heard Saturday..."Hey buddie, what the F.....k is an overhead break?"

BellyUpFish said:
Now it's "like aircraft." This is a new revelation for you. So how do we separate turbo-props from the jets and the bug smashers? I can fly the pattern in a Citation at the exact same speed I can fly the pattern in say, an Mu2 and an RV6. So, what's the issue now? I guess we need the AIM to give us pattern entry airspeeds as well.

So, you're saying, as long as you fly a wide and fast pattern, it's ok to fly an overhead break at 500' high?

How does speed equate to an aircraft not descending on top of another airplane on final? :confused:

What about a jet who enters the pattern 500' via the crosswind at a non-towered airfield. Is this just asking for trouble as well?

I think it boils down to a basic misunderstanding of what is happening in an overhead break.




Why does it always have to boil down to showing off.

Is a pilot who does aerobatics showing off?

Could it be possible that pilots doing the overhead break, may actually be doing them because they are enjoyable?

Maybe you need to get out of your station wagon and drive a sports car. You might like it.
Click to expand...

Where did I ever advocate the overhead break? I didn't. Quit trying to paint me into a corner I'm not even close to standing in.

I mentioned 500' above previously and your comment was, "I fly there in jets all the time." Maybe you just have reading comprehension issues if you aren't purposely trying to distort my position.
 
EdFred said:
Where did I ever advocate the overhead break? I didn't. Quit trying to paint me into a corner I'm not even close to standing in.
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Out of my entire reply to you, the only portion you're willing to answer is about the overhead break? I never said you advocated it. It's obvious you don't. When you see the ? symbol in the English language it indicates a question. I asked a question, I didn't accuse you of advocating the overhead break.

My question was asked due to your reasoning as to why the OB at TPA +500' was dangerous.

You have made previous statements saying this is dangerous. "Descending into the pattern from TPA +500' is dangerous." That is a paraphrase. I'm not going to dig up your quote.

So, to that end, I asked about jets entering the pattern 500' high. I'm not talking about the overhead break. I'm just asking about jets.

You then assumed it's a non-issue, since a jet is faster and flies a wider pattern than a "bugsmasher."

Basically, you're saying that flying the pattern 500 high in a jet is ok, no longer dangerous since we're faster and wider.

So, I asked - as long as you fly a wide and fast pattern, it's ok to fly an overhead break at 500' high? Notice the ?, a question has been posed.

EdFred said:
Maybe you just have reading comprehension issues if you aren't purposely trying to distort my position.
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Of course, someone disagrees with you and you have to deflect the questions and insinuate the other person has "issues." There is no reason to get personal. I just disagree with you, I don't think you have "issues." Nice deflection though.

I'm not distorting your position. I'm trying to understand your statements.

You went from "TPA +500' is dangerous!" to "TPA +500' is ok, if you're in a fast and wide jet."

So I ask, if I fly my RV6 at TPA +500 at 160kts is this ok?
 
I already said, with jets being faster, the 500' is a non-issue. Their patterns are wider (not going to descend onto the piston fleet on downwind. Their patterns are longer (not going to descend onto the piston fleet on base) By the time they get to final, they are going to be below TPA for the piston fleet - that's why the 500+' for jets is not an issue. (Of course if you have some idiot in a 152 flying jet sized patterns, well, go ahead and take him out because that dumb-ass shouldn't be in the air to begin with)

As far as flying your RV-6 at that sort of pattern speed - no.
 
EdFred said:
I already said, with jets being faster, the 500' is a non-issue. Their patterns are wider (not going to descend onto the piston fleet on downwind. Their patterns are longer (not going to descend onto the piston fleet on base) By the time they get to final, they are going to be below TPA for the piston fleet - that's why the 500+' for jets is not an issue. (Of course if you have some idiot in a 152 flying jet sized patterns, well, go ahead and take him out because that dumb-ass shouldn't be in the air to begin with)

As far as flying your RV-6 at that sort of pattern speed - no.
Click to expand...

Curious, but ok. If that's how you feel, cool.
 
Where the hell is the BEATING A DEAD HORSE emoticon? Holy cow, ENOUGH ALREADY....!!!!!!!!!!
We've heard it, we've discussed it and we've beaten it to FREAKING DEATH!
ENOUGH ALREADY :mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:
 
Inverted said:
How is descending into the normal traffic pattern not good? Whats the difference between entering on the base, final as you say, verses on the 45? You are descending all the same. It seems like most of you see this as black and white. Just because somebody doesn't enter a non controlled traffic pattern on the 45 doesn't mean their wrong. Just because the winds favor runway 7 doesn't mean its wrong to land 25, or 14/32 etc.

The traffic pattern is one of the most dangerous places to be flying, period. Especially at an uncontrolled airport.
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There is a difference between descending in the pattern and descending into the pattern.
 
flyingriki said:
Where the hell is the BEATING A DEAD HORSE emoticon? Holy cow, ENOUGH ALREADY....!!!!!!!!!!
We've heard it, we've discussed it and we've beaten it to FREAKING DEATH!
ENOUGH ALREADY :mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:
Click to expand...

