Is a four year degree still mandatory

Well, thanks everyone for your time and input. I am starting to think it may be best to leave flying to the birds and the experts
Well, good luck in college.
Good luck to you as well friend and a happy New Year.
 
You may be right, but I’m not sure I’d consider the ‘pilot shortage’ an industry cycle. Had the 1500hr rule not have gone into effect, 121 operators would be littered with suitable applicants. I would consider it nothing more than supply and demand.

Just my 2c
I think the 1500 hour rule has just exacerbated a writing on the wall being ignored problem that was in progress anyway. The change in mandatory retirement age about ten years ago kept a lot of grey heads in the US pool for five more years as we continued on out of the horror show that occurred in 2008 and onward which slowed the needs of an industry that was on short final. Well the mothership has landed, worldwide big airships are selling like hotcakes, people are lining up to pay too much money for too little space and Robert's your uncle somebody gotta fly these things. The job suction starts at the big show, sucks all the regional pilots up, the regionals suck up Part 135 pilots and any other pilot they can legally let fly their turboprops, and the corporate, charter, and air freight outfits suck up any 500 hour CFI or Commercial ticket holder they can find. Correct me if I'm out of line, I'm not up on all the requirements for each level. Point is for the next five years, mandatory retirement will outstrip the ability of the flight schools to manufacture CFI's and move students up the line toward eventual ATP status. We may see the same thing that happened in the medical field, we'll be flooded with pilots coming in from other countries with work visas to fill some of the holes and keep wages down, lobbying to extend or remove the mandatory retirement (It should be removed, and replaced with a medical requirement) and of course the inexorable push to load automated cattle cars with no pilots and robots for cabin crew.

Sorry for running on, I get carried away sometimes.....
 
Are there that many pilots in the foreign pipeline to fill the demand? I may be wrong but I don’t think so.
 
Fill the demand, no. But they will flow to whatever airlines pay the best. Already happening to some degree.
 
Well, shoot. He's gone.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
 
The OP may consider a community college for 2 years while working to support his initial training. Then transfer to a University. That's how I earned my BSME. Took my 6 years but I completed the courses and got my sheep skin. Worked in a warehouse, and as a reservist in the USNR. I did have 4 years active USN and the GI Bill to help.
 
I see them cancel all the time due to duty time and there being no more reserve pilots.

It is nice to have a 4 year degree as insurance in the event your medical was to be revoked for some reason.

Duty time issues and possible crew scheduling screwups do not equate to an overall pilot shortage. Besides my comment was meant to be a bit tongue in cheek.
 
Well, thanks everyone for your time and input. I am starting to think it may be best to leave flying to the birds and the experts

Good luck to you as well friend and a happy New Year.

But we only became “experts” by going through the training and education and gaining experience. And some of us just fake our expertise.

If flying is something that you really want to do, find a way to get the appropriate education and training.
 
I think lumping all former service members into a single category of "really good" or "not good" is pretty difficult. We come from all walks of life, all levels of ability and experience. Much like anywhere else, you have people that pull their weight, and plenty of others who barely fog a mirror in the service.
I completely agree. And the bolded part is why I no longer give any preference to ex-military in my hiring. I don't avoid hiring them of course. But I also don't give them any kind of preference because I simply have not found where picking the candidate that has a military background translates into any greater chance of ending up with a successful hire.
 
DON'T go trucking... it's never been a great career (Some Teamsters union jobs the exception) and it gets worse every year from so many aspects. You see the airlines crying for pilots and offering some really great signing bonuses and much better entry salaries? Well the trucking industry has been whining for decades they can't get enough drivers and guess what? They ain't offering diddly.
Meh, my experience was different. I have flown professionally and driven trucks professionally. Never wanted to do living out of suitcase aviation and never did, never wanted to do over the road trucking and never did.

There are those who will tell you its impossible to get a CDL and go right into local work and that over the road is the only job you will find with no experience and that you MUST 'pay your dues' by running over the road for horrible companies for a few years before you can be considered for a local driving job. Well that's a very common career path in trucking, but its far the only one. And you are correct that there a lots of really bad companies to drive for out there. Guess what? There are a sh*t ton of bad companies to fly for too.

You are also correct that no one in aviation is offering huge sign-on bonuses or other perks to try to lore new hires like they do in trucking. And I have to say that's part of the reason I ended up in trucking after leaving aviation. I got sick and tired of working in an industry where there are always tons more applicants than there are available jobs. Every boss I worked for in aviation and the bosses of everyone I knew in aviation all received a fresh stack of resumes in the mail every single day. And in each of those daily stacks, you could find resumes from guys that had more experience than you and would be willing to do whatever it was you were doing for less money than you. And at least a few of those with similar experience to you would probably do what you were doing for free.

