Upgrading to a better aircraft a bad thing?

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DMD3.

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DMD3.
According to some of the responses in this particular thread about purchasing a Grumman Cheetah vs. Tiger, buying the slower & less powered airplane now and upgrading to the faster airplane later is a bad idea and should be avoided.

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...-buy-a-cheetah-or-hold-out-for-a-tiger.65819/

In my case, I’ve considered buying something like a C150 or Tomahawk, fly it for 2 or 3 years and get a taste of what aircraft ownership is like. And without spending horrendous money on upgrading avionics or cosmetics, I’d sell it for hopefully around the same price I purchased it. If I can’t afford to operate/maintain/insure an airplane that is cheap in both purchase price and in maintenance/lower fuel burn, I don’t have any business considering owning a Archer, Tiger, or RV 6. Would this be a bad idea? I realize I need to watch out for expensive repairs such as the engine passing TBO or some other A/D (purchasing for $25k and then discovering a $30k repair in order to maintain airworthiness would be a total drag).

I only gross between $40k and $50k per year, depending on how much overtime I earn, so I’m not super wealthy. I’d rather buy the cheaper (in purchase price as well as maintenance) slower airplane that I can afford than buy the pricier, faster airplane and find that I can’t afford it. Has anyone else done this?
 
You show a great deal of common sense and economic realism. My parents taught me to always buy less than I can afford, e g the house, the car, etc. That way when things go south, I’m not in over my head - at least not too much. You will find the smaller, slower airplane just as much fun as something faster. I’ve got a cherokee. Would I like something faster? Sure, most of us would but I can afford the cherokee without any (much?) pain.

A good prebuy will help alleviate the worries about an overhaul,or other expenses. Get some one very knowledgeable to review all the log books, too.
 
There’s a complexity curve where the more sophisticated or capable the aircraft, the more “exponential” the cost (using the word exponential in a qualitative way, not quantitative, just to illustrate). I’m not sure the leap from 150 to Archer is very big.

You are smart though, considering the cost differences at your income level. Fuel burn, insurance, maint will be a bit higher; Hangar/tie-down will be the same.

Taking a small bite (C150) might be the safe and sane way to go about it. “Buy your last plane now” is not sound advice at this point, it sounds like. Rules of thumb don’t always apply to all people in all circumstances.

Just make a sound purchase. And put up a pic here when you’re done.
 
I have. When I was an underpaid bomber pilot (there's a dissertation to be made about paying the E-5 at the gate more than the guy tasked to react to an EAM when the Ruskies get froggy...but I digress), I made the same you make, and eventually purchased a C-150. It was a good introduction to aircraft ownership, though I didn't own it long enough to put any real mx money on it.

I didn't do it because I believed the mx costs were that much cheaper than the airplane that's collecting dust in my hangar these days, but simply because I couldn't afford to outright buy (I don't finance toys) something more expensive at the time. The 150 would have equally eaten me out of house and home if it had needed an engine rebuilt, especially in today's inflationary environment. Of course I wouldn't have done that considering what I paid for it, I would have just salvaged it and walked away. My point to you is that, given the airplanes you've listed, there's no significant delta in mx costs between them. Buy the one that you can capital-afford that meets your baseline requirements.

I won't recommend RVs since I'm looking for one and don't need more competition. Cheers! :D
 
DMD3. said:
I only gross between $40k and $50k per year, depending on how much overtime I earn, so I’m not super wealthy. I’d rather buy the cheaper (in purchase price as well as maintenance) slower airplane that I can afford than buy the pricier, faster airplane and find that I can’t afford it. Has anyone else done this?
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I spent $20K on a rag and tube E-AB aircraft, do all my own maintenance ('cept for the condition inspection each year), burn 4-5 gallons per hour of auto fuel from the corner gas station... But it ain't fast. Does that qualify?

Some things, like engine parts, are pricey... Some things, you can trade labor for cost (fabricating a new fuel tank). Some things require special tools (getting inside a Rotax). Hangar and insurance are not what you may consider to be low cost.

All in all, unless you fly a lot, it's less expensive to rent than buy, and there is much less risk of getting in over your head. On the other hand, the marginal cost to go for a ride is lower if you own.

Have you considered flying clubs?
 
