Advice, please -- Whom Shall We Sue? (Non-Av)

[Jay Honeck]

I think there is confusion about the difference between a confirmed reservation and a guaranteed reservation. A confirmed reservation is usually only held until 6pm or so. A guaranteed reservation is supposed to be just that--guaranteed. A hotel that is giving away guaranteed reservations to other customers is not only acting unethically and in bad faith but it has also breached its contract.

I would expect a person that owns a hotel to know the difference, but have seen no indication of that because I haven't seen either of those two "magic words" mentioned.

What would you consider to be a "confirmed" reservation, and how should it differ from "guaranteed"?

The difference between those two "types" exists only in the warped world of chain motels. In our world, a reservation is exactly what the word means -- it's a room that is reserved only for you, and we will hold it for you regardless of your arrival time.

 

[Palmpilot]

My point exactly -- and it's why we do things differently.

If you've never been walked by a chain, you've probably been lucky enough to not arrive late on a night when there is a big event in town.

If this is a regular practice, I'm surprised the chains haven't been hit with class action lawsuits yet.

And if Expedia is stiffing hotels regularly, maybe there's a class action suit possible there too?

 

[Jay Honeck]

Ironically enough, I just had two guys from Romania (WTF?) arrive at the hotel. We're 100% full, as we are every Saturday night, and they claimed to have a reservation here -- made through Expedia!

We, of course, had no such reservation.

I helped them to find a hotel room in town -- amazingly, it only took three phone calls -- and gave them the link to the Facebook page "I Hate Expedia!"...

 

[Jay Honeck]

If this is a regular practice, I'm surprised the chains haven't been hit with class action lawsuits yet.

And if Expedia is stiffing hotels regularly, maybe there's a class action suit possible there too?

Do a Google search on "Expedia Scam", and be astounded at what comes up. I am not alone in my frustration with this company.

As for what chain hotels do, it's astounding, I agree. What's even more sickening is the way some hotel owners and managers laugh about the practice at lodging association meetings.

We had one hotel manager in Iowa City who proudly called herself "The Over-booking Queen". She would go as high as 20% over, on Hawkeye football weekends. (Her property was closest to Kinnick Stadium.)

I thought Mary was going to strangle her.

 

[Doggtyred]

Perhaps, Jay, you need to think about prepaid reservations. Or at least prepaid from Expedia. More than one hotel I've been to offers a much lower rate for prepaid/non-refundable ressies.

And if it's a fraudulent reservation, it's still going to get charged back.

 

[jesse]

Any company who's idea of good operating practices is letting their Windows IIS web-server machines just crash until more than half a cabinet full of them (usually 80%) isn't running, then reboot the entire cabinet, probably has no business taking people's personal and credit card data. (Don't ask me how I know this.)

You do know how bad, bad, bad such a thing is, right?

https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/merchants/index.php

I dunno how many rules an Expedia can break by virtue of being mind boggily big, but I know something about that.

Oh definitely. I'm actually sitting here doing PCI audit/mitigation work right now, in fact.

You (as I) probably also know there's quite a bit of goofy stuff in PCI that's totally worthless too, on top of the good stuff. I get a huge kick out of the god-awful scanning tools that scream and holler about things being vulnerable that aren't...

Someone could make a fortune making a smarter scan tool. Problem is, they'd need a fortune to pay the coders to build it.

There is nothing I'm aware of in the PCI DSS that requires you to immedately repair a server if it drops offline. In some large clusters it's common practice to just let them be broken and fix them in batches when enough are down to justify it. If the software itself is written to expect that sort of environment, then it's all good.

Now if you're able to just let large portions of your infrastructure drop offline and operate fine in that condition for extended periods of time you've probably spent way more money then you needed to.

All of that said it's quite likely they've designed their systems to really limit the scope of PCI, I doubt all their web front-ends are in scope. If they once again spent way too much money.

 

[denverpilot]

Pretty sure I'm typing my credit card into a web form hosted on their front-ends, but if they're redirecting to another box at the submit URL, maybe they're out of scope.

Still **** poor software though... These servers weren't dropping due to hardware problems.

Anyway... Off topic I know.

I've been "walked" for the people here who don't believe it. Twice. Booking was through the chain's own website.

