Law enforcement overreaction?

[flyersfan31]

You are correct, Adam. My problem is that my experience with cops has been more in line with Tim's friend's comment:



There are good ones and there are bad ones, just like in any profession. The problem is that in a lot of cases, stereotypes exist for reasons. I've come across some cops who do their profession justice, even when they cite me for speeding (I can't argue on that ticket when I get pulled over for 98 in a 65). However the vast majority of cops I come across yell at me and treat me like a criminal just for asking the time of day. It's that sort of treatment that causes the negative impression that I have of them. It will change when I feel I can actually trust police as a law abiding citizen (which I should be able to) rather than fear them.

I find it curious that the style these days is for cops to feature a military-style 'doo. Notice that? It goes to attitude. Kent McCord didn't have one, and he stopped plenty of bad guys.

 

[wbarnhill]

It's all in the attitude. I've found police officers who went into the profession to make a difference and help people. I've also found folks who went into the profession to quote "bust some balls" and "when I'm off duty, I can tear around town in my car".

I just wish the bad apples got weeded out before things like this happen. Now like I said, at least she didn't shoot an innocent person or anything, and maybe she just had a bad night, and this was the culmination, but she needs to, at the very least, be put at a desk for a while.

 

[tdager]

Totally unemotional breakdown of the facts:

1) Officer observes a vehicle make a lane change with a turn signal and initiates a stop (I am assuming this is a legal stop) - time hack ~ 23:55:20

2) Vehicles starts to pull over but then does not, continues driving though not at a high-rate of speed (note, not all chases/fleeing suspects occur at high speeds, many just drive the speed limit)

3) Vehicle finally exits the interstate and looks like it is going to pull over, though at this time the officer is not sure and initiates a PIT maneuver. Time hack - 23:56:51

So for almost a minute and a half after the lights were turned on the driver continued driving, passing places he could have pulled over. Coupled with it being New Years Eve and the historic evidence of the increase of drunken driving on that night it is reasonable for the officer to conclude that she is "chasing" a drunk driver.

Sorry but the Barney Fife/Kent McCord days are long past. We live in a different world and a different time. Pull over, say "yes sir, no ma'am" as appropriate, be polite and submissive. NOT because I think cops are superior, but because the side of the road is NOT the place to "argue your case".

If the guy had simply pulled over as best as he could on the Interstate this never would have happened.

 

[flyersfan31]

If the guy had simply pulled over as best as he could on the Interstate this never would have happened.

But that's just it. The shoulder wasn't plowed well and he was worried about stopping on a busy Interstate (on New Year's Eve) with a minivan full of kids.

 

[jsbougher]

If you're as appalled by Officer Rindal's behavior as I am, I'd suggest you provider her superior officers your feedback and copy her. I feel strongly that you should be respectful because our Officers are putting their lives on the line every day. That said, the bad apple's need to be taken out of the barrel for the good of the many hard working, honest and dedicated officers out there. It takes 5 minutes to write the e-mail, lets put the pressure on the Governor and State Patrol Chief to address this reckless behavior aggressively.

MN Governor Tim Pawlenty - tim.pawlenty@state.mn.us
MN State Patrol Chief Mark Dunaski - Mark.Dunaski@state.mn.us
MN State Patrol Asst Chief Kevin Daly - Kevin.Daly@state.mn.us
Officer Carrie Rindal - Carrie.Rindal@state.mn.us

 

[tdager]

But that's just it. The shoulder wasn't plowed well and he was worried about stopping on a busy Interstate (on New Year's Eve) with a minivan full of kids.

I would argue that at midnight on New Years Even the interstate is not that busy and the patrol car provides a buffer/barricade to traffic.

Again...not defending anyone but trying to take emotion out of the equation. NO decision is worth a damn when made emotionally.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

So for almost a minute and a half after the lights were turned on the driver continued driving, passing places he could have pulled over. ...

90 seconds? How long are you allowed? 60 seconds? 30 seconds? 10 seconds? 5 seconds? How many places did he pass? Any?

Raming the guy as he is almost stopped? How does moving over to the edge of the road with the brakes applied look like "running"?