DMD3. said:
WDD said:
Renting and flying club renting might be a less financially risky option.
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True, but they say that the hype of owning your own airplane is very real.
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The club I was in was great in terms of low cost and predictability. I took a step down in capability when I got my own plane, and it costs more/is more variable, but it's mine, and it's worth it.

I recently entered my fifth year of ownership... Low acquisition cost doesn't mean that you won't spend a horrendous amount on upgrades and/or repairs; maybe even worse since it will be a larger as fraction of the purchase price. I'm also not convinced that TCO is all that different between a 2 seater and a 4 seater when it comes to your standard issue fixed pitch/fixed gear spam can; AFAICT, steady state, at the end of the day it's going to be 5-10k/year. At the low end, fixed costs take a proportionally larger bite.

A general life rule of mine is not to buy the cheapest anything, or the best anything; max bang/buck is usually somewhere in the middle...
 
My first plane was a trauma hawk...my current plane, in "trauma hawk dollars", is worth about 15x what a trauma hawk now costs....so yeah, I upgraded a couple of times.

Oh, and the pros / cons of the one way or the other as I see it:

Buying your last plane first (as they say): saves money in the long run, then you can use the money saved for upgrades, etc, if you'd like.

vs

Buying, then selling and upgrading: you get to own more than one plane (albeit not at the same time, but you can end up with some really cool pictures on your wall of your planes through the years...I've owned 6).

But in the end, who cares what others think is "the right way" to buy/own/upgrade?
 
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DMD3. said:
True, but they say that the hype of owning your own airplane is very real.
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Im like a teenage girl with my planes….. first, I’m excited. Then I get the bills and I’m sad. Then I go have fun and I’m excited. Then the taxes and annual is due and I’m sad. Then I get out of annual and I’m really happy. Then something like a gear pump breaks and I’m sad. I fix that and no sooner do I fly it for the first time again and the insurance bills sneaks up on me and I’m sad.

I can go from “pry it from my cold, dead hands” to “ sell this MuthaFer now!” In the span of a days time. It’s best to think about it like a heroin habit. The high is worth it till the bills show up.
 
I failed to mention that if I were to own, I’d tie down on the ramp vs. paying for a hangar, though I’d be sure to cover it.
 
DMD3. said:
I failed to mention that if I were to own, I’d tie down on the ramp vs. paying for a hangar, though I’d be sure to cover it.
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Your choice, but my A&P always says, "Everyone pays for a hangar, whether you have a hangar or not." He means that outside planes "suffer the elements" and cause extra maintenance, etc, costing sometimes as much or more than being hangared. Partially depends on where it's parked, but I agree with my mechanic.
 
I make about the same as you, and joined a club (One plane, 10 shares) that's affordable. Rarely any conflicts in scheduling, and the members all have a good philosophy about maintaining the aircraft. Very economical introduction into ownership. And pooling resources makes the hangar, insurance and maintenance costs reasonable. There so many stupid little things that happen to a plane that would have bankrupt me if I owned it all alone! My biggest flying expense has been and definitely will be, fuel. I have a second job that takes up a few hours a week to fund my flying habit (50-100 hours per year) so I don't dig into my family's budget.
 
I upgraded over the years. Started with a rag and tube LSA, then an Ercoupe, then a Cessna 150 and now a Cherokee. I sold each plane for more than I bought them for and other than the Ercoupe, none of them cost me any major unexpected MX $. My final plane goal is a Cherokee 6/Lance or something similar. I’m probably about 5 years away from it. One thing to consider is how your income changes over the years. When I bought my first plane, I had a similar income as you do and surely would be in over my head even with something like a Cherokee. Now, I’m making more than double what I did back then and I expect that to increase even further by the time I upgrade again.
 
A young co-worker/friend recently (3 years ago) bought a C150 to get his PPL. He was in a long-term "partnership" with his dad to build a 4 place experimental but that was taking years and even when complete it probably would not have been the best trainer. My friend loved his C150. Got his license in less than 6 months and then flew it another year and half then sold it. He made a little money on the deal and was very happy with the whole thing.
 
DMD3. said:
I failed to mention that if I were to own, I’d tie down on the ramp vs. paying for a hangar, though I’d be sure to cover it.
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Don't buy anything nice then. ****y paint, ****y interior, crappy windows all sounds like what you want. After all, why take a nice plane and turn it into a POS? That's basically what you are saying you are going to do.
 
