What do YOU consider minimum in an IFR panel?

ronnieh said:
John, I think what many are trying to diplomatically tell you there is no cheap way to do it correctly. IMO the KNS 80 is not worth the installation cost if it was given to you. It was nice stuff in the early 80's. Its time has passed. But, since you are not going to do any serious IMC anyway in a 140 I think what ever is the cheapest to get your plane where you can do your training might be your best bet. All of us are good at spending another's money. For $45K I even have some suggestions:D Good luck!
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Yes, to do what I would want to do, I would put in a new t configuration panel and a 430 and get rid of the MX-11 and NAV 11. That would run about $16K. I don't really have $16K to drop on a panel right now and it really doesn't make sense, because I will get little to none of it back, when I go to sell the plane (I have other reasons for wanting to trade up). I was looking at whatever I spend as an investment in my instrument training and not an investment in the plane. If the "door stop" gets me the tools I need, then it might be worth it.
 
John221us said:
Yes, to do what I would want to do, I would put in a new t configuration panel and a 430 and get rid of the MX-11 and NAV 11. That would run about $16K. I don't really have $16K to drop on a panel right now and it really doesn't make sense, because I will get little to none of it back, when I go to sell the plane (I have other reasons for wanting to trade up). I was looking at whatever I spend as an investment in my instrument training and not an investment in the plane. If the "door stop" gets me the tools I need, then it might be worth it.
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Nope, won't be worth it. Save your money for your upgrade plane and do your IR training with the equipment you will do your IR flying. Until then there's no sense to spend the 25%+ of the value of the plane that will be completely unrecoverable. You think that that modern gear is a lousy investment wait till you see the return on installing used 3 generation old equipment. If you aren't going to install a 430 because it's not worth the money, then the same goes for anything in that plane. At sale, the loss difference between the 430 installed and the KNS 80 installed will be about the same.
 
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With my 89B/KY197 upgrade I looked at it as a "Probably make it sell quicker" as opposed to "I know I'll get an extra 2K out if it", I had the money in my pocket and a CFII ready to go, that's why elected to go for it instead of saving for another 6 months to a year and installing a 430 that I'd likely lose as much or more on (Instant karma). When I fly my IR checkride with that 89B, it doesn't owe me anything after that. I did toy with renting the FBOs 172RG but figured it'd be a wash financially and all it was equipped with was a GX60.
 
Henning said:
:confused: How is the Nav w/GS Backup? It's the only box that gets you to the ground low isn't it?
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You're correct, I mispoke. I meant backup in the context of enroute navigation. It is indeed essential in my minimalist panel layout to finish off the flight in sub-500ft ceiling wx days. :)
 
hindsight2020 said:
You're correct, I mispoke. I meant backup in the context of enroute navigation. It is indeed essential in my minimalist panel layout to finish off the flight in sub-500ft ceiling wx days. :)
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Never underestimate the value of vertical guidance on an approach. That's what the 430w buys you and is the cheapest available way to get it outside an ILS. While lots of GPS approaches with vertical guidance come online, very very very few ILSs are being added. Coming down a set of centered needles is a lot nicer than counting and stepping your way down a VOR, Localizer or NDB.

Of course putting the symbol on the threshold of the runway displayed on the screen and keeping it there with the controls is even nicer...:D
 
John, I totally understand as does many here. It is very difficult to decide on what to do. I tend to lean toward what Henning is saying but it is not black and white. You are the one that has to write the check therefore you get to make the decision. Good luck in whatever you decide.
 
hindsight2020 said:
You're correct, I mispoke. I meant backup in the context of enroute navigation. It is indeed essential in my minimalist panel layout to finish off the flight in sub-500ft ceiling wx days. :)
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When Garmin releases the 300 series to mainstream GA, then finally we will have after decades of waiting for it, a worthy "minimalist" IFR panel when combined with a 750. Those 2 units alone pack one hell of a situational awareness punch on two nice sized screens.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I don't need anything for IFR.

Oh wait, I need the astray in the door panel, that's all I need.

The ashtray, and maybe this cup holder in the console, that's all I need.

The ashtray, the cup holder, and that hula girl on the glare shield, that's all I really, really, need.