If you're going to stay working for small companies as I intended to, that will be your reality. You can always be replaced at a moments notice by someone who is just as qualified as you and is willing to do your job cheaper than you. That's just how it is in aviation. Really makes it hard to negotiate raises. Also makes it hard to say no when the boss tells you go to his house and paint his garage for free.

So when I decided to leave, I wanted to go where the balance was the opposite. I wanted to go into something where there were more jobs than applicants. Trucking has that. And yep, here are tons of bad companies and bad gigs. But there are good ones too. What I know is I put $10's of thousands into getting myself qualified to fly for a living and spent few years working my way up to making $30k/year working 7 days a week. When I left, I think I spent about $3500 getting a CDL. I had a job offer before I finished CDL school and that job paid me $50k/yr working 4 days a week and I never went over the road. And no boss I've ever worked for in trucking expected me to do a free brake job on their car or go rehab their vacation house for free. Can't say the same for my aviation experience.
 
Was a 4 year degree ever "mandatory"? Did the airlines require that? I don't know.

But airlines aside, a 4 year degree was never really mandatory for anyone. It was a tool people could use to get better jobs, better pay and better social status. And for the most part, it still is. If you want a leg up on the competition, you can either go out and individually prove you are better than the others, or you can get a college degree to help document at least some of your abilities. If you choose the "individual proof" way, be prepared to have to prove it over and over.
 
The only thing that really irks me about this industry is the FFD whipsaw.

There's something fundamentally wrong when people speak categorically about a job that accomplishes 50% of the domestic feed for the Country, as "entry level". That's not a one-off. Flying routes that are no different than those flown by people getting paid 200K/350K respectively. Take my sister's Xmas travel plans for instance: 1,400NM in a mini Guppy, flown by two people who combined don't top 200K and no retirement. Same airspace, same speed profiles, same wx, same arrivals to the same ground logistics, same ticketed passengers on the same livery. And we call that entry level? That dynamic has always kept me up about pro flying.

And the willingness to work for low wages.


Tom


yeah, that. The whipsaw is real. Nothing I can do individually about that, beyond stuffing my ATP in the shadow inventory of domestic pilots who refuse to fly for such wages. I suppose I should thank my family for making it fiscally impossible for me to pursue that income level without defaulting on the very people and things I get up and drag my @ss out of bed for in the first place. Certainly one of the reasons I dabble in this hobby as an alternative, if it comes to leaving the profession. I wouldn't do my current job if the military paid me enlisted or WO money for it. Part time sure, but not as a full time occupation. Turnover rates would be horrendous though; I'd almost be afraid to get on the damn thing in that environment. And that's knowing what I know about it in today's conditions, which are far from peachy.

So yeah, to quote goodfellas: FUPM. :D
 
stuffing my ATP in the shadow inventory of domestic pilots who refuse to fly for such wages.

As someone who is current in a professional flying job, you wouldn't need to.

Although it is the major airlines themselves who have created the self-licking ice cream cone of a virtually-required hiring path through the regonals, the vast majority of military guys get to skip that step.

Unless you get out non-current/recent, like me.
 
Plenty of pilot jobs still don’t require a degree. We can’t fill slots (currently 16) with or without a degree in our company. Forget the degree and get the experience (hours) that a company requires. It’s all about insurance premiums and the underwriters don’t care about college.

If you’re set on the majors though, I’d get a degree.
 
Apparently actual flying skill isn’t required.

Had a coupe of miserable landings courtesy of PSA today. 20 kts wind straight down the runway and you’d a thought we were all gonna die.
 
Apparently actual flying skill isn’t required.

Had a coupe of miserable landings courtesy of PSA today. 20 kts wind straight down the runway and you’d a thought we were all gonna die.

My idea for 121 airline recurrent training is to have a fleet of Cubs of Citabrias or Champs, and before each annual sim cycle each pilot has to do three trips around the air patch to three three-points and three wheel landings in a crosswind.

Nobody else seems to think this is a good idea.
 
Apparently actual flying skill isn’t required.

Had a coupe of miserable landings courtesy of PSA today. 20 kts wind straight down the runway and you’d a thought we were all gonna die.

Given the level of automation today, an engineering degree would probably make the most sense.


Tom
 
Given the level of automation today, an engineering degree would probably make the most sense.

The answer for "pilots have been losing stick-and-rudder skills due to atrophy" doesn't seem to be "don't hire pilots, then".
 
Duty time issues and possible crew scheduling screwups do not equate to an overall pilot shortage. Besides my comment was meant to be a bit tongue in cheek.
Words lost in translation due to not knowing the tone of voice? That has never happened on the internet ever!!!
 
It’s not required, it’s not 2005 anymore. I know of a few guys who flowed in, one was working on his degree and decided to stop and just get a 2year since he already had time invested.
 