Not all planes on the ramp are a POS, and a hangar here costs as much as my plane payment did.
 
Unit74 said:
Don't buy anything nice then. ****y paint, ****y interior, crappy windows all sounds like what you want. After all, why take a nice plane and turn it into a POS? That's basically what you are saying you are going to do.
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200.gif


Ruh roh, somebody's projecting the frustrations with their ownership costs onto us cosmetic-agnostics. :D
 
DMD3. said:
I failed to mention that if I were to own, I’d tie down on the ramp vs. paying for a hangar, though I’d be sure to cover it.
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For 2200/yr I'll take the hangar over the plane being covered in bird **** every time I go out. Plus, where do you keep the oil and filters for oil changes? The extra headsets? Stuff that goes in the plane, but doesn't always need to be in the plane, etc..?
 
EdFred said:
For 2200/yr I'll take the hangar over the plane being covered in bird **** every time I go out. Plus, where do you keep the oil and filters for oil changes? The extra headsets? Stuff that goes in the plane, but doesn't always need to be in the plane, etc..?
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That's pretty affordable hangaring. Congrats. :thumbsup:
 
hindsight2020 said:
That's pretty affordable hangaring. Congrats. :thumbsup:
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I'm under that (slightly). 45x30 t-hangar, electric door and winch, insulated, electric included. And I now hangar at a big city Class C no less! The benefits of living in "Roger and Me" (economically-depressed GM layoff) country.
 
Country Flier said:
I'm under that (slightly). 45x30 t-hangar, electric door and winch, insulated, electric included. And I now hangar at a big city Class C no less! The benefits of living in "Roger and Me" (economically-depressed GM layoff) country.
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I'm guessing N of DTW and S of MBS
 
EdFred said:
Plus, where do you keep the oil and filters for oil changes? The extra headsets? Stuff that goes in the plane, but doesn't always need to be in the plane, etc..?
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In the lockable tote by the plane, right next to the lawnmower...
 
EdFred said:
The benefits of living in "**** you country"
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Indeed. Keep internet connectivity slow out there, lest the overpaid WFH crowd come in and eff that COL up for y'all. They've been wrecking secondary markets and exurban areas like you read about. Slow internet is the kryptonite of the affluent coastal hordes.

Country Flier said:
I'm under that (slightly). 45x30 t-hangar, electric door and winch, insulated, electric included. And I now hangar at a big city Class C no less! The benefits of living in "Roger and Me" (GM layoff) country.
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I'm legitimately surprised to hear your costs are that low in an urban setting in Michigan. That state is no Sunbelt overcrowded diaspora destination, but I didn't think it was that economically depressed.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Ruh roh, somebody's projecting the frustrations with their ownership costs onto us cosmetic-agnostics. :D
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Not even close. If we can't have pointed, candid convos with people, we are the cause of the pussification of America being seen currently. People simply cannot handle being spoken to without cupping their bawls, and tickling their ear these days. I blame Twitter, Facespace, Instagarbage and tikTak mostly.

Noting he makes less than half of the poverty rate in some states, I also don't think he has any business buying an airplane. One cylinder goes bad and he has no means to fix it. Running rough numbers based on life expenses, he has no discretionary funds short of a Monster Energy and a KitKat bar. The idea of buying a plane with literally no means to pay for it lends itself in this thread to his day dreaming and the psychological associate that having the convo affords him the momentary luxury of being part of the round table. Kinda like when I was given free tickets to the Concourse de Elangance with clubhouse privs. My annual pay was weekend money to most of my co-attendees. But I sure felt like part of the crowd for a brief time. I even wore my best jeans and button down K-Mart shirt to fit in.
 
hindsight2020 said:
I'm legitimately surprised to hear your costs are that low in an urban setting in Michigan. That state is no Sunbelt overcrowded diaspora destination, but I didn't think it was that economically depressed.
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I recently moved from a more in-the-country hangar to the Flint Bishop hangar, and I was surprised at the price too. When I got in here, more than one fellow hangar neighbor jokingly shushed me and said, "The prices here are a secret." So maybe economics just haven't caught up with us yet...the hangars are better here than my in-the-country hangar, but for the same price.
 
