heard Saturday..."Hey buddie, what the F.....k is an overhead break?"

EdFred said:
I'm not type rated. Plus, I don't think I've ever seen a jet fly a pattern - always a straight in.
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So the type makes it safe? I can promise you we don't always come straight in.

SteveinIndy said:
I do as well. However, a bunch of us setting up a display versus some guy with 200 hours trying to more or less to show off are entirely the different.
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Do you find it as hilarious as I do, that the guy who plays adult cowboys and indians is giving guys who paint their toy airplanes in military schemes a hard time.
 
Do you find it as hilarious as I do, that the guy who plays adult cowboys and indians is giving
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Actually, I did no such thing (unless paid to do so by a film crew). The group I was with didn't take part in the actual "reenactments" in the sense of the 'pop, pop, bang, bang' crap. Our only activity was education for the public, mostly school groups. However, I do see the apparent irony of what you're saying.
 
SteveinIndy said:
Actually, I did no such thing..
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I guess it's all about perception. You view the overhead break as showing off, I view an adult man dressing up in a costume to be playing cowboys and indians. Maybe Kraut's and Yankees..

SteveinIndy said:
I do see the apparent irony of what you're saying.
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Ok, as long as you see it.

I'd love to have our RV painted in camo. No real specific "Big Beautiful Doll" paint, maybe something like Navy aggressor or quasi-Russian camo and I can assure you, it has zero to do with projecting how large or small my organ is.

EdFred said:
Not being type rated, I've never flown a jet.
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What does being typed have to do with your statement. You said it's dangerous. I'm asking if it is always dangerous. Being typed or not is not part of the issue.

Unless, of course, a type rating means you are now allowed to do things you deem as unsafe?
 
Everskyward said:
How do you think they get turned around when they are coming from the opposite direction of how they want to land? :confused:
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Duh.. Split S to final! Only the best pilots are able to split and intercept the slope all at the same time.
 
I'd love to have our RV painted in camo. No real specific "Big Beautiful Doll" paint, maybe something like Navy aggressor or quasi-Russian camo and I can assure you, it has zero to do with projecting how large or small my organ is.
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Maybe it's just the RV, Sonex and the other "my plane looks like a fighter if you squint hard enough" crowd here. The ones who have the invasion stripes tend to be flown by the most insecure folks and therefore excessively aggressive pilots around the local airports. There are a few of them that if I hear their call sign, I either stay on the ground or get out of the area. I'll admit my own bias based on these experiences, but after witnessing more than a few near miss collisions with these guys trying to "dogfight" (basically just chasing each other around) or fly in formation, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up whenever I see one or hear someone call an overhead break.

BTW, this isn't just anti-homebuilt or anti-RV. I honestly really like the RV series and I'm designing my own homebuilt at the moment. This thread is actually providing a break from pulling the research papers I need for that purpose.
 
BellyUpFish said:
Duh.. Split S to final! Only the best pilots are able to split and intercept the slope all at the same time.
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*snort*

DarthRonson1.jpg
 
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Dead Horse...Hellooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!! :dunno:

Dead Horse...Hellooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!! :dunno:

Dead Horse...Hellooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!! :dunno:
 
SteveinIndy said:
Maybe it's just the RV, Sonex and the other "my plane looks like a fighter if you squint hard enough" crowd here. The ones who have the invasion stripes tend to be flown by the most insecure folks and therefore excessively aggressive pilots around the local airports. There are a few of them that if I hear their call sign, I either stay on the ground or get out of the area.
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The only thing I'd willingly put invasion stripes on would something that had invasion stripes at one point in time. I'd love to have a J-3 painted like an NE-1.

I'll admit my own bias based on these experiences, but after witnessing more than a few near miss collisions with these guys trying to "dogfight" (basically just chasing each other around) or fly in formation, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up whenever I see one or hear someone call an overhead break.
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There are lots of idiots in every community.

SteveinIndy said:
BTW, this isn't just anti-homebuilt or anti-RV. I honestly really like the RV series and I'm designing my own homebuilt at the moment. This thread is actually providing a break from pulling the research papers I need for that purpose.
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RV's are a blast. A friend of mine is designing his own home built. I'd love to seem some sketches/cad of your work.
 
BellyUpFish said:
What does being typed have to do with your statement. You said it's dangerous. I'm asking if it is always dangerous. Being typed or not is not part of the issue.