Like I was saying, a four year degree can be YOUR insurance in case you were to ever lose your medical.
 
Like I was saying, a four year degree can be YOUR insurance in case you were to ever lose your medical.


A BS in BS isn’t very good insurance, also just stay healthy and be smart, the medical isn’t exactly require Olympic athletics level fitness.
 
A BS in BS isn’t very good insurance, also just stay healthy and be smart, the medical isn’t exactly require Olympic athletics level fitness.
BS in Business can help get you on in the management side of an airline if the unfortunate event of losing your medical happens. Obviously would never wish that upon anyone. Things like your eyes going bad or loss of hearing from events out of ones control can happen anytime. Diabetes is for the most part preventable if you know your family has a history by being berry dilegent with your acting habits.

A four year degree by no means is a requirement anymore. Having a BS in Business majoring in Supply Chain has helped me in my career and now I am contemplating going back to flying to finish commercial etc.
 
A BS in BS isn’t very good insurance, also just stay healthy and be smart, the medical isn’t exactly require Olympic athletics level fitness.

I dunno man, I keep myself in pretty decent shape, but I don't feel so invincible anymore.

That said, not sure my degrees will help if I lose my medical - I haven't done anything professionally in CS since I was writing code for the PlayStation 2, and my Physics degree isn't going to help me unless I go back to school for a PhD. So I'd be pretty well f***ed. Starbucks barista it is!
 
I dunno man, I keep myself in pretty decent shape, but I don't feel so invincible anymore.

That said, not sure my degrees will help if I lose my medical - I haven't done anything professionally in CS since I was writing code for the PlayStation 2, and my Physics degree isn't going to help me unless I go back to school for a PhD. So I'd be pretty well f***ed. Starbucks barista it is!

They’re hiring school bus drivers in my town at $14 / hr and $1000 bonus! If I lose my medical, I could easily go from a flying ambulance driver to a bus driver and still get by. :)
 
They’re hiring school bus drivers in my town at $14 / hr and $1000 bonus! If I lose my medical, I could easily go from a flying ambulance driver to a bus driver and still get by. :)

Great plan! It'd be even less of a transition for me!
 
I dunno man, I keep myself in pretty decent shape, but I don't feel so invincible anymore.

That said, not sure my degrees will help if I lose my medical - I haven't done anything professionally in CS since I was writing code for the PlayStation 2, and my Physics degree isn't going to help me unless I go back to school for a PhD. So I'd be pretty well f***ed. Starbucks barista it is!

Lol. There are a few guys in the company who had some health issue, seem they just sidestep to somewhere they don’t need the medical.
 
A BS in BS isn’t very good insurance, also just stay healthy and be smart, the medical isn’t exactly require Olympic athletics level fitness.

Haha! A BS in BS, I like that it sums up my college experience to a tee. I attended college for a semester, my major was in accounting. The first semester I learned nothing about accounting they basically retaught high school material for a high price tag. I have never been the type of person that learns well from reading books and taking tests, I enjoy a more hands on experience that’s why becoming a pilot struck me as something that I would like. It sounded like most of the training was hands on. Of course, I imagine there is a fair amount of reading and paper testing involved which is fine and necessary for certain aspects of the career. But it seemed to me that being a good pilot boiled down to your ability to handle an aircraft, you’re over all flight time, and a passion for what you’re doing.

I would never disregard college or higher education as a waste of time, but it definitely wasn’t for me. Thanks again everyone for taking the time out of your day to reply and answer my question I really appreciate it!
 
And I wish our world could come to terms with the fact that college isn't for everyone. People who would prefer to be tradesmen/people are these days being forced into universities, accepting tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, and coming out the other side with a piece of paper that is largely useless in life. The bachelor's degree for this generation has become what a HS diploma was for mine. It is exponentially more expensive, and at the same time, exponentially less valuable today IMO. Have a BA in anything? Welcome to your new career at Starbucks and other minimum wage jobs. BS might be a little more useful, depending on area of study (i.e. not anything ending in "science")
 
And I wish our world could come to terms with the fact that college isn't for everyone. People who would prefer to be tradesmen/people are these days being forced into universities, accepting tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, and coming out the other side with a piece of paper that is largely useless in life. The bachelor's degree for this generation has become what a HS diploma was for mine. It is exponentially more expensive, and at the same time, exponentially less valuable today IMO. Have a BA in anything? Welcome to your new career at Starbucks and other minimum wage jobs. BS might be a little more useful, depending on area of study (i.e. not anything ending in "science")

Very wise words, sir. Most people I have had the opportunity to talk with about their experience in the job market after attending college has been grim to say the least. A degree that costs them 60,000 dollars plus interest landed them a job that pays less than 35,000 a year. The reason why this happened one may ask is they lacked a key element that every employer is looking for and, that was experience in the field. Hence my hesitation about the cost of flight school plus the financial and personal commitment of a four-year degree.
 
