Practice Approaches Not Allowed?

SkyHog

SkyHog

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Everything Offends Me
So - you need practice, and the only ILS nearby is at an airport where the ATIS says "Practice Approaches not Allowed."

So, what authority does a controller have to make this requirement? Moreover, lets say you just continually fly approaches, go missed, and eventually divert to your alternate, which happens to be the point of origin?

Can the controllers actually stop you from going missed and diverting?
 
No they can't.

BUT

they don't have to approve your next one either.
 
Nick, no... it's not that at all. There are plenty of ILSs nearby. PTK, DET, FNT, MTC, OZW, YIP, PHN... did I miss any (not counting DTW of course)... the only one that doesn't allow practice approaches is MTC (Selfridge). They're a Class D. You can fly the approaches up to the edge of their airspace, but what then?

Does that make sense?
 
azure said:
Nick, no... it's not that at all. There are plenty of ILSs nearby. PTK, DET, FNT, MTC, OZW, YIP, PHN... did I miss any (not counting DTW of course)... the only one that doesn't allow practice approaches is MTC (Selfridge). They're a Class D. You can fly the approaches up to the edge of their airspace, but what then?

Does that make sense?
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I'm speaking hypotheticals, not specifically to your situation :D
 
SkyHog said:
So - you need practice, and the only ILS nearby is at an airport where the ATIS says "Practice Approaches not Allowed."
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Is this a hypothetical or did you hear this on a real ATIS?
 
Okay then, hypothetically...

If they have an ATIS chances are they're a Class D (or C or Bravo). So of course they can say, stay clear of the airspace. The MAP is inside their airspace. So for all intents and purposes, they can disallow approaches.

Maybe I'm missing the question...
 
SkyHog said:
Is this true? Can a controller refuse to allow you to fly an approach?
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Yes they can. they must clear you to start the approach.

an other aircraft may be in progress to the airport, and until he clears you can't start.

they will usually clear you to holding, or bring you around again, on vectors to the ILS.

But if they have no reason to, they will try to get you out of the system as fast as they can, to get back to the coffee break, card game or what ever.
 
roncachamp said:
Gee, what kind of traffic is there at those airports? Are they busy places?
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I'm not debating why they do it, I'm debating whether they can do it, and what happens if you fly a series of missed approaches instead of "practice approaches."
 
Depending traffic, it could be based on...

JO7110.65S
4-8-11. PRACTICE APPROACHES
Except for military aircraft operating at military airfields, ensure that neither VFR nor IFR practice approaches disrupt the flow of other arriving and departing IFR or VFR aircraft. Authorize, withdraw authorization, or refuse to authorize practice approaches as traffic conditions require. Normally, approaches in progress should not be terminated. ​
NOTE-
 The priority afforded other aircraft over practice instrument approaches is not intended to be so rigidly applied that it causes grossly inefficient application of services.​
 
SkyHog said:
I'm not debating why they do it, I'm debating whether they can do it, and what happens if you fly a series of missed approaches instead of "practice approaches."
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They will ask you why you went missed. If you have a valid reason, you can get vectored for another approach. If you DON"T have a valid reason, you can expect them to ask you to leave. It isn't unreasonable in busy places.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
They will ask you why you went missed. If you have a valid reason, you can get vectored for another approach. If you DON"T have a valid reason, you can expect them to ask you to leave. It isn't unreasonable in busy places.
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Or the vectors for your next approach will cover two states.
 
SkyHog said:
I'm not debating why they do it, I'm debating whether they can do it, and what happens if you fly a series of missed approaches instead of "practice approaches."
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Of course they can do it. I imagine after you miss the first one you'd be vectored to the end of the arrival stream for your second one. You'd probably choose to go somewhere else before actually getting another approach, however.
 
It's not in their airport remarks. Has anyone actually called Selfridge TRACON and asked? Because if they don't allow such approaches, they're about the only non-secure military base in the US that doesn't, and most encourage it.

Just don't try this at Groom Lake or Tonopah.
 
smigaldi said:
It is my understanding that non-cleared, non-flight plan, non-earth military traffic often lands at Groom lake. ;)
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Sorry -- Groom Lake is a long way from Roswell. Or did someone make a note in the interstellar A/FD that all Roswell-bound flights should divert to Groom Lake?
 
azure said:
...the only one that doesn't allow practice approaches is MTC (Selfridge).
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They were allowed when I was in charge of ATC at Selfridge. Of course, military aircraft had priority, but I can't imagine why they would have an outright prohibition.

The only other AF base I know of that prohibits civil practice approaches is Dobbins ARS near Atlanta, and that's due to restrictions by Atlanta TRACON.
 
Anyone who wants to do practice approaches at KDEN is just asking for trouble. Unless, of course, it's 3am. KAPA is open 24/7 and only a 15 min. flight from KDEN.

Can you say "Class B"?
 
All practice approaches at LAS have to be between midnight and 6am. At 6am the morning east coast arrivals start showing up.

LAS used to have the only ILS within 100miles. The military base close by does not allow practice ILS except maybe on a Sunday if there is no exercises going on, and you cannot receive the DME, so the safety pilot becomes the "visual DME".

Now that VGT has an ILS to Rwy 12L. The Class D tower does not accept ILS approaches if they are operating to the north, Rwy 30L/R.

Most IFR training around here is between 3-6am.
 
Ron Levy said:
Sorry -- Groom Lake is a long way from Roswell. Or did someone make a note in the interstellar A/FD that all Roswell-bound flights should divert to Groom Lake?
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Landings at Groom lake are reportedly happening all the time. A one time crash is what occurred at Roswell.
 