Booking through a business travel agent? Never had a problem. Check in at 2AM after an emergency trip to a customer site with repair parts? Room still there. If they'd ever have "walked" me then, they knew they'd have a couple of very large companies on their asses.

One time I was walked, the front desk person blamed it on "the computer". Easy out.

The other time they just flatly said they'd overbooked but did assist with a hotel change and had pre-negotiated a reduced rate at what was probably a sister hotel. (That was in Vegas.) They tried to balk at paying cab fare to the other hotel when their van was pre-occupied. I insisted firmly and politely. The manager ended up forking over cash from the drawer.

And then there was the flea-bag place the FAA folks wanted to stay at near JFK because they were on per-diem (I wasn't) and pocketing the difference... Luckily we were up all night working on the gear and I had something like a 1 PM flight out the next day. I spent a whopping three hours napping is all. What a dump. Complete with the movie-cliche' empty swimming pool.

And the former Holiday Inn in Rochelle Park, NJ that the AT&T engineer assured us was "nice" and also only a couple blocks from the Central Office we were working at... Where we played "name that stain" between co-workers and the carpeting in the halls, rooms, lobby... Where ironically I was up all night talking to the Cisco TAC in Australia anyway most nights. What a cluster that job was.

The glamorous life of a traveling telecom field engineer.

Best hotel stay ever? Vacation... Moana Surfrider, Waikiki Beach. Staff, facilities, beds, bedding, view, lounge chairs on the back veranda overlooking their virtually private section of beachfront... All excellent. Cocktails were overpriced but that's always an easy problem to fix. Brunch next door at Duke's in the morning was great too, get a beachside table.

 

[N801BH]

I think there is confusion about the difference between a confirmed reservation and a guaranteed reservation. A confirmed reservation is usually only held until 6pm or so. A guaranteed reservation is supposed to be just that--guaranteed. A hotel that is giving away guaranteed reservations to other customers is not only acting unethically and in bad faith but it has also breached its contract.

I would expect a person that owns a hotel to know the difference, but have seen no indication of that because I haven't seen either of those two "magic words" mentioned.

Not any confusion in my mind.......

If I call up the 'flea bag' hotel and say " Hi. I am dsmpilot and I need a room, just hold it for me till I get there and don't give a credit card number then I would expect the room will NOT be held if they get busy.


If I call up the 'flea bag' hotel and reserve a room and they ask and I give a credit card number and they then sell that room to another person then there is a good chance someone is going to jail that night. YMMV.

 

[Rndmtrvlr]

Not any confusion in my mind.......

If I call up the 'flea bag' hotel and say " Hi. I am dsmpilot and I need a room, just hold it for me till I get there and don't give a credit card number then I would expect the room will NOT be held if they get busy.


If I call up the 'flea bag' hotel and reserve a room and they ask and I give a credit card number and they then sell that room to another person then there is a good chance someone is going to jail that night. YMMV.

Count me as having been "walked," too. More than once. And there's not a darn thing you can do about it. All the screaming and yelling and foot stomping in the lobby ... All the emails and phone calls to corporate headquarters threatening to never use thar chain again ... Just gets you a recitation of "the policy."

 

[silver-eagle]

Overbooking is not a practice limited to hotels and motels. Airlines are experts. Maybe less so now than before.
The other good reason for not having your room sold out from underneath you is being a regular customer of theirs. Comfort Inn in Salisbury, MD was a regular annual stop for many years. Never had them sell off our room even on "race" weekend or "baseball" weekend.
Worst hotel reservation ever made was out by Pawtuxet, MD. We had them for 6 weeks. Showing up around 8PM, we drove past the place a couple of times until some very nice gas station attendant pointed it out. Seems they were in the middle of changing their name (a bedsheet over the old sign), refurbing the place, and NOT ready to honor reservations from the past major chain. Claiming they canceled the reservation, they still found "the last room" available and discounted it significantly. The only other guests they had we suspect were the guys doing the refurb. Since it was 5 minutes from Pax River Aviation Museum where our 8AM reservation for a simulator ride waited for us, and 8PM in a strange town, we took it.

 

[Everskyward]

If you've never been walked by a chain, you've probably been lucky enough to not arrive late on a night when there is a big event in town.

We almost always use chains and I've never been walked. The last time we were somewhere when there was a big event in town the hotel we normally use said they were booked at the time of the first phone call so we went to another one in a town about a half hour away.