Country Flier said:
I recently moved from a more in-the-country hangar to the Flint Bishop hangar, and I was surprised at the price too. When I got in here, more than one fellow hangar neighbor jokingly shushed me and said, "The prices here are a secret." So maybe economics just haven't caught up with us yet...the hangars are better here than my in-the-country hangar, but for the same price.
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Over here at GRR, the prices last time I looked were more than double, they were gravel floor, no electric, and then of course you have to deal with the security crap.
 
Unit74 said:
Not even close. If we can't have pointed, candid convos with people, we are the cause of the pussification of America being seen currently. People simply cannot handle being spoken to without cupping their bawls, and tickling their ear these days. I blame Twitter, Facespace, Instagarbage and tikTak mostly.

Noting he makes less than half of the poverty rate in some states, I also don't think he has any business buying an airplane. One cylinder goes bad and he has no means to fix it. Running rough numbers based on life expenses, he has no discretionary funds short of a Monster Energy and a KitKat bar. The idea of buying a plane with literally no means to pay for it lends itself in this thread to his day dreaming and the psychological associate that having the convo affords him the momentary luxury of being part of the round table. Kinda like when I was given free tickets to the Concourse de Elangance with clubhouse privs. My annual pay was weekend money to most of my co-attendees. But I sure felt like part of the crowd for a brief time. I even wore my best jeans and button down K-Mart shirt to fit in.
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Your opinion about the OP's supposed imprudence in wanting to own an airplane as a 50K/yr earner is noted. Though I did it myself with little ill effect as a sole owner, that wasn't the point I was trying to debate. My point was that I think you presume too much when indexing your opinion of airworthiness to cosmetics, even if by proxy.

Hangaring is just not a requirement for mechanical airworthy outcomes. Furthermore, "pride in ownership" or lack thereof is not an objective reflection of an owner's approach to airworthiness. It's just a lazy fallacy to latch arguments about maintenance dereliction onto. The same lazy fallacy that I get at work when a nonner questions my proficiency or maturity in the conduct of my primary job (and by proxy, my pay), by the existence of blemishes in my uniform appearance. It simply does not follow, but it's an easy fallacy to make. That was all I was getting at.
 
EdFred said:
For 2200/yr I'll take the hangar over the plane being covered in bird **** every time I go out. Plus, where do you keep the oil and filters for oil changes? The extra headsets? Stuff that goes in the plane, but doesn't always need to be in the plane, etc..?
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$2,200 won't even get you tie down space where I live lol. I'm in a medium sized city at the main airport. Hangar space is $950 per month and outdoor tie down is $300 per month. The FBO is nice enough to tug me into their hangar during storms. I could move the plane out to a small country airport where hangar space is $500 per month. Still a lot, but better than in the city. Problem with it is, it would add 30 minutes to my drive to get to the airport, I would fly out of a grass/gravel strip (no fun and would cancel a few flights due to bad ground conditions that would have otherwise been perfectly fine on paved runways) and waiting lists are like six months long. Long story short, some of us simply don't have the luxury of reasonably priced hangar space and we do as best as we can to keep the plane in good shape while parked outside.
 
Around here it’s hard to get hanger space at any price. I put my name on a waiting list 2 years ago. In 3 more years I might get one they say. They are building new hangers at an airport 30 min away.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
...Long story short, some of us simply don't have the luxury of reasonably priced hangar space and we do as best as we can to keep the plane in good shape while parked outside.
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Exactly. I learned to fly at 16, in a Citabria I bought with my brother. We parked it outside on a gravel tiedown in Soldotna, Alaska. 99% of the local hangars at that time were used for aircraft maintenance, not storage. I was based there from 1977 through 2010, owning 8 aircraft including a beautiful C185 and a fairly nice C310. None of them were POS's. We looked at hangaring several times, but it was always at least 3 or 4 times our annual maintenance budget and we just didn't do it. I live in a small town in the Rocky Mountains now and I have a hangar. It is great, but I would keep flying even if I had to tie my RV down outside.

I flew DC3's for a small cargo outfit in Alaska for a few years. They tied down outside and did 98% of their maintenance outside as well. :)
 
Unit74 said:
Not even close. If we can't have pointed, candid convos with people, we are the cause of the pussification of America being seen currently. People simply cannot handle being spoken to without cupping their bawls, and tickling their ear these days. I blame Twitter, Facespace, Instagarbage and tikTak mostly.