:deadhorse:

(ETA: guess it doesn't work here)
 
kyleb said:
Here's the deal:

It is the flying corollary to George Carlin's bit about driving. According to George (RIP), anyone who drives slower than you is a moron, anyone who drives faster is an idiot.
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That's a FACT jack.

I already mentioned geezers in Corvettes. People with handicap plates are frequently in the above mentioned moron catagory as well. Why? Even in the grocery store where they are driving a scooter they seem to be reluctant to step on the gas. How hard can it be?

People in the above mentioned idiot catagory seem to be few and far between.

:wink2:

wanttaja said:
A few years back, I was flying along, minding my own business, when a flight of four Stearmans passed by ~500-1000 feet overhead. When they were directly overhead, they broke into sudden aerobatics, and I stuffed the nose down to get out of there in a hurry. It was the Red Baron team getting some practice in.

Legal? Yep. Wish they'd looked around a bit before starting their routine, though. I figure downward vis in a Stearman probably isn't too good, and having the pilots concentrating on formation doesn't help. Still....

Ron Wanttaja
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Three of the pilots should have been 100% focused on the formation (seperation). But one of the pilots should have been navigating and watching for traffic. Obviously, that one pilot didn't see you underneath.
 
ScottM said:
I'll 2nd that.

Any opposed?
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All in favor, signify with Aye

Actually, on second thought can we delete both threads? The only thing I've learned is that some guys like the OB and will do it no matter what anyone thinks and some don't like it at all and don't want anyone to do it. I tihnk that about sums it up. :mad2::mad2::mad2:
 
EppyGA said:
All in favor, signify with Aye

Actually, on second thought can we delete both threads? The only thing I've learned is that some guys like the OB and will do it no matter what anyone thinks and some don't like it at all and don't want anyone to do it. I tihnk that about sums it up. :mad2::mad2::mad2:
Click to expand...

Yup, some guys will do all kinds of stuff no mater what anyone says. That's why the accident rate in GA is so damned high. That's why the fatal rate for Ex/Ab is even higher. That's why, when the FAA gets done, we'll be lucky if there is Ex/Ab, or even GA to speak of.
 
silver-eagle said:
Line up a mile in tril, enter at the FAA recommended 45, and follow your fellow aviators to the ground. I don't care if you're a flight of 2 or 20, if you disrupt a pattern, YOU are in the wrong.
Click to expand...

What if use the equally legal and AIM provided for "Straight in" entry?
 
Fearless Tower said:
Who needs treadmill threads when we can debate overhead breaks???
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Because at least the Treadmill AND upwind / downwind turn are physics based problems with a correct answer. :D Discussing them can be a learning experience. (I was proved wrong on the downwind turn..... and I learned why.... and proved the correct answer to myself)

The OB is like religion, there is no definitive answer that one can prove with facts. Its just an opinion, which is why you can't debate to show how the other person is wrong. You just argue, until your forehead is raw :mad2:
 
Henning said:
What if use the equally legal and AIM provided for "Straight in" entry?
Click to expand...
Like I said, the key to an arrival is fitting in. A straight in, cross wind, 45, or direct to downwind are all acceptable forms as long as you're safe in doing so. You don't use your approach to muscle your way to the front of the line no more than you use your altitude.
That's not just unsafe, that's rude.
 
I was out flying this morning east of Dallas at an uncontrolled field and heard an experimental pilot identify himself as an RV-9 and call in that he was entering the pattern with a 45 to a left downwind.

Given what I've read on these two threads I had to pull my headset off and clean my ears.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
EppyGA said:
All in favor, signify with Aye

Actually, on second thought can we delete both threads? The only thing I've learned is that some guys like the OB and will do it no matter what anyone thinks and some don't like it at all and don't want anyone to do it. I tihnk that about sums it up. :mad2::mad2::mad2:
Click to expand...

Actually, I learned stuff from the other thread. If you can ignore the bits where things get a bit heated and personal (though, really, it never got that bad) you can find some interesting things in there. Not the most efficient way to present the information, but I like seeing pilots with more experience than me argue about stuff. Very informative.
 
Inverted said:
If you saw a guy doing legal aerobatics during your flight and you had to change course, would you think he/she was a dangerous jack ass that has no regard for anyone around them?
Click to expand...

If they were doing it in the pattern, yes. Anywhere else, no, as long as they don't pop out of a cloud right in front of me.

And I have no problem with higher, lower, closer or farther patterns, or entering on any leg, or breaking a formation into the pattern... if it is done with some regard for the traffic already in the pattern. But I see all of the above done without said consideration, and in addition to making me feel that they're playing fast and loose with my life, it makes me wonder how much these people value their own lives.


I'm sorry if that's too rigid and narrow-minded for you, but I think it's a reasonable reaction.
 