 

[TMetzinger]

We sometimes check in to hotels at weird hours of the night too and I can't remember having a guaranteed reservation and no room available unless there was some kind of screw-up (reservations made for the wrong night). What does happen on occasion is that we will cancel past that deadline and the rooms will get charged even though we are not occupying them.

I've been "walked" many times, but in all cases the hotel that was full found me another room and paid for it themselves.

 

[ScottM]

If you've never been walked by a chain, you've probably been lucky enough to not arrive late on a night when there is a big event in town.

I have been walked three times, all them by small independent operators. At large chains I always guarantee my reservation with a credit card and never had a problem, even when checking in around midnight. For vacation travel I prefer to use B&Bs. They don't overbook like the independents seem to do. I think what your fellow hoteliers are doing is kind of sucky, seems you do to. Sadly their lack of customer care affects your business.

 

[wsuffa]

Well, you've been warned. You're welcome.

Friends don't let friends stay at chain hotels...

I pretty much have to stay at certain chain hotels when traveling for work. I am fortunate enough to have "elite" status with the chains, so not having a room is a very rare event (in fact, if I book at least 48 hours out, one chain guarantees me a room at the desired hotel @ rack rate). If the hotel fails to deliver with the room that meets my preferences, they not only cover my room at another nearby hotel, but they pay me $200 cash on the spot.

And if it's a fraudulent reservation, it's still going to get charged back.

Agree. But if the reservation is made a month or more in advance then the chargeback ought to occur before the date of stay.

 

[SCCutler]

Been "walked" a half dozen times or so.

Biggest irritant was when I was booked at the hotel where the Board meeting of an organization, of which I am a Board member, walked me. They had a room for me at a very nice hotel (nicer, perhaps, than the one into which I was booked), but it meant cab rides and logistical irritation. Very disappointing.

 

[Palmpilot]

Not any confusion in my mind.......

If I call up the 'flea bag' hotel and say " Hi. I am dsmpilot and I need a room, just hold it for me till I get there and don't give a credit card number then I would expect the room will NOT be held if they get busy.


If I call up the 'flea bag' hotel and reserve a room and they ask and I give a credit card number and they then sell that room to another person then there is a good chance someone is going to jail that night. YMMV.

Do you really think the local police are going to arrest a local hotel operator for fraud (or whatever) on the say so of an out of towner?

 

[N801BH]

Do you really think the local police are going to arrest a local hotel operator for fraud (or whatever) on the say so of an out of towner?

Stranger things have happened.

 

[DaleB]

Do you really think the local police are going to arrest a local hotel operator for fraud (or whatever) on the say so of an out of towner?

No, but they will almost certainly arrest the out of towner when he chokes the life out of the hotel desk clerk.

 

[Everskyward]

I think what your fellow hoteliers are doing is kind of sucky, seems you do to. Sadly their lack of customer care affects your business.

Agree with this. Unfortunately it's hard to tell the good operators from the bad ones without having stayed there.

In thinking about it, perhaps one of the reasons we have better luck is that we usually have the FBO make the reservations for us unless it is a place we go frequently. This is an advantage because we often get the cheaper FBO rate, plus if a pilot comes back with a bad review they will be reluctant to send someone there again.

 

[Anthony]

In thinking about it, perhaps one of the reasons we have better luck is that we usually have the FBO make the reservations for us unless it is a place we go frequently. This is an advantage because we often get the cheaper FBO rate, plus if a pilot comes back with a bad review they will be reluctant to send someone there again.

That is what I do. I find I get better rates, better transportation, and better service using the FBO.

 

[Palmpilot]

No, but they will almost certainly arrest the out of towner when he chokes the life out of the hotel desk clerk.

Hmmm...Not sure why, but something tells me that's not an effective strategy for dealing with the problem!

 

[Palmpilot]

In thinking about it, perhaps one of the reasons we have better luck is that we usually have the FBO make the reservations for us unless it is a place we go frequently. This is an advantage because we often get the cheaper FBO rate, plus if a pilot comes back with a bad review they will be reluctant to send someone there again.

That sounds like a great idea!

 

[murphey]

Nope, I refuse to run a business that way. In fact, were it up to me, that whole "if you're not there by 6 PM, you are screwed" way of doing business would be illegal.

