garner instant Professional Development goals, example... A GROL will get someone a Technician Communications Rating. I believe some IT certifications can also bump PD requirements if you're enrolled in that Specialty Track.

And those who volunteer for Command roles may also see rank bumps pre-requisite on completing the other PD requirements in a timely fashion, and I've even seen demotions for those who stepped down from Command roles without completing the requisite PD items.

Here's a short doc aimed at new folks in the organization that explains some of this:

http://capmembers.com/media/cms/P007_2590F18CEA904.pdf
 
denverpilot said:
Some of the G1000 training requirements posted here in this thread seemed to me, to be in direct contradiction of the latest version of 60-1, so "things have changed". Whoever posted that, check the Regs... and ask locally "Why?"

Regs do change. Slowly. But they do change.
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It turns out I wasn't up to date on last year's changes to 60-1. They have added language in section 3-6(a)(4)(c) that says the wing DOV "may" approve pilots with previous G1000 experience to go straight to the Form 5. It doesn't sound like it's guaranteed though, and it sounds even more iffy if the pilot doesn't have a Cessna G1000 transition syllabus certificate. (I don't think my club issues those.)
 
By the way, rendering salutes is rarely done in my Squadron between Senior members. It's done generally throughout the organization as a sign of respect for the Uniform being worn and the long term association with the Air Force.

When this is taught incorrectly by a Squadron, you end up with the result of things like the completely embarrassing and inappropriate incidents that have happened where high-grade Senior Members have even demanded salutes from Active Duty military members -- which typically is escalated all the way to National and has resulted in dismissals from volunteer service and tense discussions with the Air Force oversight personnel.

The vast majority of members find the "wannabees" a never-ending annoyance. Often they're out embarassing us somewhere while we're quietly doing the real work, somewhere else. It's not like we want to babysit them or feel like having them around much, either. Commanders are stuck dealing with them, most other Seniors will be somewhere else.

Sometimes they're doing it and no one knows. Get names. Call the local Squadron commander if you feel like helping from the outside.

Commanders can't fix what they don't know about, to some extent.

If its a Cadet being a doofus, ask who their Senior chaperone or Commander are. They're nearby if they're following the Regs. They're kids. They make mistakes.

There are also Cadet age commanders who know the rules and can correct (typically younger, but not always) Cadets (like the one who was just following orders given by their command to keep people off the GA Ramp at the airshow, in David's example) or get new orders from their chain of command. Look for someone near Cadets at an airshow carrying a radio. That's often the person to seek out if there's a problem. CAP at airshows often suffers from the game of "telephone" for our briefings. Remember, the airshow sets the rules and then tries to effectively brief 50-100 seniors and cadets through their chain of command.

Often rules are "dumbed down" before even being given to us and "let pilots into the GA Ramp after the show is over and the airspace released under the terms of our FAA Approved crowd control lines in our FAA Waiver" is going to be dropped in lieu of "keep everyone out of the GA Ramp during the show. If anyone goes in there our FAA Waiver is busted and we could be in trouble." One is more important to communicate than the other, as a hypothetical but common airshow challenge. After three passings of that order through the chain, I guarantee it'll be just "keep people off the GA Ramp".

You should see the stuff that comes out of a game of telephone around the room with a formal simulated radio message in my Advanced Communications User Training classroom. Neither I nor our Colorado Group 1 Communications Officer has ever seen a message make it all the way around the room intact, even after mentioning this to the class.
 
Palmpilot said:
It turns out I wasn't up to date on last year's changes to 60-1. They have added language in section 3-6(a)(4)(c) that says the wing DOV "may" approve pilots with previous G1000 experience to go straight to the Form 5. It doesn't sound like it's guaranteed though, and it sounds even more iffy if the pilot doesn't have a Cessna G1000 transition syllabus certificate. (I don't think my club issues those.)
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Yup. Start pushin'! ;) (For both! Heck, get your club just to issue you one even if they normally don't. Have a CFI write a letter. Paper pushing requires creativity sometimes, as long as you know you truly do meet the requirement.) ;) ;) ;)

That Reg got "more reasonable"... IMHO. Don't forget the CAP G1000 software implementation has some SAR specific pages in the software. Be prepared to show you've spent some time getting to know those pages. (Unfortunately Garmin doesn't provide them in the desktop simulator or even a special version if the simulator with that custom code available inside it. I don't believe CAP is the only user of that code, I believe USCG Aux and other's have it.)