Unless, of course, a type rating means you are now allowed to do things you deem as unsafe?
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I'm going to make the assumption that flying the jet pattern at 1500' and at the higher speeds will never put you at the same altitude as props until on final, so it's a non-issue.
 
And there you go. Glad I didn't type more earlier, in this emotionally cold interwebs environment, as it seems we all are capable of giving and receiving some fecal matter with a smile!

Back to the topic,

Few memories in this world give me more pleasure than the one or two "Let me tell you about . . ." breaks I had in my Naval career. If I eventually find the money to get myself that tandem seat RV I want, you can be sure I will break in it, because it will remind me of the former.

Nor do I begrudge any some-hundred-hour pilot for wanting to participate in any sort of formation work, and / or pattern entry via a break. As long as they put in the effort to learn properly, with proper assessment. If they pass the test, so be it.

Anyone, in any aviation endeavor, who does not put forth the proper effort, puts us all in harm's way, and that just is not right.

And, I AM partial to the invasion scheme, because those planes and the people who flew them are what I admired and studied so much growing up, leading me to follow in their footsteps. Not really a wannabe thing, more of a me really likee thing.
 
BiffJ said:
I was on the way to a fly-in saturday and was listening to the chatter at the airport as I got closer. There was a lot of traffic in the pattern and near the airport reporting positions as well as other helpful info. There was also a flight of 3 who I heard report "turning final" and then "going around" at least 5 times. I then heard the flight "leader" report "flight of 3 overhead break for 22". That was followed by someone who asked "Hey Buddy, What the F...k is and overhead break?" I thought this was a valid question. I did hear an "AMEN Brother" but with all the guys talking it got stepped on a bit. I agreed 100%. This was a strictly civvie airport with a huge crowd in the pattern and this guy is doing overhead breaks? After I landed and wandered a bit I discovered that the flight of "warbirds" doing the maneuver consisted of 2 YAK trainers and an RV7A painted in navy colors. I guess some guys feel the need to show off but why is it necessary at such a crowded event? I read the "pattern madness" thread and laughed a bit at the accusations of RV's being the brunt of the trouble makers but maybe its true. Having been around military aircraft most of my life and knowing a lot of the instructors and pilots I understand the purpose of the overhead break for military aircraft. Break up the formation to enter the pattern, create proper spacing and slow the aircraft down for landing. I can see this with a T38 but a fixed tri-gear RV and a couple draggy YAK's?
Put the gear down and they nearly stop in midair. . . especially the tri-gear YAK. I don't suppose its my place to say show-offs don't really fit in a busy traffic pattern with pilots of all experience ranges but I'd sure like to see them play somewhere else. Some of us have been around it long enough to expect idiots but the newer folks have enough to handle just flying. To suddenly have someone pull into the pattern in front of you is a little disconcerting......


Rant off....

Frank
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If the flight of 3 really had to go around 5 times, in my mind the pattern is too FRIGGIN busy to be showing off. :yesnod::yesnod::eek:
As my parents used to say "it is all fun and games till someone looses an eye":nono::nono:. In this case it would be lives..:yikes::yikes:

Just my humble ol opinion.

Ben.
 
EdFred said:
I'm not type rated. Plus, I don't think I've ever seen a jet fly a pattern - always a straight in.
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Same here -- only heard a jet fly pattern once (it was a Falcon at KFWQ and he was either being funny or had no idea where he was ((downwind after base?))

The other 100+ times were straight in.
 
EdFred said:
I'm going to make the assumption that flying the jet pattern at 1500' and at the higher speeds will never put you at the same altitude as props until on final, so it's a non-issue.
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Seriously?

So, as long as the overhead break is conducted 500' high at high speed, it's ok?
 
And there you go. Glad I didn't type more earlier, in this emotionally cold interwebs environment, as it seems we all are capable of giving and receiving some fecal matter with a smile!
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Please....after 15 years in health care, I decided to wade hip deep into the quagmire-like netherworld that is injury prevention. If I didn't have thick skin, I wouldn't survive with engineers on one side and the hippie-dippy public health folks on the other.

And, I AM partial to the invasion scheme, because those planes and the people who flew them are what I admired and studied so much growing up, leading me to follow in their footsteps. Not really a wannabe thing, more of a me really likee thing.
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Duly noted. Those guys are my heroes as well. One of my goals is to build a full scale replica of a Spitfire at some point. However, given that I had family on both sides of the European conflict* and one of my ancestors actually flew a Bf-109 on the Eastern Front, I am also interested in having a full-scale replica of one of those.