We treat your reservation as the CONTRACT it is. I will hold it for you all night, whether someone walks in with $500, or not. It's the only honorable way to do this business, and I despise the hoteliers that routinely screw their guests.

That's what makes this situation so difficult. We had NO input with the guest, and got screwed for it.

One option for you to continue with Expedia is to contact the customer to confirm they made the reservation. After a phone call to them (or email if provided) then a fax to confirm. Yes, this is labor intensive, but is it cheaper than going thru this aggravation over and over?

 

[murphey]

That has never happened to me no matter how late I've checked in. Just checked into a hotel in San Jose California at 9:00 at night, and my room was waiting for me.

I tend to stick with Choice Hotel chain. Almost all of them have the "we'll keep your reservation until xxx" where xxx is this insanely late hour. Even in the surrounding areas of Airventure, never a problem.

 

[pilot_dude]

The practice of over-booking won't hurt you, most of the time, because large hotels rarely sell out. You won't notice anything amiss, because they CAN'T overbook unless they're sold out.

Special event weekends (like college football in Iowa, or every summer weekend here on the island) are different. Every available hotel room will be booked for 100 miles, which means that over-booking -- and the resulting "walking" of those who show up late -- will present a real hardship for many.

Imagine you've brought your family here from San Antonio. You've got a reservation -- guaranteed with your credit card -- at the Holiday Inn Express. You got off work late, and it's a 2+ hour drive. You don't get to the island until after 9 PM, and then you've got to sit in the ferry line.

You roll into the Holiday Inn Express at 10:30 PM. The odds of them honoring your "guaranteed" reservation are ZERO. They will have sold your room to a walk-in hours ago.

They are scoundrels, and I will not run a business that way.

Your island is unique in conducting biz in the fashion. I'm in hotels EVERY week and check-in from 16:00-23:00 and have NEVER not had my ressie honored.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I have been walked three times, all them by small independent operators. At large chains I always guarantee my reservation with a credit card and never had a problem, even when checking in around midnight. For vacation travel I prefer to use B&Bs. They don't overbook like the independents seem to do. I think what your fellow hoteliers are doing is kind of sucky, seems you do to. Sadly their lack of customer care affects your business.

It's exceedingly rare for independent hoteliers to overbook, in my experience.

For chains, it's policy. Their managers have no more choice in doing it than they do in what crappy frozen muffins they must serve you for "breakfast".

 

[Jay Honeck]

I pretty much have to stay at certain chain hotels when traveling for work. I am fortunate enough to have "elite" status with the chains, so not having a room is a very rare event (in fact, if I book at least 48 hours out, one chain guarantees me a room at the desired hotel @ rack rate). If the hotel fails to deliver with the room that meets my preferences, they not only cover my room at another nearby hotel, but they pay me $200 cash on the spot.

And how do you suppose this hotel is accomplishing this lofty goal of "guaranteeing" you a room, no matter what?

Answer: They are "walking" other guests. Your "elite" status is maintained purely at the expense of others -- and should be illegal, in my humble opinion.

I hate so much of the mainstream lodging industry. The good news is that the industry is SO bad that we've been able to successfully design our hotels specifically to address the things we hate so much about traveling -- which, not surprisingly, it turns out that EVERYBODY hates the same things...

 

[Jay Honeck]

Do you really think the local police are going to arrest a local hotel operator for fraud (or whatever) on the say so of an out of towner?

Over the years, we've had to have some unruly guests removed by the gendarmes. In one case, the perp, er, guest demanded that *I* be arrested for "fraudulently" charging him for a room he wasn't going to be able to use.

The cops just laughed -- and escorted him off the property.

Different circumstances, I know -- but sadly, the consumer seems to be powerless to do anything against the chains for over-booking, EXCEPT take their business elsewhere.

That's a futile effort, however, since all the chains need to do to counteract THAT little problem is to run another multi-million-dollar ad campaign to convince the sheeple how "smart" they were to stay at their hotel last night...

 

[Jay Honeck]

Agree with this. Unfortunately it's hard to tell the good operators from the bad ones without having stayed there.

In thinking about it, perhaps one of the reasons we have better luck is that we usually have the FBO make the reservations for us unless it is a place we go frequently. This is an advantage because we often get the cheaper FBO rate, plus if a pilot comes back with a bad review they will be reluctant to send someone there again.