Noting he makes less than half of the poverty rate in some states, I also don't think he has any business buying an airplane. One cylinder goes bad and he has no means to fix it. Running rough numbers based on life expenses, he has no discretionary funds short of a Monster Energy and a KitKat bar. The idea of buying a plane with literally no means to pay for it lends itself in this thread to his day dreaming and the psychological associate that having the convo affords him the momentary luxury of being part of the round table. Kinda like when I was given free tickets to the Concourse de Elangance with clubhouse privs. My annual pay was weekend money to most of my co-attendees. But I sure felt like part of the crowd for a brief time. I even wore my best jeans and button down K-Mart shirt to fit in.
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So the poverty rate is 100K now in some states? Glad I don't live there!
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
$2,200 won't even get you tie down space where I live lol. I'm in a medium sized city at the main airport. Hangar space is $950 per month and outdoor tie down is $300 per month. The FBO is nice enough to tug me into their hangar during storms. I could move the plane out to a small country airport where hangar space is $500 per month. Still a lot, but better than in the city. Problem with it is, it would add 30 minutes to my drive to get to the airport, I would fly out of a grass/gravel strip (no fun and would cancel a few flights due to bad ground conditions that would have otherwise been perfectly fine on paved runways) and waiting lists are like six months long. Long story short, some of us simply don't have the luxury of reasonably priced hangar space and we do as best as we can to keep the plane in good shape while parked outside.
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Location, location, location. And I'm not even in the cheapest hangars in the area.

I bet houses cost more and taxes are higher than where I am as well.
 
EdFred said:
For 2200/yr I'll take the hangar over the plane being covered in bird **** every time I go out. Plus, where do you keep the oil and filters for oil changes? The extra headsets? Stuff that goes in the plane, but doesn't always need to be in the plane, etc..?
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When I sold the Skyhawk 9 years ago (at the bottom of the market, of course) I was paying 1.5 times that for a 1940's T-hangar set up for tail draggers. Had to push the tail down to get the Skyhawk in. Much fun, solo.
I recommend, as others have, a flying club membership.
 
Buy the c-150 and fly the heck out of it!!! you will know in 1-2 years if you can afford to own an airplane or need to sell it and go back to renting. My pickup truck is 10 years old because I decided to put a new autopilot in my airplane this year instead of a new truck. its all about choices!! good luck with your decision.
 
DMD3. said:
I only gross between $40k and $50k per year,
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I would be concerned that unless a high proportion of that is disposable income eg you own your own home.. I would be concerned if I could afford to buy and.run a 150 without racking up debt from the associated running expenses.
 
DMD3. said:
According to some of the responses in this particular thread about purchasing a Grumman Cheetah vs. Tiger, buying the slower & less powered airplane now and upgrading to the faster airplane later is a bad idea and should be avoided.

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...-buy-a-cheetah-or-hold-out-for-a-tiger.65819/

In my case, I’ve considered buying something like a C150 or Tomahawk, fly it for 2 or 3 years and get a taste of what aircraft ownership is like. And without spending horrendous money on upgrading avionics or cosmetics, I’d sell it for hopefully around the same price I purchased it. If I can’t afford to operate/maintain/insure an airplane that is cheap in both purchase price and in maintenance/lower fuel burn, I don’t have any business considering owning a Archer, Tiger, or RV 6. Would this be a bad idea? I realize I need to watch out for expensive repairs such as the engine passing TBO or some other A/D (purchasing for $25k and then discovering a $30k repair in order to maintain airworthiness would be a total drag).

I only gross between $40k and $50k per year, depending on how much overtime I earn, so I’m not super wealthy. I’d rather buy the cheaper (in purchase price as well as maintenance) slower airplane that I can afford than buy the pricier, faster airplane and find that I can’t afford it. Has anyone else done this?
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exncsurfer said:
So the poverty rate is 100K now in some states? Glad I don't live there!
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Unit74 said:
?
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Did you add something here? I think I missed it.


< .5 * poverty rate = 40-50K

poverty rate = 2 * 40-50K
poverty rate = 80 - 100K

no?
 
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