BillTIZ said:
LAS used to have the only ILS within 100miles. The military base close by does not allow practice ILS except maybe on a Sunday if there is no exercises going on, and you cannot receive the DME, so the safety pilot becomes the "visual DME".
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You can receive the Nellis DME by tuning your DME to 135.5. That's the frequency in parentheses on the enroute chart: http://skyvector.com/#55-407-2-6417-545

I would think that a bigger problem would be the fact that the chart has "NOT FOR CIVIL USE" printed on it.
 
Palmpilot said:
You can receive the Nellis DME by tuning your DME to 135.5. That's the frequency in parentheses on the enroute chart: http://skyvector.com/#55-407-2-6417-545

I would think that a bigger problem would be the fact that the chart has "NOT FOR CIVIL USE" printed on it.
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Look at the ILS Rwy 21L for Nellis, yes.. not for civil use and the DME is off the TACAN. If you can tune your "DME" to 135.5.. good luck, the Nellis TACAN is Ch 12. There is no VHF frequency pairing for Ch12. Most "Civil Nav receivers will only tune between 108 and 118, above that is VOICE.

We can get Nellis Approach to allow us to use the ILS approach in DAY VMC only for training. Need to acknowledge that DME is unuseable, if they are not busy they will provide radar calls at the DME points. It's been a while since I've tried to use that approach, they may no longer allow it.

You will also note that the LOC Rwy21 has the missed approach going to the LAS VORTAC, but that the DME on the LAS is not usable for holding and only "Nellis based aircraft" can use that approach.

Some of us still have the old "Civil" ILS to Rwy 21L in our stash. The DME is off the LAS VORTAC. But the hotel build up on the strip blocks the signal for the approach.
 
I was told tonight by my CFII after my IFR lesson that BFI doesn't do practice approaches. A missed approach at BFI goes into Sea-Tac class B. plenty of other places,& our military bases like to play with us GA. Not long ago I heard the controllers at Gray Army field were asking for pilots to make PAR's there.
 
SkyHog said:
Is this true? Can a controller refuse to allow you to fly an approach?
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Yes. And I've heard a controller deny a departure clearance in IMC conditions to a plane that wanted to go up for several practice approaches (at KERV, denial by Houston Center who was "too busy" - that plane had to taxi back to park.... don't know what happened, I departed for San Antonio around the same time).

Ron Levy said:
Just don't try this at Groom Lake or Tonopah.
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Or Belvoir these days.
 
Ddayle said:
I was told tonight by my CFII after my IFR lesson that BFI doesn't do practice approaches. A missed approach at BFI goes into Sea-Tac class B. plenty of other places,& our military bases like to play with us GA. Not long ago I heard the controllers at Gray Army field were asking for pilots to make PAR's there.
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They need to maintain their proficiency.. they are happy when GA pilots will help them out. You move a little slower and don't get off course as fast.

They need a certain number of approaches over a set time period to maintain certification.
 
Palmpilot said:
Oops, I overlooked that detail. :blush:

Makes me wonder what the 135.5 in parentheses is for.
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Voice communications or Hiwas broadcast.. but I could not confirm it.
I'll check with our local TERPS guy.
 
Ddayle said:
Not long ago I heard the controllers at Gray Army field were asking for pilots to make PAR's there.
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I've heard that, too. When things settle down around here and I get going with my CFII again we'll have to go try one or two. He probably knows the controllers as he just retired from the Army there (at least that was his plan) and was flying Chinooks.
 
I have on one occasion been cleared to a practice approach with the instructions to break off the approach at 1.5 miles, do not overfly the airport, say intentions... I never asked why the restriction <shrug> This was at Flint KFNT...


denny-o
 
Dr. O said:
I have on one occasion been cleared to a practice approach with the instructions to break off the approach at 1.5 miles, do not overfly the airport, say intentions... I never asked why the restriction <shrug> This was at Flint KFNT...
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Typically, you get this when you're flying opposite the direction of traffic (e.g., ILS 5 when 23 is active) or across traffic (e.g., ILS 32 when 23 is active and they have traffic in the left-hand pattern for 23).
 
Dr. O said:
I have on one occasion been cleared to a practice approach with the instructions to break off the approach at 1.5 miles, do not overfly the airport, say intentions... I never asked why the restriction <shrug> This was at Flint KFNT...


denny-o
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I've gotten that frequently at FNT. As Cap'n Ron says, it's often because of opposite direction or cross-traffic. When 9 or 27 is being used, practice approaches on 18 are broken off early because 9-27 crosses 18-36 near the approach end of 18.

Ditto for 27 and 18-36. When we started on ILS approaches I was trying to practice landing from DA and had a perfect one set up on 27, I was cleared to land, and then at the last moment Tower told me to go around. A freight dog was coming in on 18, and of course they're not going to send HIM around so poor li'l IR student me can do her bee-autiful landing. <sniff>
 
azure said:
I've gotten that frequently at FNT. As Cap'n Ron says, it's often because of opposite direction or cross-traffic. When 9 or 27 is being used, practice approaches on 18 are broken off early because 9-27 crosses 18-36 near the approach end of 18.

Ditto for 27 and 18-36. When we started on ILS approaches I was trying to practice landing from DA and had a perfect one set up on 27, I was cleared to land, and then at the last moment Tower told me to go around. A freight dog was coming in on 18, and of course they're not going to send HIM around so poor li'l IR student me can do her bee-autiful landing. <sniff>
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"Unable."

Then you wait for them to send the freight dog around, and then you say "Ok, now I can go around or land, which do you prefer?"
 
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