That usually works well for us, too. Unfortunately, as more and more FBOs go unstaffed, that service is going away, too.

 

[Jay Honeck]

One option for you to continue with Expedia is to contact the customer to confirm they made the reservation. After a phone call to them (or email if provided) then a fax to confirm. Yes, this is labor intensive, but is it cheaper than going thru this aggravation over and over?

You probably missed this from an earlier post. Expedia reservations come to us without any customer information. All we get is name, and cc number. We have no way to contact the guest.

Expedia does this so that hotels can't call the guest and offer them a better deal -- which, quite frankly, is something I would LOVE to do.

This opens up another opportunity to make a point: You will ALWAYS get a better deal than Expedia can offer, simply by calling the hotel and asking for the owner or manager. Explain to him that you are about to book on-line, and were wondering if you could get a better deal.

If he has a brain in his head, he will offer you a better deal. This is because hotels must pay Expedia a 15% commission. I would GLADLY give you a 10% lower rate than you were going to pay Expedia, and pocket the 5% savings.

Note that this rarely works with chains, as their "managers" have only slightly more real power than their clerks. Yet another reason to avoid franchise businesses.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Your island is unique in conducting biz in the fashion. I'm in hotels EVERY week and check-in from 16:00-23:00 and have NEVER not had my ressie honored.

Nope. This is a national problem. It was even worse in Iowa than it is here.

It's also worse in destinations with wildly changing occupancy. This would include tourist destinations (like the island) and Iowa City during Big Ten football season.

Overbooking and walking rarely happens at business destinations, where you can safely predict an "X" occupancy rate year-round. Here, our occupancy swings from near-zero in the off-off-season, to near-100% for months on end during the season. Thus, no one wants to build enough hotel rooms to handle the seasonal crowds, because they'd all starve the rest of the year...

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Note that this rarely works with chains, as their "managers" have only slightly more real power than their clerks. Yet another reason to avoid franchise businesses.

Actually, just go to the chain's web site. You can often get special pricing there as they often run promotions (I did on my last vacation- 20% off in Yellowstone).

A good reason for going to some chains is that they enforce standards. I generally know what I'll get in a Hampton Inn or Holiday Inn Express.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Actually, just go to the chain's web site. You can often get special pricing there as they often run promotions (I did on my last vacation- 20% off in Yellowstone).

A good reason for going to some chains is that they enforce standards. I generally know what I'll get in a Hampton Inn or Holiday Inn Express.

Exceedingly low standards, but, yes, standards.

But you're right -- their website specials are their attempt at getting around the insanely high fees the on-line booking agents are now charging.

 

[Everskyward]

That's a futile effort, however, since all the chains need to do to counteract THAT little problem is to run another multi-million-dollar ad campaign to convince the sheeple how "smart" they were to stay at their hotel last night...

There are reasons that people, especially business travelers, prefer chains. It's probably not a good business tactic to try to shame them into something else.

 

[Jay Honeck]

There are reasons that people, especially business travelers, prefer chains. It's probably not a good business tactic to try to shame them into something else.

I'm talking in a group of friends, and trying to explain how my industry works. Hotel chains LAUGH about the way they screw their guests. I know, because I have attended the lodging meetings, and had drinks with 'em.

So, if you like magnetic swipe key cards (that don't work), desk staff that know nothing about their area (and couldn't care less), thawed-out frozen muffins and stale cereal, served until 9:30 AM (if you're lucky) in a room with a bunch of guys who haven't taken a shower yet, and rooms that have all the style and personality of a hospital waiting room (but have lobbies that are encased in marble and brass), stay at chain motels.

If you'd like something better, for less money than they will charge you, stay with us. It's no different than trying to find a good, non-chain restaurant. To find the gems, you have to look harder -- but it's usually worth it.

 

[Anthony]

To find the gems, you have to look harder -- but it's usually worth it.

How do you recomend we do that? How do you know if a hotel is good or not if we know nothing about it? Do you have an independent hotel association? Is there a secret code or handshake? Send me the decoder ring, and I'll give it a whirl!

 

[Everskyward]

So, if you like magnetic swipe key cards

What is wrong with magnetic swipe keys? I prefer them to physical keys because they are easier to carry and it isn't so much of an issue if you misplace them.