I don't need one other thing, the astray, the cup holder, the hula girl, and well the autopilot.

That's it, not one other thing, not one, ever.

(movie joke for those that spend their evenings perusing the FAR/AIM)
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Fearless Tower said:
You forgot the thermos!
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I always thought the Optigrab looked like something pilots would buy... ;)

Question for the avionics geeks... I overheard a conversation that indicated that the 89B and similar vintage GPS units are having a hard time having enough flash memory space to handle the "uptick" in number of named GPS waypoints in the airspace... true? Have they split the database into East/West yet, etc?
 
John221us said:
Well, I went through this excercise about a year ago and ended up thinking I would need to rework my shotgun panel and install a 430
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If you're serious about the IR, that really is where you want to go, especially having the panel completely redone in a modern "standard-T" formation for the flight instruments and rational location of the radios and CDI's. You can certainly go the low-cost route discussed above with an 89B or 300XL or the like, but if you don't reorganize the panel, it will make instrument flying agonizing. The idea of trying to fly a CDI over in the far right corner makes my head hurt, and I've watched folks try to do that while giving them IR training. They can usually get it eventually, but it is a far more difficult task.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you're serious about the IR, that really is where you want to go, especially having the panel completely redone in a modern "standard-T" formation for the flight instruments and rational location of the radios and CDI's. You can certainly go the low-cost route discussed above with an 89B or 300XL or the like, but if you don't reorganize the panel, it will make instrument flying agonizing. The idea of trying to fly a CDI over in the far right corner makes my head hurt, and I've watched folks try to do that while giving them IR training. They can usually get it eventually, but it is a far more difficult task.
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I'd argue a "Standard-T" isn't modern anymore.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you're serious about the IR, that really is where you want to go, especially having the panel completely redone in a modern "standard-T" formation for the flight instruments and rational location of the radios and CDI's. You can certainly go the low-cost route discussed above with an 89B or 300XL or the like, but if you don't reorganize the panel, it will make instrument flying agonizing. The idea of trying to fly a CDI over in the far right corner makes my head hurt, and I've watched folks try to do that while giving them IR training. They can usually get it eventually, but it is a far more difficult task.
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Thanks Ron,
There isn't a lot (practically speaking) that I can do about the shotgun panel, but one of my main motivators for the KNS-80, was it would put the indicator with GS and LOC right in front of me and the far right VOR would be my secondary VOR.
 
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Henning said:
Of course, the real reason is they're lazy.
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That depends on what I'm flying. One night the AP in a Lear **** the pot on departure and the Captain didn't want to work his ass off so we climbed out of RVSM airspace and I hand flew it from Arkansas to NJ. That wore me out. I also hand flown Ted's Aztec one stormy night, a much more stable airplane, from PA to Oklahoma with no problem. That flight was about 75% IMC
 
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John221us said:
There isn't a lot (practically speaking) that I can do about the shotgun panel,
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Actually, there is. The shop can take the panel apart and put it back together in the more modern (happy, Bart?) standard-T arrangement -- I've seen older Cessnas and Pipers thus modified. Not the cheapest route, but it will make instrument flying a whole lot easier.

but that was one of my main motivators for the KNS-80, is then the indicator with GS and LOC would be right in front of me and the far right VOR would be my secondary VOR.
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Anything that puts the ILS indicator in your primary field of view is better than anything that doesn't. But you do have options.
 
Ron Levy said:
Actually, there is. The shop can take the panel apart and put it back together in the more modern (happy, Bart?) standard-T arrangement -- I've seen older Cessnas and Pipers thus modified. Not the cheapest route, but it will make instrument flying a whole lot easier.
QUOTE]

Yes, there is a $16,000 fix to this. If it is really a bad idea to do my training on a shotgun panel, then I will need to wait until I can afford a different airplane. I had read in a few places, that while training on a shotgun panel is not ideal, it can be done and the transition to a standard T is not that bad. There is a chance my next plane will be glass, which will be completely different, anyways. My thought was that getting my IR would make me a safer pilot, which is really my goal.
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John221us said:
Ron Levy said:
Actually, there is. The shop can take the panel apart and put it back together in the more modern (happy, Bart?) standard-T arrangement -- I've seen older Cessnas and Pipers thus modified. Not the cheapest route, but it will make instrument flying a whole lot easier.
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Yes, there is a $16,000 fix to this.
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:hairraise: Does that include the Garmin 430W?