 

[gkainz]

In my opinion, ramming my car in that situation would have been provocation for me to jump out to see "what the hell just happened?" and would have overridden my normal response to "remain in the car with hands on the wheel"

 

[SteveinIndy]

I have never pulled over in a place where I felt that I would either block traffic, nor where I felt unsafe. The officers have always approved of my decisions, and seemed to appreciate my concern for THEIR safety.

I guess you will find a few idiots in every profession, but I wouldn't let those idiots be the basis for deciding how to interact with the rest of the profession.

A couple of them work around here....I ran into one the other day. Nothing worse than a power-tripping police officer....

 

[Greebo]

A couple of them work around here....I ran into one the other day. Nothing worse than a power-tripping police officer....

I think if you run into a police officer, they have a right to be a bit upset.

 

[Bob Noel]

except power-tripping politicians (>-{

 

[LearDriver]

except power-tripping politicians (>-{

The politicians that seem to be the worst that you have to watch out for are the power-tripping and tax dodging politicians.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

What we really need in this country right now is MORE unemployed politicians <g>

Best,

Dave

 

[AdamZ]

But that's just it. The shoulder wasn't plowed well and he was worried about stopping on a busy Interstate (on New Year's Eve) with a minivan full of kids.

And who the hell uses a blinker when trying to flee and elude?

 

[AdamZ]

You're right, of course, Adam. As an attorney friend of mine always says:

"95% of the attorneys ruin the reputation of the 5% who are ethical"

LOL we had a joke about one local PD and the folks they arrested

80% of the time the guy was guilty and 90% of the time the cops lied about what he did.

 

[flyersfan31]

I would argue that at midnight on New Years Even the interstate is not that busy and the patrol car provides a buffer/barricade to traffic.

Again...not defending anyone but trying to take emotion out of the equation. NO decision is worth a damn when made emotionally.

I was going off what I saw on the tape. There was a decent amount of traffic out there. Heck it's for her protection as well! How many cops have been nailed on the shoulder of the road. That one isn't plowed, she can't pull off onto the berm, she's at risk too. She should be getting out and thanking the guy, not putting a loaded gun to his head.

 

[gismo]

Totally unemotional breakdown of the facts:

1) Officer observes a vehicle make a lane change with a turn signal and initiates a stop (I am assuming this is a legal stop) - time hack ~ 23:55:20

2) Vehicles starts to pull over but then does not, continues driving though not at a high-rate of speed (note, not all chases/fleeing suspects occur at high speeds, many just drive the speed limit)

3) Vehicle finally exits the interstate and looks like it is going to pull over, though at this time the officer is not sure and initiates a PIT maneuver. Time hack - 23:56:51

So for almost a minute and a half after the lights were turned on the driver continued driving, passing places he could have pulled over. Coupled with it being New Years Eve and the historic evidence of the increase of drunken driving on that night it is reasonable for the officer to conclude that she is "chasing" a drunk driver.

A "drunk driver" who's controlling his vehicle almost perfectly? No weaving, no erratic speeds etc.

Sorry but the Barney Fife/Kent McCord days are long past. We live in a different world and a different time. Pull over, say "yes sir, no ma'am" as appropriate, be polite and submissive. NOT because I think cops are superior, but because the side of the road is NOT the place to "argue your case".

I gotta agree that there's nothing to be gained by arguing with a LEO but I'm certain that in this guy's mind he was doing his best to comply safely. Had the officer gotten on her PA and told him to "pull over right here" I suspect he would have done so but baring that I think it was reasonable for him to assume that it was OK to continue for a minute or two in order to stop in a safe place.

If the guy had simply pulled over as best as he could on the Interstate this never would have happened.

So? If the officer had simply waited another 5 seconds until he stopped "this never would have happened" either. Had she pulled in behind him after he stopped without ramming his van it "never would have happened". 90 seconds of slow but safe driving shouldn't be an excuse for her to blow her top.

I can understand the part where she drew her weapon but IMO it shouldn't have escalated from there either, she could have defused the whole thing if she weren't so pumped up about not being in total control of the stop.