CAP aircraft also have an STC/337 for having two audio panels installed instead of the usual one in G1000 T182T aircraft. Non-techie types are confused by it even if they have tons of G1000 time. It's to split the left-seater from the rest of the crew so they can talk to ATC while the right and back-seater talk to Mission Base on the CAP FM radio. I've seen people configure it so wrong no one could hear anything.

Now to get hearts and minds in your area to follow the intent of the Reg... sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. It's only worth it if it's worth it to you... And your check-Airmen are the place to "pitch" your case.

They might have to kick it upstairs to Wing. Can take a while.

Positive attitude and friendly reminder phone calls usually get stuff like that accomplished over time.

Sometimes it's easier to just take the additional free FITS training. It'll be obvious you know your G1000 "stuff" to the CFI teaching it and you'll build relationships with classmates who'll come to you with questions.

You're going to be flying with them on crews after all. You'll likely be teaching your right-seater some mini G1000 refreshers in flights regularly anyway, as you rotate crews at activities and hit the non-techie right-seaters.

I watched one guy so lost he couldn't figure out how to configure that audio panel and coached him through it from the back seat. The crew is a team. I stopped shooting photos to help him out. During debrief he said he needed more training so I wouldn't have to.
 
denverpilot said:
Sometimes it's easier to just take the additional free FITS training. It'll be obvious you know your G1000 "stuff" to the CFI teaching it and you'll build relationships with classmates who'll come to you with questions.
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Actually, I haven't taken any G1000 training yet, in or out of CAP, other than the CAP ground school. I've just been trying to figure out what the best way to do it is. I think I'm going to go ahead and try to schedule the training flights with CAP after I finish some repair work in my bathroom that has me semi tied up.
 
gprellwitz said:
Yes, Nate, I'm sure you have a nice rack! :rofl:

BTW, what's this AE that murphey is writing about? Advanced Education?
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One of the three main missions of CAP:

Aerospace Education

The other two are ...

Emergency Services

And...

Cadet Programs

AE is a tough job when done right. It's meant to be a Community outreach s much or more than to members. Members are requested to take an open book Aerospace History exam called the Yeager Award (most awards are named after famous military aviators or historical CAP commanders).

In Cadet tracks, Yeager is required for their advancement and is arguably more important in those Squadrons.

There's also a large amount of free materials available to all grades of schoolkids via the "AEX" program, with aerospace activities designed for specific grades that any educator can request, and most Squadrons will respond to requests to send special speakers to talk in classrooms if asked.

Murphy is an Assistant AE Officer under a very long-time AE Officer who's worked on a lot of things at local and National levels but is getting older. Our Senior AE presentations at our Squadrok sometimes feel like they're a mix of re-hashed 80s stories over and over and attempts to cajole adult volunteers into taking the hour at a computer at home to plow through the Yeager. There's little motivation to do so without a couple of things... a dynamic AE person who is enthusiastic enough about AE that they could motivate a slug, and modern information and topics. Murphy can probably fix all that, but her "boss" might be a minor challenge. I'd say our most interesting AE activity this year was set up by our highly motivated Member of the Year for 2011, who not only got Air Force altitude chamber rides for members who jumped on the opportunity, but who also uncovered a long-past simmering complaint the Air Force had where our Wing had signed up people in the past and they had poor turn-out at this weekday activity, years ago, wasting the time and talents of qualified AF personnel.

He made sure every slot was full and had Alternates lined up so the CAP Wing wouldn't be wasting the AF training crew's time.

Getting a free all-day flight physiology course by AF personnel and an Altitude Chamber ride isn't something the Wing should have ever taken lightly. This time, we didn't. Now THAT is a Senior AE activity to be proud of.

Murphy's got a pretty high bar to hit to beat that one. ;) Due to an e-mail SNAFU, I got dumped from the roster this go-around, so I hope the overly busy member who set it up can continue it or hand it off to someone to keep it alive.

