22 down

Damn, there have been a lot of Cirrus accidents over the past couple months.
 
PaulS said:
Damn, there have been a lot of Cirrus accidents over the past couple months.
Morgan3820 said:
Wonder why?:dunno:
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Do y'all realize how many Cirruses are out there? There "seems to be a lot of Cirrus accidents" because there are a lot of Cirrus aircraft.

Here's a comparison between a couple aircraft types. Fleet size is as of 1 January of this year, number of accidents is between January 1 and June 15th* of this year, extracted via CAROL searches.

Mooney (all models):
Aircraft: 6430
Accidents: 7

Cirrus (all models):
Aircraft: 5778
Accidents: 6

Cessna 210:
Aircraft: 3415
Accidents: 11

Even when you factor in the two recent Cirrus accidents, it's not that far out of family compared to the Mooneys... and STILL a heck of a lot better than the Cessna 210s.

The fleet size of the Mooney and Cessna 210 is somewhat suspect. The average Mooney is about 45 years old, and the average 210 is 49. Many of the aircraft are probably not very active. The average Cirrus is about 11 years old.

For instance, a rough calculation of the yearly utilization of Cirri that have suffered accidents between 1998 and 2018 shows that the accident aircraft flew an average of about 250 hours a year. A similar calculation based on Cessna 210 accidents (1998-2015) shows an annual utilization of 130 hours...practically half that of the Cirrus.

So the Cirri are flying more hours, and having fewer accidents. Yes, the older aircraft might be suffering more mechanical fatigue issues...but the biggest single source of trouble is the engine, and these tend to get replaced anyway.

Ron Wanttaja

* Cutoff date chosen based on the ~two weeks it takes to get an accident added to the NTSB database
 
Pretty sure the Mooney fleet has been depleted over the years.
As another datapoint, controller shows 102 Cirrus and 50 Mooneys for sale.
 
Gryder did a video on this one, looks like he nails it to me, I won't post it here, but it's on youtube.

Looks like this guy got his ppl at the end of December and jumped into a 22. Not a good move in my book, but people do move into them like this and do well.

The 22 takes a lot of rudder when you go around low and slow, or coming off a bounce. Jamming the throttle makes it more feisty. It's certainly not hard or dangerous if you are proficient and understand the real need for right rudder. But if you let it catch you, torque and p-factor, it can kill you.

Unfortunately there are a lot of new pilots who want to fly fast with 100 or less hours under their belt, so this will probably happen again.
 
PaulS said:
Gryder did a video on this one, looks like he nails it to me, I won't post it here, but it's on youtube.

Looks like this guy got his ppl at the end of December and jumped into a 22. Not a good move in my book, but people do move into them like this and do well.

The 22 takes a lot of rudder when you go around low and slow, or coming off a bounce. Jamming the throttle makes it more feisty. It's certainly not hard or dangerous if you are proficient and understand the real need for right rudder. But if you let it catch you, torque and p-factor, it can kill you.

Unfortunately there are a lot of new pilots who want to fly fast with 100 or less hours under their belt, so this will probably happen again.
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I don’t agree with him. There is nothing special about a 22. It’s an airplane. With proper training it’s no more difficult to fly than any other HP single. Just because a pilot gets in one close to receiving their pilots credentials does not mean they should not have been flying the airplane. Regardless of how much time or hours pass between certification and a step up to more capable aircraft the success of that step is dependent on training.
 
Wow. That’s too bad. Looks like he was flying the plane a lot at least recently and acquired around feb. while I’ve never flown a cirrus being a PoA member reading here makes me a mini-expert lol, but it sounds like they can be a handful on the go or if trying to land too fast. Just like any other high performance single in the 300hp range. The best safety features of any plane with Chute won’t help you in this situation.
For Cirrus drivers out there what’s it like with full flaps landing configuration and you decide to firewall it and go around and don’t get those flaps in?? For me in the 182 it can be a handful especially id your are trimmed for landing- It’ll balloon fast and speed will really disappear
 
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If firewall the engine with full flaps, stall warning going off, and slow.
The speed picks up, the nose goes up a bit, the plane tilts to the right a bit. And then maintains that awkward angle until the pilot takes corrective action. If you do it really fast, the plane noses up a little bit more and comes back done some, never to level.
Within a minute you will pass Flap Extension speed.
To stall it with full flaps the pilot has to take active effort to raise the nose.
So in this case, Dan is full of sh**.