If it is really a bad idea to do my training on a shotgun panel, then I will need to wait until I can afford a different airplane. I had read in a few places, that while training on a shotgun panel is not ideal, it can be done and the transition to a standard T is not that bad.
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That's true -- it can be done, and the transition is actually pretty easy. It's just harder to do, and may take a bit more time and concentration.

There is a chance my next plane will be glass, which will be completely different, anyways.
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Well, not completely different, but definitely different.

My thought was that getting my IR would make me a safer pilot, which is really my goal.
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Good thinking.
 
I've noticed zero "difference" with my shotgun blast panel and flying a "more" modern Standard-T. I admittedly am a fairly inexperienced pilot and have about 150 hours in each. If there is a difference, I'm not aware of it, and I certainly don't see $16,000 worth of difference. My only motivation would be cosmetic to get that "more modern" look :)

IIRC the panel in the Cherokee is considered a structural part of the airframe (or something like that) and it's a fairly large undertaking to swap one out, though I have seen it done.
 
bartmc said:
I've noticed zero "difference" with my shotgun blast panel and flying a "more" modern Standard-T. I admittedly am a fairly inexperienced pilot and have about 150 hours in each. If there is a difference, I'm not aware of it, and I certainly don't see $16,000 worth of difference. My only motivation would be cosmetic to get that "more modern" look :)
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I would say that if it's your airplane and that's all you are flying then it's normal to you. I flew an airplane with a shotgun panel for years, even IFR at times, and it didn't seem strange. The airplane did have an HSI, though, which I really like. So thinking back on this airplane I would fly IFR with two navcoms, one with a GS, an ADF, and an HSI. The airplane did not have an autopilot or any kind of GPS. That said I would not want to do a lot of IFR like that, only a limited amount.
 
Probably this (took it this morning) but I just started IFR training, barely know how to do anything. But this is our best club plane, all 4 are IFR, all 4 have GPS's but this is the only one with a 430W and an autopilot. It's the only one I think I feel comfortable in hard IMC trying to do all the things you have to do at once. Maybe my mind will change as I progress in my training but this is the only plane I would actually GO anywhere in REAL IMC.

ArcherPanel-1.jpg
 
eMKay said:
...I just started IFR training, barely know how to do anything. ... It's the only one I think I feel comfortable in hard IMC trying to do all the things you have to do at once. Maybe my mind will change as I progress in my training...
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I hope it does, because on your IR practical test, you will have demonstrate the ability to "do all the things you have to do at once" without the autopilot, and you don't want to feel any more uncomfortable than necessary on that test. But don't worry -- if you have a good instructor, that will come in due course.
 
Absolute minimum would be a dual nav/comm with DME (I've flown /U, but I prefer the added S.A. that atleast a good DME would provide). Preferred would be dual Nav/comm with a Garmin 430/530W. A good autopilot also works wonders for SP-IFR, but I don't consider it a minimum requirement for your typical GA aircraft unless I did a great deal of hard IFR flying.
 
eMKay said:
Probably this (took it this morning) but I just started IFR training, barely know how to do anything. But this is our best club plane, all 4 are IFR, all 4 have GPS's but this is the only one with a 430W and an autopilot. It's the only one I think I feel comfortable in hard IMC trying to do all the things you have to do at once. Maybe my mind will change as I progress in my training but this is the only plane I would actually GO anywhere in REAL IMC.
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That's a nice layout, and I'd be very happy to fly with that sort of equipment all day long. I ferried a similarly-equipped Mooney from MD to CO (with a stop at Jay's old hotel in the middle) and the GPS coupled to the STEC made for very comfortable flying.
 
Like most things in life, more is better but it boils down to money. I had the standard "T" layout in an earlier aircraft and have more of a "shotgun" layout now. Both work, but it takes some getting used to. Never have flown glass (not enought $$).
 
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