Recently we had a choice of staying "near the airport where most pilots stay" or "in town within walking distance of everything". I chose the in town option because we were there for two nights and this was a resort area. The location was great. The rooms were in a remodeled old house. The bathroom was extremely tiny with no counter. There was also no desk and only a very small TV in the room although there was an antique dresser and a four-poster bed which was high enough that it needed a step. The keys were also conventional. The breakfast didn't start until 0830 which didn't help us much since that's about the time we were supposed to show at the airport the last day. The day we were able to have breakfast there the homemade blueberry muffins were better than the store-bought kind. There was also a nice front porch outside our rooms where we ate some sandwiches we bought for lunch. All in all it was a nice change of pace but I wouldn't want to stay in a place like that all the time.

 

[weilke]

I stay in hotels a lot. Only chains. I check in anywhere fom 9am to 1am. Reservations through the respective chains corporate site. Never had a problem with reservations being honored.

 

[DaleB]

So, if you like magnetic swipe key cards (that don't work), desk staff that know nothing about their area (and couldn't care less), thawed-out frozen muffins and stale cereal, served until 9:30 AM (if you're lucky) in a room with a bunch of guys who haven't taken a shower yet, and rooms that have all the style and personality of a hospital waiting room (but have lobbies that are encased in marble and brass), stay at chain motels.

If you'd like something better, for less money than they will charge you, stay with us. It's no different than trying to find a good, non-chain restaurant. To find the gems, you have to look harder -- but it's usually worth it.

OK, I get that you're not a fan of hotel chains. When we travel, we usually look for a Holiday Inn Express. Why? We know exactly what to expect. We have never once had a substandard room, and the breakfast -- while not as good as we'd get at home -- is hot, included in the price, and available. We've tried other chains and quality has been hit or miss. Some are great, some are crap. I don't care how nice Joe's Hotel claims to be on their web site, and I don't care how nice Joe himself says it is... you never know until you check in.

We've never once reserved a room and not had that room ready when we arrived. I travel frequently on business, and am required to use hotels with which our corporate overlords have worked out pricing -- so I stay at an Intercontinental property, use my Priority Club card to pay, and double-dip on the points. That gets my wife and I free nights when we travel for our own enjoyment. We saved over $750 on hotel bills in Germany -- two free nights in Berlin and two more in Frankfurt (both VERY nice places). That's tough to beat.

If we're going somewhere we have not been before, we know nothing about the area or its hotels. EVERY SINGLE HOTEL claims they're clean, shiny, have great service, are way better than the big chains, etc. But how do you know? You don't, until you get there. By then it's too late.

I used a booking joint (Hotels.com) exactly once. Their highly rated, well reviewed hotel in Ft. Collins turned out to be the crappiest fleabag we'd ever seen. Mold stink from the pool, and our room stunk so badly of cigarette smoke that it was like stuffing your face into an ashtray. It was horrible. As a special bonus for booking through Hotels.com, neither the hotel nor Hotels.com would do anything about it other than sprinkle some carpet cleaner and put a portable ionizer in the room while we fled for a few hours. So, never ever again. I book through the hotel's web site. (I used to call, but they all just sent me to the reservation center anyway, and the web site is quicker).

So I got a little long winded, but there is a point I'm making. If we ever go to your little island, I'll book a room with you -- because I know of you through here. And if we hear first hand from friends we trust of a place they stayed, we'll consider staying there. But when we travel, I'm not inclined to spend hours trying to determine if there's a well run, well maintained independent hotel with decent rates, then hoping the information I got is correct and current.

If I were in your position, I'd take a good hard look at not taking any business from Expedia again. You say you got 18% of your bookings from them. OK... are you at capacity? Could you overbook if you chose to? Are you turning away business, and if so how much? If you pull the plug on Expedia, will you actually LOSE 18% of your business, or will you simply get those reservations from somewhere else? That's a question only you can answer. If Expedia won't give you information to verify the customer, AND won't stand behind the reservation in any way, you either accept the risk or tell them where to stuff it. You have to decide what it's worth to you.

 

[Henning]

You either stand up or accept that that's just the way things will be in the future. The world is what WE make of it, the conditions are no one's fault but our own. If you have a slam dunk 3 times in arbitration, why do you fear you'll lose this time? It's only money you can lose if you go forward. It's self respect you lose if you don't. What's more important?