AE seems like the perfect place to "house" that project -- to me anyway -- as long as the AE coordinator stays ultra-positive with the AF brass and very to-the-point. We're way down their priorities list for the chamber, obviously. Wasting their time with trivia other than, "We have a full crew ready to go who will show up and pay attention to your staff, guaranteed..." is likely unwise. ;)
 
By the way, sorry for all the individual posts. Just answering from Tapatalk (no "multi-quote" feature) while doing a late-night maintenance window.

(The DBA wanted to patch his servers. I was just on the conf call the shut mine down that talk to the DB and bring them back up and test as he rolled thru all his servers. Multitasking to answer questions with the iPhone was pretty easy since mostly I was just waiting.)
 
DavidWhite said:
Like I said, it sounds like there are good squadrons in other parts of the country, just not here.
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Thanks for this clarification David. In your previous posts, it sounded as if you were painting the CAP with a broad brush. It doesn't stand to reason that ALL CAP people or people of ANY group would be the same.
 
Thanks Nate for spilling out your thoughts.....:yesnod::yesnod:

Those multiple posts pretty much explain how the CAP is a disfunctional organization with layers of management that clearly don't exchange feedback to correct obvious problems. It seems the complete structure and culture in CAP is destined to create issues so someone somewhere has to fill out a form to keep busy, to hell with common sense.

You have explained the reasons for most of the hiccups, apologized for poor behavior, admitting the cadet program is mostly a (dog and pony ) show that is completely out of control and honest enough to post that there were instances where CAP members tried to pull rank on active military.....

Have you ever thought of forwarding these comments you defined here to national so they can get a pulse on reality. Better yet just send the link to this thread so they can see that all the people who have added their comments about having a bad experience with the CAP outnumber the good experiences by 2-1 or more... :dunno::dunno::idea:

With all that said I am sure there are pockets of CAP groups around the country which are a fine examples of the concept and I would suggest anyone to explore those to see if the fit is good... I strongly warn those to keep their eyes WIDE open to view the platform in its entirety to make sure they are not walking into a nightmare..

I commend you and Palmpilot and a couple of others who are strong enough to defend the idiotic and totally unproductive atmosphere that permeates the CAP culture and I really hope some constructive dialog to the top brass at CAP will actually do some good.... Time will tell, but my money is on the perpetuation of the status quo...... After all, that is how a government operation operates.:yesnod::(:(:(:mad:.
 
N801BH said:
I commend you and Palmpilot and a couple of others who are strong enough to defend the idiotic and totally unproductive atmosphere that permeates the CAP culture...
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:confused:

I'm just telling the truth as I see it. I haven't noticed that any particular strength is required to post my opinion on a message board.

I think anyone who has been in CAP for a while can give you a list of complaints about bureacratic BS, loose cannons, etc. I doubt that makes the organization worthless. "Your mileage may vary."
 
Palmpilot said:
:confused:

I'm just telling the truth as I see it. I haven't noticed that any particular strength is required to post my opinion on a message board.

I think anyone who has been in CAP for a while can give you a list of complaints about bureacratic BS, loose cannons, etc. I doubt that makes the organization worthless. "Your mileage may vary."
Click to expand...

"Worthless" is your word, not mine....
 
Ben how was the cadet program described as a dog and pony show? I would beg to differ on that opinion. Again, 10 squadrons will have 50 opinions, but the cadets advance their rank by studying materials provided by CAP and practical learning as well. And it is not completely useless to the cadet beyond gaining rank. For example, the Billy Mitchell Award is good for an advance in pay grade should the cadet later join the military.
My participation in CAP helped with my inclusion in Who's who among high school students. Aside from that, it expanded my curiosity in electronics, particularly radios, which later in life helped me act as a minor resource to my fire department when we revamped our communications system. Some of the emergency services training has served me quite well involving missing persons searches with the fire department as well.
On a personal note, I am much happier to see a bunch of cocky teens wearing camo, learning customs and courtesies, and soaking up tons of good knowledge than seeing similarly aged kids moping along with no direction at all causing trouble.
The constant among seniors and cadets alike is the bureucratic nonesense that needs to change for the sake of the entire organization.
 