 

[KennyFlys]

If the guy had simply pulled over as best as he could on the Interstate this never would have happened.

Given how many cases there have been around Georgia alone the last few years with fake cops pulling over cars, a couple even raping women... are you going to stick with that hard line? Sorry, Tom. That's a bit too much.

I see no problem with the guy pulling off on a safe and much slower area such as certainly off the interstate. How many accidents have taken place while cars have been pulled off on the interstate shoulder? Enough to cause concern for a few.

The cop acted too quickly. If the van sped up... maybe. But, it didn't. That cop needs to go.

 

[gprellwitz]

Given how many cases there have been around Georgia alone the last few years with fake cops pulling over cars, a couple even raping women... are you going to stick with that hard line? Sorry, Tom. That's a bit too much.

I see no problem with the guy pulling off on a safe and much slower area such as certainly off the interstate. How many accidents have taken place while cars have been pulled off on the interstate shoulder? Enough to cause concern for a few.

The cop acted too quickly. If the van sped up... maybe. But, it didn't. That cop needs to go.

Actually, he shouldn't have tried to guess where the cop thought it might have been safe to stop. He should have stopped right there, in the middle of the interstate. If he doesn't have the latitude to decide where a safe shoulder would be, what on earth makes him think that he has the right to decide he has the right to actually pull off the expressway onto the shoulder at all. I mean, the TEMERITY of that man! Totally out of control, and without respect for the law! He deserved everything he got. In fact, it's his lucky day that she didn't decide to pop a cap in his arse, because he obviously deserved it!

 

[captvikki]

In the few times I have been pulled over, I have found that women officers are more sensitive to how things are done. (Read B**ch). My favorite was at an Air Force Base in the middle of Arizona in Gila-Bend. The ONLY thing on the base were jumpers from the Air Force Academy. Myself and my three sons were regulars during the week. We would come in and wash our clothes every other day. I was on a first name basis with most of the cops. One morning there was a new woman I had not seen before. I had my pass hanging from my rear vision mirror. I pointed to it, but she did not see it, so I took it down and waved it at her. After we passed. She got in her truck (not a police vehicle). Followed me to my destination and proceeded to chew me out (two inches from my face) in front of my kids. If she did not have another officer with her, I am convinced she would have drawn a gun. I politely apologized for not showing the "proper respect" and we were done. I was a bit shaken up but learned a valuable lesson. Don't ever screw with women police officers.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Ah well if she loses her job I bet she could get a job with the FAA enforcement division - she would fit right in!

Flew passengers and 5 days out of currency? (screaming) Down on the ground! Hands behind you!

Made an incorrect entry in your logbook? (screaming, gun pointed at accused's head) Get out of the airplane! Hands where I can see them!

Flew airplane to shop for friend but no comm certif., did not pay for share of gas? (screaming at platoon of like minded FAA-enforcers with automatic weapons) Aim for his head! Dead or alive, just don't let him get away!!

 

[gismo]

In the few times I have been pulled over, I have found that women officers are more sensitive to how things are done. (Read B**ch).

I can only recall two times I was stopped by a female officer and my experiences are mixed. One was in Wisconsin where I was pulling a boat/trailer with a mini-motorhome that looked like an overgrown van. I was on I-94 tooling along about 3 mph over the speed limit when I noticed some blue flashing lights behind me. I pulled off the road and the woman came up towards my door with gun drawn shouting at me to get out of the vehicle with my hands on my head. This was rather difficult to comply with as hands were needed on the door to open it and to manage the large step down to the pavement but I did the best I could without falling down. I never did figure out what all the fuss was about but she appeared to be mostly concerned that there was no plate visible on the trailer (it had been bent when the trailer was parked) which really made no sense because plates weren't required on trailers in Wisconsin at the time (my trailer and van were registered in MN where trailer plates were required). She eventually calmed down although she did keep one hand on her holstered weapon once she put it away after I showed her that there was indeed a plate and I had the cab cards for the van and trailer.

The other involved me getting pulled over in a suburban downtown area at night. This officer asked if I knew how fast I was going and my reply was "I have no idea". She said she had clocked me at 42 in a 30 mph zone but since I was honest she'd let me go with a warning. That whole exchange was as pleasant as could be.