This is not a P51 with a huge engine, prop and small tail.

Tim



Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I don’t agree with him. There is nothing special about a 22. It’s an airplane. With proper training it’s no more difficult to fly than any other HP single. Just because a pilot gets in one close to receiving their pilots credentials does not mean they should not have been flying the airplane. Regardless of how much time or hours pass between certification and a step up to more capable aircraft the success of that step is dependent on training.
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I don't think Gryder was singling out the 22 at all, I heard him say high powered single, and you better be proficient. I think he got it right on this one.



bflynn said:
You guys watched Gryder enough to argue about whether or not he is right?
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Lol. I unsubscribed, but it still popped up. I like his AQP stuff.

benyflyguy said:
Wow. That’s too bad. Looks like he was flying the plane a lot at least recently and acquired around feb. while I’ve never flown a cirrus being a PoA member reading here makes me a mini-expert lol, but it sounds like they can be a handful on the go or if trying to land too fast. Just like any other high performance single in the 300hp range. The best safety features of any plane with Chute won’t help you in this situation.
For Cirrus drivers out there what’s it like with full flaps landing configuration and you decide to firewall it and go around and don’t get those flaps in?? For me in the 182 it can be a handful especially id your are trimmed for landing- It’ll balloon fast and speed will really disappear
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I don't have a lot of experience in other HP singles, but I do fly a 22. You just have to stay ahead of it in all phases of flight, like any other airplane.

The 22 will climb at 750 fpm with full flaps. So there really is no reason to rush anything. I've done go arounds from a bounce, it's no big deal, go to full throttle over about 3 seconds, and you just have to remember right rudder, pretty normal from there. It obviously changes trim as you add power and speed up, but nothing excessive or difficult to control. It's pretty well mannered, except... :

tspear said:
If firewall the engine with full flaps, stall warning going off, and slow.
The speed picks up, the nose goes up a bit, the plane tilts to the right a bit. And then maintains that awkward angle until the pilot takes corrective action. If you do it really fast, the plane noses up a little bit more and comes back done some, never to level.
Within a minute you will pass Flap Extension speed.
To stall it with full flaps the pilot has to take active effort to raise the nose.
So in this case, Dan is full of sh**.

This is not a P51 with a huge engine, prop and small tail.

Tim



Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
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My experience is it's pretty well mannered unless you screw up. I screwed up once, on a go around, with an instructor. I was half flaps, landed, went to go before I put the nose down. I put power in too fast, I was nose high, the airplane popped off the runway and the torque turned the plane left and rolled it left about 15 degrees. That happened almost instantaneously. Fortunately I was climbing, about 20 feet off the ground. I immediately lowered the nose while putting in a lot more right rudder, leveled the wings and got back over the runway.

Like I said, it happened fast, I was amazed at how fast. The instructor reacted, but he wasn't expecting it, neither was I, I told him I had it and he let me get it back. Fortunately I'm not a 100 hour pilot, have had good training. But it was one of those "oh ****" moments, I won't ever do that again.

So based on that experience, in a 22, I think Gryder nailed the cause. As you say, from a normal landing configuration the go around is a yawner, but if you pull that nose up, low, slow and full power, you better be ready because things get ugly quick. I don't think there really is any other explanation. I think any 300 hp single can bite you in the ass if you screw up like this.
 
PaulS said:
I don't think Gryder was singling out the 22 at all, I heard him say high powered single, and you better be proficient. I think he got it right on this one.
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I don’t watch his videos. You specifically mentioned the 22 in the post I quoted.

I still don’t think the total time matters. What matters is the quality of training and attitude of the pic.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I don’t watch his videos. You specifically mentioned the 22 in the post I quoted.

I still don’t think the total time matters. What matters is the quality of training and attitude of the pic.
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I don't think he was ragging on Cirrus, more on training and the fact these type of accidents keep happening. The guy in this accident had about 7 months of flying as a private pilot under his belt, if he is the guy I looked up. Draw your own conclusions I guess.
 