*- The joke my dad tells when he wants to sleep on the couch: "What's the definition of D-Day in this family? It's the day my side of the family and half of your mom's started to take back the territory held by the rest of her family".
 
dmccormack said:
Same here -- only heard a jet fly pattern once (it was a Falcon at KFWQ and he was either being funny or had no idea where he was ((downwind after base?))

The other 100+ times were straight in.
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Interesting. The last landing I made in a jet involved a visual approach and a pattern (downwind, base and final), at an uncontrolled airport. It might be fun to try that split S, though. :rofl:
 
N801BH said:
If the flight of 3 really had to go around 5 times, in my mind the pattern is too FRIGGIN busy to be showing off. :yesnod::yesnod::eek:
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I agree. If they had to break off the OB 5 times to make it work, I would have just separated and come in individually.
 
dmccormack said:
Same here -- only heard a jet fly pattern once (it was a Falcon at KFWQ and he was either being funny or had no idea where he was ((downwind after base?))

The other 100+ times were straight in.
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What's really funny is when former tactical guys flying C-9's would fly us back home after a deployment, and come into the break.

We shook our heads and smirked in the back, as I am sure they grinned from ear to ear in the front.

That's why we all still see a twenty-something male when we look in the mirror. :D
 
Everskyward said:
Interesting. The last landing I made in a jet involved a visual approach and a pattern (downwind, base and final), at an uncontrolled airport. It might be fun to try that split S, though. :rofl:
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At KFWQ there are GPS approaches for 8 and 26. My guess is most times they're coming in IFR then get the Visual when 10 miles out or so.

It's what I usually got coming in IMC with VFR below.
 
Everskyward said:
Interesting. The last landing I made in a jet involved a visual approach and a pattern (downwind, base and final), at an uncontrolled airport. It might be fun to try that split S, though. :rofl:
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IMPOSSIBLE! Two forum members here see it happen rarely, so you must be lying. :goofy:
 
Inverted said:
They aren't doing anything wrong, the overhead break should occur 500 feet above TPA so in reality it shouldn't matter to anyone, uncontrolled airspace is see and avoid if you can't handle heavy traffic you shouldn't be there.
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What about the guy on base or final that he doesn't see as he descends off the perch? As EdFred said, descending into the [normal] traffic pattern is not good.
 
catmandu said:
What's really funny is when former tactical guys flying C-9's would fly us back home after a deployment, and come into the break.

We shook our heads and smirked in the back, as I am sure they grinned from ear to ear in the front.

That's why we all still see a twenty-something male when we look in the mirror. :D
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Or the SWA former navy guys that have to catch the wire on every landing?

:rofl:

(I'm sure I can tell the difference between a guy that came from Navy or Air Force -- the AF guys use the WHOLE runway!)
 
dmccormack said:
Are you contributing to the conversation or merely being contrary?
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I was merely being contrary.

It just cracks me up sometimes, you guys seem to think that since something is not a part of YOUR daily operation, it doesn't happen.

I can't count the number of "downwind, base and final" visual approaches I've flown in a jet. Do we fly the pattern as often as we get a straight in? Obviously not. Does it happen. Everyday.

We also flew the pattern 500' in the Jetstream 32, which totally blows Ed's "speed will prevent the conflict" idea out of the water or it indicates that the pattern can be flown 500' safely.
 
dmccormack said:
At KFWQ there are GPS approaches for 8 and 26. My guess is most times they're coming in IFR then get the Visual when 10 miles out or so.

It's what I usually got coming in IMC with VFR below.
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If the weather is good I usually tell them that we're expecting to do the visual and they give us direct to the airport. Obviously I don't do this if I think we are going to need to start the approach in IMC, if it's night and I'm unfamiliar with the area, or if I think the airport will be hard to spot. Otherwise, what is the point of flying miles out of the way in the other direction to shoot the instrument approach? It's not that difficult, or even a little difficult to fly a pattern. Heck, even at controlled airports they often ask us to enter downwind or else we are vectored to the downwind.
 
dmccormack said:
Or the SWA former navy guys that have to catch the wire on every landing?