 

[timwinters]

As a general statement (and, yes, I know that general statements are dangerous)...

I think LEOs are more courteous and lenient when dealing with members of the opposite sex.

I'm also confident that this leniency is far more prevalent with male LEOs than female LEO's because, after all, we males are all dogs!

 

[wsuffa]

This will cost the agency a lot of money to fix. This cop will be lucky if she doesn't do time when it is all said and done.

Nothing will happen.

See the PG County Maryland case (thread elsewhere) where the dogs were shot.

As police have become more paramilitary, the more of these incidents will happen. At least until there is some accountability.

Don't get me wrong - there are a LOT of very good cops (including a few here), but there are also a number of bad ones. Unfortunately, accountability is limited, especially if the officer claims that there was a threat.

 

[alaskaflyer]

And who the hell uses a blinker when trying to flee and elude?

Many, many people. It is a standing joke actually. Amazing what your brain does when you are either drunk or under stress. Drunk AND under stress? Foggettabout it!
I've had fools stop at crosswalks before resuming their flight.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Nothing will happen.

See the PG County Maryland case (thread elsewhere) where the dogs were shot.

As police have become more paramilitary, the more of these incidents will happen. At least until there is some accountability.

Don't get me wrong - there are a LOT of very good cops (including a few here), but there are also a number of bad ones. Unfortunately, accountability is limited, especially if the officer claims that there was a threat.

So, thirty years ago what might have happened instead? I submit that about the same thing would have happened, without catchy little slogans like 'PIT'. Oh, yeah, reporters would have yawned.

 

[wsuffa]

So, thirty years ago what might have happened instead? I submit that about the same thing would have happened, without catchy little slogans like 'PIT'. Oh, yeah, reporters would have yawned.

For which case? For the "dog-shot" case, I submit it would have not gone down nearly the same way. Swat teams were not used as a matter of course back then.

The "car-ram" case? You're probably right. 30 years ago there were cops known to bust out tail lights as a way to write a ticket.

 

[jpflys]

I think Officer tough guy should have turned down the radio and used her PA to tell him to "stop and pull over NOW" if that was what she meant. Send her off for some common sense training and get her back on the job. PS: Next have a legitimate reason to pull someone over !

 

[gprellwitz]

I think Officer Dike should have turned down the radio and used her PA to tell him to "stop and pull over NOW" if that was what she meant. Send her off for some feminiity training and get her back on the job. PS: Next have a legitimate reason to pull someone over !

While I agree that she should have used the PA, and found her actions reprehensible, I find your term for her, as well as the suggestion that she get "feminiity (sic) training" offensive, even if it is offered with a smilie.

 

[timwinters]

While I agree that she should have used the PA, and found her actions reprehensible, I find your term for her, as well as the suggestion that she get "feminiity (sic) training" offensive, even if it is offered with a smilie.

and +1

 

[LearDriver]

While I agree that she should have used the PA, and found her actions reprehensible, I find your term for her, as well as the suggestion that she get "feminiity (sic) training" offensive, even if it is offered with a smilie.

Out of curiosity what did you find more offensive, the posters negative term for the officer or the fact that there is one more cop out there that made it past the psych tests and is out there with a gun when she obviously shouldn't be?

 

[gprellwitz]

Out of curiosity what did you find more offensive, the posters negative term for the officer or the fact that there is one more cop out there that made it past the psych tests and is out there with a gun when she obviously shouldn't be?

Well, the poster made the statement directly to a group of which I consider myself to be a part, therefore I felt obligated to respond directly. The poster appeared to be making an unwarranted correlation between either the person's demeanor or sexuality and their quality as a person that I felt unwarranted and offensive. I believe that I'm already on record as finding the Officer's actions deplorable ("found her actions reprehensible"). That irrespective and independent of her sexual orientation.