STEM degrees are most likely well worth the pain at this point in our economy... everything else in my totally disconnected opinion is basically proof you could drink and party your way through four years of your parents or the taxpayers (guaranteed student loans) money. Mostly has always been about ego, and the old boys club originally, if they hired somebody without a degree and they did well, it would cheapen their sheepskin, can't have that, gotta have separation of the classes you know! Some things never change in humanity.
 
A BS in BS isn’t very good insurance
No, but a BS in lots of other things can allow for some very good plan B options. And even a BS in BS will get you jobs you would not otherwise be able to get.
I dunno man, I keep myself in pretty decent shape, but I don't feel so invincible anymore.

That said, not sure my degrees will help if I lose my medical - I haven't done anything professionally in CS since I was writing code for the PlayStation 2, and my Physics degree isn't going to help me unless I go back to school for a PhD. So I'd be pretty well f***ed. Starbucks barista it is!
Airlines are a field where having a degree makes you more employable. There are jobs you won't get unless you have a degree. Doesn't matter what the degree is in, just that you have one. Aviation is far from the only career field where this is the case. There are lots of jobs where you will not be considered unless you have a degree or happen to be related to a key person. Doesn't matter so much what the degree is in, just that you have one. So your degrees would most definitely open doors for you that would not otherwise be open. Whether or not you care about those particular doors is a different matter, but that doesn't change the fact that having your degrees will give you options you wouldn't otherwise have.
They’re hiring school bus drivers in my town at $14 / hr and $1000 bonus! If I lose my medical, I could easily go from a flying ambulance driver to a bus driver and still get by. :)
School bus drivers still need medicals. There are fewer disqualifies for DOT physicals but lots of things that will cost you your FAA medical will also prevent you from getting a DOT version.

I have never been the type of person that learns well from reading books and taking tests, I enjoy a more hands on experience that’s why becoming a pilot struck me as something that I would like. It sounded like most of the training was hands on. Of course, I imagine there is a fair amount of reading and paper testing involved which is fine and necessary for certain aspects of the career. But it seemed to me that being a good pilot boiled down to your ability to handle an aircraft, you’re over all flight time, and a passion for what you’re doing.
If you're not a book learning kind of person, professional aviation probably isn't going to be for you. A whole lot more to it than just knowing how to handle the plane and just skating by on a lot of that other stuff can be dangerous.
 
Haha! A BS in BS, I like that it sums up my college experience to a tee. I attended college for a semester, my major was in accounting. The first semester I learned nothing about accounting they basically retaught high school material for a high price tag. I have never been the type of person that learns well from reading books and taking tests, I enjoy a more hands on experience that’s why becoming a pilot struck me as something that I would like. It sounded like most of the training was hands on. Of course, I imagine there is a fair amount of reading and paper testing involved which is fine and necessary for certain aspects of the career. But it seemed to me that being a good pilot boiled down to your ability to handle an aircraft, you’re over all flight time, and a passion for what you’re doing.

I would never disregard college or higher education as a waste of time, but it definitely wasn’t for me. Thanks again everyone for taking the time out of your day to reply and answer my question I really appreciate it!

Being a good pilot in a Cessna is about flying ability, flight time, and passion. The airlines care nothing about that. They want an engineer that knows all the systems and how they interact. What buttons to push and what the regulations are. Airline flying is 90% book learning and 10% flying. I still remember the nights my dad would sit on the couch with 4-5 4" thick binders of material studying for his recurrent training at the airlines. When you go to a simulator for training they aren't looking for your ability to hand fly the airplane, they are looking for your ability to interpret emergencies, how to resolve them, and if all else fails how to manually fly the airplane to a safe crash spot.
 
And I wish our world could come to terms with the fact that college isn't for everyone.

There is a huge segment of the population that does, and are making very good money in the trades.
 
Ahh, that's what I was worried about. I guess in that case its on to option two because there is no way I could afford flight school on top of a four year degree unless I hit the Powerball :(! Thanks for your input it was helpful.

Do your flight training. Get a job as a CFI. Pick up a pipeline or banner job. Get 1,500 hours. Go to a regional. While there, being paid, start working through an online degree program at your pace as you can afford it. You need to build time anyway, so do it at an affordable pace. By the time you have the hours to be considered by a major, you'll have a degree.

Don't make this a bigger obstacle than it is. Plus it's a good backup (assuming you get a degree in something useful...I'd do computer science as a backup) should your flight career gets cut short for health or economic reasons. Sadly, you need a four year degree to even get an interview for most jobs these days unless you pursue a trade (which is an excellent choice these days.)

But if you want to fly BIG jets for a major carrier, they require a four year degree.
 
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