:rofl:

(I'm sure I can tell the difference between a guy that came from Navy or Air Force -- the AF guys use the WHOLE runway!)
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Nah, that's not so much Gold vs. Tin as it is SWA pays by the leg (Slam it, Stop it, Park it!), others by the hour (Flare, Float, Mosey, Wait for the Jetbridge, cha-ching, cha-ching, cha-ching!)

:D
 
catmandu said:
Nah, that's not so much Gold vs. Tin as it is SWA pays by the leg (Slam it, Stop it, Park it!), others by the hour (Flare, Float, Mosey, Wait for the Jetbridge, cha-ching, cha-ching, cha-ching!)

:D
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Gold and Tin.. :) Navy wings are made of gold, Air Farce wings are made of lead? I keed. I keed.

I love sitting waiting on rampers to park us, while watching SWA pull up and park themselves.. ;)
 
BellyUpFish said:
I was merely being contrary.

It just cracks me up sometimes, you guys seem to think that since something is not a part of YOUR daily operation, it doesn't happen.

I can't count the number of "downwind, base and final" visual approaches I've flown in a jet. Do we fly the pattern as often as we get a straight in? Obviously not. Does it happen. Everyday.

We also flew the pattern 500' in the Jetstream 32, which totally blows Ed's "speed will prevent the conflict" idea out of the water or it indicates that the pattern can be flown 500' safely.
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Fine -- in my expereince at GA fields (one with several based corporate jets) they rarely flew the pattern.

And that's precisely what I said.
 
dmccormack said:
Fine -- in my expereince at GA fields (one with several based corporate jets) they rarely flew the pattern.
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Great, in my experience as pilot of said creatures operating in and out of GA fields reguarly, it happens more often than 1 in 100's. :wink2:

Is it too early for "my dad can beat up your dad!" yet?
 
Speaking of paint jobs, is this a wannabe?

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I think it's cute. If I had an airplane I would paint it the way I wanted to paint it and wouldn't care what anyone else had to say about it. :D
 

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Everskyward said:
Speaking of paint jobs, is this a wannabe?
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Wannabe what ?

If you fly with him, will he:
- loose your luggage
- treat you in the most rude way possible
- deny you boarding when you show up
- break your guitar
 
kkoran said:
What about the guy on base or final that he doesn't see as he descends off the perch? As EdFred said, descending into the [normal] traffic pattern is not good.
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How is descending into the normal traffic pattern not good? Whats the difference between entering on the base, final as you say, verses on the 45? You are descending all the same. It seems like most of you see this as black and white. Just because somebody doesn't enter a non controlled traffic pattern on the 45 doesn't mean their wrong. Just because the winds favor runway 7 doesn't mean its wrong to land 25, or 14/32 etc.

The traffic pattern is one of the most dangerous places to be flying, period. Especially at an uncontrolled airport.
 
BTW, if anyone has any questions about formation flying, and what it takes to be a safe, effective flight lead, feel free to PM or email me, or start a new thread on that. The "yammer level" in this one makes it unreadable for me.
 
Everskyward said:
Speaking of paint jobs, is this a wannabe?

attachment.php


I think it's cute. If I had an airplane I would paint it the way I wanted to paint it and wouldn't care what anyone else had to say about it. :D
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There is probably zero chance he is a United pilot....
 
Inverted said:
Agreed 100%, but I can argue, and will argue all day long, I have seen more improper and downright stupid things happen in the pattern by students, private pilots etc. than formation flying.
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Perhaps so, but entering the pattern 500 above TPA and diving in from there (as you advocated above) is unacceptable by all formation standards with which I am familiar.
 
And which are you familiar with? FAST? Military?


OVERHEAD MANEUVER- A series of predetermined maneuvers prescribed for aircraft (often in formation) for entry into the visual flight rules (VFR) traffic pattern and to proceed to a landing. An overhead maneuver is not an instrument flight rules (IFR) approach procedure. An aircraft executing an overhead maneuver is considered VFR and the IFR flight plan is cancelled when the aircraft reaches the "initial point" on the initial approach portion of the maneuver. The pattern usually specifies the following:
a. The radio contact required of the pilot.
b. The speed to be maintained.
c. An initial approach 3 to 5 miles in length.
d. An elliptical pattern consisting of two 180 degree turns.
e. A break point at which the first 180 degree turn is started.
f. The direction of turns.
g. Altitude (at least 500 feet above the conventional pattern).
h. A "Roll-out" on final approach not less than 1/4 mile from the landing threshold and not less than 300 feet above the ground.
 
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