I am not so tired of life to have read all of this thread but has anyone mentioned 'flights' of RVs clogging up CTAF with their air-to-air 'chats'? Detailing where they are, what they are going to do and how much like fighter jocks they are? Drives me nuts!
 
ChrisS said:
I am not so tired of life to have read all of this thread but has anyone mentioned 'flights' of RVs clogging up CTAF with their air-to-air 'chats'? Detailing where they are, what they are going to do and how much like fighter jocks they are? Drives me nuts!
Click to expand...

:rollercoaster:
 
ChrisS said:
I am not so tired of life to have read all of this thread but has anyone mentioned 'flights' of RVs clogging up CTAF with their air-to-air 'chats'? Detailing where they are, what they are going to do and how much like fighter jocks they are? Drives me nuts!
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Come to the northeast. With all the freqs available, there are only a few assigned to unicoms. When flying you get to hear the self-announcements of a dozen different airports at once. Chatter between aircraft wouldn't clog the freq ... it's already clogged.
 
Bob Noel said:
Come to the northeast. With all the freqs available, there are only a few assigned to unicoms. When flying you get to hear the self-announcements of a dozen different airports at once. Chatter between aircraft wouldn't clog the freq ... it's already clogged.
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Tell me about it. 122.8 around these parts is shared by many of the busiest airfields and flying at the altitudes we tend to fly at you can clearly pick up the traffic at each one of them.....especially all the RVs. :wink2:
 
On the way up to Michigan we were on the local frequencies a lot, and they were just jammed. It was so welcome to hear. For the last couple years they've been so quiet. I was starting to worry I was going to see GA go out of the world for all intensive purposes. Still might.
 
steingar said:
On the way up to Michigan we were on the local frequencies a lot, and they were just jammed. It was so welcome to hear. For the last couple years they've been so quiet. I was starting to worry I was going to see GA go out of the world for all intensive purposes. Still might.
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One of these days I gotta visit some of the airports that I hear so much about on 123.0 (D95, OZW, SKY seem to have a lot of activity)
 
EdFred said:
I'm not type rated. Plus, I don't think I've ever seen a jet fly a pattern - always a straight in.
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The F-16's, T-37's and T-45's I see going into Alliance do overhead breaks all the time, into downwind, base, final... they rarely do straight in landings. And they come into the overhead FAST.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
The F-16's, T-37's and T-45's I see going into Alliance do overhead breaks all the time, into downwind, base, final... they rarely do straight in landings. And they come into the overhead FAST.
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Is Alliance towered?
 
What has annoyed me more then the "overhead break" lately are these airline hotshots coming on CTAF frequencies saying they're inbound any traficc in the area please advise and then DON'T say the airport they're landing at what so ever. I heard this three times last weekend. Each time I asked them to kindly inform me what airport they're landing at...as the CTAF covers hundreds of airports...Of course they never do.
 
Just scream "Bandit 12 o'clock, heading for the airport. Too close for missiles, switching to guns."
 
jesse said:
What has annoyed me more then the "overhead break" lately are these airline hotshots coming on CTAF frequencies saying they're inbound any traficc in the area please advise and then DON'T say the airport they're landing at what so ever. I heard this three times last weekend. Each time I asked them to kindly inform me what airport they're landing at...as the CTAF covers hundreds of airports...Of course they never do.
Click to expand...


I love how these comments are directed towards a certain segment of the flying population, as if other segments of the population don't screw up.. :rofl: I've never understood why there is such a rift between the "GA" guys and the "professional" guys.. It's really pretty silly.. :confused:

I've seen 25,000 guys make mistakes. I've seen guys with <1 hour make mistakes and I've seen guys everywhere in between make mistakes.

There are those who have and those who will, in every segment of the aviation community.
 
BellyUpFish said:
I love how these comments are directed towards a certain segment of the flying population, as if other segments of the population don't screw up.. :rofl: I've never understood why there is such a rift between the "GA" guys and the "professional" guys.. It's really pretty silly.. :confused:

I've seen 25,000 guys make mistakes. I've seen guys with <1 hour make mistakes and I've seen guys everywhere in between make mistakes.

There are those who have and those who will, in every segment of the aviation community.
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I find it funny how you have to look at a post and then assume I'm attacking airline pilots. Pretty defensive aren't you?

In this case they were both airline pilots. Every time I've heard "any traffic in the area please advise" it's always been a turbine piloted by an airline or a charter company. I'm sorry, that's just my experience. My students have better CTAF skills.

It seems to happen so often that I wonder if any of the airlines have any policies regarding CTAF operations or train on it what so ever because it's not very often I hear one make a decent radio call.

I don't care who it is. But I do get rather annoyed when I hear someone say they're screaming into a pattern "any traffic in the area please advise" and not once at the start or end say the airport name then not respond when I ask them for it. God forbid they replace 7 words with one useful one, like, the airport name.

"Jet 123 inbound to land any traffic in the area please advise". Sigh...
 
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