I believe David spoke of his encounter with Cadets,,, I, too have had some really bizarre and uncalled for interactions with Cadets... One for example... I was at an airshow in Idaho a couple of years ago... My plane and I were part of the show to fill in the dead time between aero acts... As I went to get into my plane to fly the demo routine ,was stopped by three 12 year old kids wearing their spiffy uniforms, equipted with walkie talkie's and was rudely told to get back behind the crowd line... At about that time the airshow announcer was calling my name and broadcasting the details of what I was going to perform... I told those cadets I needed to get my plane started and taxi to the active.... They actually confronted me and loudly insisted I GET BACK behind the line.... With that I proceeded to walk to the announcer stand with them following me screaming that they needed security.... Just as I walked up to the stand their adult supervisor confronted me and demanded I listen to the kids and get back behind the line... :mad::mad: About this time the airboss walks up and says to the adult superviser WTF over? He told them the schedule was now screwed up and for all of them to "GET OFF HIS RAMP". Believe it or not the adult actually started to argue with the airboss claiming they had total control of the show.... I started to laugh so hard I almost ****ed in my pants...

Long story made shorter... I asked and was granted an early release between the next aero act so I depart and head home as he knew I was about to make the CAP Cadets life living hell if I was to stick around. The boss called later that day to defuse the whole fiasco and asked if I would come back on Sunday for another try... to which I answered "NO F#cking" way I would with those pint sized gestapo clones running the ramp... He and I laughed it off.. The next years airshow went off perfectly WITHOUT Cadets..

To answer your question, just google CAP cadets and see what comes up. There have been numerous posters here on POA who have had troublesome run ins with Cadets.. It is not just me, just like in the beginning of this thread I spoke out against the CAP and what do you know, several others chimed in with having had the exact same BS..

I too, think it would be better for youngsters to get some kind of structured training because as you pointed out this upcoming generation is 'scary at best'...The Cadet program can run in a effective way and direct young kids in the proper direction.. Just give kids a walkie talkie, a uniform and little to no supervision and you are asking for it... The problem is it takes ADULT supervision to make it work and apparently that is the weak link..... IMHO/
 
N801BH said:
I believe David spoke of his encounter with Cadets,,, I, too have had some really bizarre and uncalled for interactions with Cadets... One for example... I was at an airshow in Idaho a couple of years ago... My plane and I were part of the show to fill in the dead time between aero acts... As I went to get into my plane to fly the demo routine ,was stopped by three 12 year old kids wearing their spiffy uniforms, equipted with walkie talkie's and was rudely told to get back behind the crowd line... At about that time the airshow announcer was calling my name and broadcasting the details of what I was going to perform... I told those cadets I needed to get my plane started and taxi to the active.... They actually confronted me and loudly insisted I GET BACK behind the line.... With that I proceeded to walk to the announcer stand with them following me screaming that they needed security.... Just as I walked up to the stand their adult supervisor confronted me and demanded I listen to the kids and get back behind the line... :mad::mad: About this time the airboss walks up and says to the adult superviser WTF over? He told them the schedule was now screwed up and for all of them to "GET OFF HIS RAMP". Believe it or not the adult actually started to argue with the airboss claiming they had total control of the show.... I started to laugh so hard I almost ****ed in my pants...

Long story made shorter... I asked and was granted an early release between the next aero act so I depart and head home as he knew I was about to make the CAP Cadets life living hell if I was to stick around. The boss called later that day to defuse the whole fiasco and asked if I would come back on Sunday for another try... to which I answered "NO F#cking" way I would with those pint sized gestapo clones running the ramp... He and I laughed it off.. The next years airshow went off perfectly WITHOUT Cadets..

To answer your question, just google CAP cadets and see what comes up. There have been numerous posters here on POA who have had troublesome run ins with Cadets.. It is not just me, just like in the beginning of this thread I spoke out against the CAP and what do you know, several others chimed in with having had the exact same BS..

I too, think it would be better for youngsters to get some kind of structured training because as you pointed out this upcoming generation is 'scary at best'...The Cadet program can run in a effective way and direct young kids in the proper direction.. Just give kids a walkie talkie, a uniform and little to no supervision and you are asking for it... The problem is it takes ADULT supervision to make it work and apparently that is the weak link..... IMHO/
Click to expand...
Roger roger, I misunderstood what you meant. There was a need for better supervision of cadets when I was part of it, and go figure that does not seem to have changed.
 
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