There are good cops and there are bad cops, just like in any other group of people, probably including saints! Heck, I'm from the Chicago area, where we consider the Police to be the City's largest gang! We had Burge et al: http://www.law.uchicago.edu/futterman-police-corruption/index.html
http://www.ethicsinstitute.com/pdf/Drug Corruption Report.pdf
http://www.ipsn.org/police_corruption/fbi_pr_police_drug_arrests.htm)

On the other hand, there are many fine officers, including some on this board, whom I consider to be fine people! The news media being what it is, you don't find as many stories about them.

 

[SkyHog]

On the other hand, there are many fine officers, including some on this board, whom I consider to be fine people! The news media being what it is, you don't find as many stories about them.

In all fairness, I don't always get praise when I do my job properly either, but when I screw up, I hear about it. Its the nature of jobs.

The difference being that when a police officer screws up, their bosses tend to defend them blindly, where my boss will hold me accountable.

I respect the hell outta police officers, not only because I must, but because they do have the potential to save lives every day. But we are giving them too much power without accountability, and that's never a good thing.

 

[alaskaflyer]

PS: Next have a legitimate reason to pull someone over !

Maybe I read the article wrong but wasn't the driver speeding?

IF you are going 56 in a 55, I have a legitimate reason to stop you. Note I'm not addressing the rest of the stop here, but there seems to be some perception that the speed limit "buffer zone" that many people rely on is somehow codified in law

 

[gismo]

Maybe I read the article wrong but wasn't the driver speeding?

IF you are going 56 in a 55, I have a legitimate reason to stop you. Note I'm not addressing the rest of the stop here, but there seems to be some perception that the speed limit "buffer zone" that many people rely on is somehow codified in law

I think there may be an issue if the car is truly just moving with other traffic. In any case, it's extremely unusual to get apprehended for 65 in a 55 zone on the freeway when the conditions are dry pavement and the driver wasn't doing anything else unsafe.

 

[flyersfan31]

Maybe I read the article wrong but wasn't the driver speeding?

IF you are going 56 in a 55, I have a legitimate reason to stop you. Note I'm not addressing the rest of the stop here, but there seems to be some perception that the speed limit "buffer zone" that many people rely on is somehow codified in law

Legitimate, but don't you have better things to do??

 

[gprellwitz]

Maybe I read the article wrong but wasn't the driver speeding?

IF you are going 56 in a 55, I have a legitimate reason to stop you. Note I'm not addressing the rest of the stop here, but there seems to be some perception that the speed limit "buffer zone" that many people rely on is somehow codified in law

Legally defensible and proper? Yes. Legitimate, barring other factors? Not so much so, IMHO. It would beg the question of whether you routinely stopped every, or even many cars you saw going 1mph over the limit, and what they had in common. Did you randomly select them? Where they all driven by blondes, old white men, hispanics, blacks, etc.? Did something come up when you ran the plates? As you said, there has come to be an expectation that there is a buffer zone, and that expectation isn't without cause. Therefore, there must be some factor that caused you to select that particular vehicle for a stop.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Legitimate, but don't you have better things to do??

Not if I am looking for a DUI driver, or a drug runner...both reasons why law enforcement commonly stop people who may only be going a couple of miles over the speed limit. Pretextual? Yep. So what?

That aside, I wanted to dispel the assertion that it is somehow not "legitimate." If you don't want a ticket, drive 55 not 56 (as an example.)

 

[alaskaflyer]

As you said, there has come to be an expectation that there is a buffer zone, and that expectation isn't without cause. Therefore, there must be some factor that caused you to select that particular vehicle for a stop.

In the court of opinion, perhaps. Not so much in a court of law, assuming that you can prove the violation using accurate means.

 

[gprellwitz]

As you said, there has come to be an expectation that there is a buffer zone, and that expectation isn't without cause. Therefore, there must be some factor that caused you to select that particular vehicle for a stop.

In the court of opinion, perhaps. Not so much in a court of law, assuming that you can prove the violation using accurate means.

I already allowed that it was legal (though I suppose I should have thrown in an exception in case it was really racial profiling). And didn't you acknowledge that there was some other factor that caused you to select the car when you said

Not if I am looking for a DUI driver, or a drug runner...both reasons why law enforcement commonly stop people who may only be going a couple of miles over the speed limit. Pretextual? Yep. So what?