@PaulS

I have never bounced a plane on landing where I went up more than a few inches.
However, my old CFI, wanted me to be prepared, so we multiple times would abort the landing as the wheels touch, or when the stall warning goes off in the flair. I have slammed the throttle many times, never have I had an experience like you describe.

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PaulS said:
I don't think he was ragging on Cirrus, more on training and the fact these type of accidents keep happening. The guy in this accident had about 7 months of flying as a private pilot under his belt, if he is the guy I looked up. Draw your own conclusions I guess.
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With proper training that is plenty of time in my opinion.
 
tspear said:
@PaulS

I have never bounced a plane on landing where I went up more than a few inches.
However, my old CFI, wanted me to be prepared, so we multiple times would abort the landing as the wheels touch, or when the stall warning goes off in the flair. I have slammed the throttle many times, never have I had an experience like you describe.

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Edit ( came across snarky) I have had some impressive bounces in my flying time, a few of them in Cirrus'. If you haven't had any, just be aware they can happen, especially on a gusty day.

I'm not sure which post you are talking about, but the last one I describe is a screwed up touch and go, not a bounce. Read again how it happened, it wasn't a bounce, it was actually a greaser. I doubt an instructor would demonstrate that to you , I never want to see it again.

You should never slam the throttle in any airplane.

Also, be very careful, talking about p-factor and torque was part of my high power check out, just because you haven't seen it in a 22 doesn't mean it can't happen, it can and does, I can attest to it.
 
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I don't have experience with a SR22, but this is not the first one that stalled and spun during a go-around. But this is not unique to Cirrus. The amount of forward pressure required in a go-around is not emphasized enough during training. With flaps, a high performance engine will pitch the nose up enough to cause a stall. I agree with Dan on this one.
 
PaulS said:
Maybe, but this guy and a kid, died so maybe not.
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What level of training did the pilot receive? What attitudes towards risk management did the PIC posses? The conclusion this pilot was in over their head is most likely a reasonable conclusion.

Extending that to every pilot with seven months experience after a private checkride is not valid in my opinion. It is equally foolish to assume that having “only” seven months experience was contributory.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
What level of training did the pilot receive? What attitudes towards risk management did the PIC posses? The conclusion this pilot was in over their head is most likely a reasonable conclusion. Extending that to every pilot with seven months experience after a private checkride is not valid in my opinion.
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I hope those questions get answered, I think low time pilots should give serious consideration as to whether they are getting in over their head in faster airplanes.

The eagle flight Cirrus 22 crash was a similar scenario, a pilot jumps into a 22 three days after getting his ppl in a trainer. Flies 70 hours in two years and, it appears, augers in during a go around. I'm not saying you have to be an ace or the 22 is more difficult than other HP aircraft, but things are happening that shouldn't be happening.

Also, it's less extending it to all low time pilots, and more that any pilot in a HP aircraft better make sure they are up to the task.

Hopefully we will find out how much time this guy actually had when this happened.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I don’t agree with him. There is nothing special about a 22. It’s an airplane. With proper training it’s no more difficult to fly than any other HP single. Just because a pilot gets in one close to receiving their pilots credentials does not mean they should not have been flying the airplane. Regardless of how much time or hours pass between certification and a step up to more capable aircraft the success of that step is dependent on training.
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Totally agree. I’ve owned or been a partner in 3 HP singles, a Columbia 350, SR22, and a T206. The SR22 is the easiest to fly.
 
tspear said:
If firewall the engine with full flaps, stall warning going off, and slow.
The speed picks up, the nose goes up a bit, the plane tilts to the right a bit.
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Not sure about that last part.

My experience in that situation is that the plane begins a combination yaw/roll to the left. Also not sure about where in the typical sequence “the speed picks up”, with no mention of aggressively lowering the nose to have any chance of gaining speed.

I know I’ve saved at least SR22 go around that otherwise would have ended in a smoking hole to the left of the runway - which is a depressingly common occurrence. Unless trained properly, this is a situation where the reflex is to apply right aileron but not to lower the nose and stomp on the right rudder to stop the left yaw. Left turning tendencies that are relatively benign in a 100 hp trainer are massively exaggerated given 3x the power.
 
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Oops, yes tilts left.
The plane is already at flying speed, so just throttle forward and go.
If you push the nose down, you can porpoise the plane into the runway.


Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
 
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