What will you do with me (and others like me?)

[Cooter]

Yep, to each his own as the Qur'an clearly states. On that day God will inform us of our errors and judge our hearts. In the meantime, when it comes to worship and prayer to a deity, I will follow the perfect example of Jesus The Messiah/Christ (pbuh). I love him, but I can't worship nor pray to him or his mother as Catholics do.

Three is the very definition of poly-theism. By the way, this argument has been going on for centuries
Peace.

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

109:1 Say: O disbelievers,
109:2 I serve not what you serve,
109:3 Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve,
109:4 Nor shall I serve that which ye serve,
109:5 Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve.
109:6 For you is your recompense and for me my recompense.

Yusuf Ali translation: 109:6 "To you be your Way, and to me mine."

5:75 The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; messengers before him had indeed passed away. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We make the messages clear to them! then behold, how they are turned away!

5:76 Say: Do you serve besides Allah that which controls for you neither harm nor good? And Allah — He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

5:77 Say: O People of the Book, exaggerate not in the matter of your religion unjustly, and follow not the low desires of people who went astray before and led many astray, and went astray from the right path.

5:72 Muhammad Sarwar: Those who say that Jesus, the son of Mary, is God, have, in fact, turned to disbelief. Jesus said to the Israelites, "Worship God, my Lord and yours. God will deprive anyone who considers anything equal to God of Paradise and his dwelling will be fire. The unjust people have no helpers."

According to the Koran, I am condemned to fire along with all who believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Both Islam and Christianity make exclusive claims. We may both be wrong but we can't both be right!

When compared to other religions, Islam and Christianity have much in common. But when it comes down to what we actually believe, we are still very different. According to Islam, I am an infidel. But it doesn't mean we can't get along and enjoy some conversation.

 

[redtail]

5:72 Muhammad Sarwar: Those who say that Jesus, the son of Mary, is God, have, in fact, turned to disbelief. Jesus said to the Israelites, "Worship God, my Lord and yours. God will deprive anyone who considers anything equal to God of Paradise and his dwelling will be fire. The unjust people have no helpers."

According to the Koran, I am condemned to fire along with all who believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Both Islam and Christianity make exclusive claims. We may both be wrong but we can't both be right!

When compared to other religions, Islam and Christianity have much in common. But when it comes down to what we actually believe, we are still very different. According to Islam, I am an infidel. But it doesn't mean we can't get along and enjoy some conversation.

This is true. According to the Qur'an (and Bible), God warns us that He does not take lightly our associating ANYTHING or ANYONE with Him as equal partners!

5:72 Certainly they disbelieve who say: Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Mary. And the Messiah said: O Children of Israel, serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, Allah has forbidden to him the Garden and his abode is the Fire. And for the wrongdoers there will be no helpers.

5:73 Certainly they disbelieve who say: Allah is the third of the three. And there is no God but One God. And if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement will surely befall such of them as disbelieve.

In fact, He said it long before he revealed the Qur'an

Deuteronomy 4:24
"So watch yourselves, that you do not forget the covenant of the LORD your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a graven image in the form of anything against which the LORD your God has commanded you. 24 "For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. 25"When you become the father of children and children's children and have remained long in the land, and act corruptly, and make an idol in the form of anything, and do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD your God so as to provoke Him to anger,…


Any chastisement, I might add, is His and His ALONE to enforce as he pleases. Not mine, yours or anyone elses........AS STATED OVER AND OVER IN THE BIBLE AND QUR'AN. Same applies to blasphemy or mockery of God's prophets.

 

[Cooter]

This is true. According to the Qur'an, God warns us that He does not take lightly our associating ANYTHING or ANYONE with Him as equal partners!

5:72 Certainly they disbelieve who say: Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Mary. And the Messiah said: O Children of Israel, serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, Allah has forbidden to him the Garden and his abode is the Fire. And for the wrongdoers there will be no helpers.

5:73 Certainly they disbelieve who say: Allah is the third of the three. And there is no God but One God. And if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement will surely befall such of them as disbelieve.

In fact, He said it long before he revealed the Qur'an

Deuteronomy 4:24
"So watch yourselves, that you do not forget the covenant of the LORD your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a graven image in the form of anything against which the LORD your God has commanded you. 24 "For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. 25"When you become the father of children and children's children and have remained long in the land, and act corruptly, and make an idol in the form of anything, and do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD your God so as to provoke Him to anger,…


Any chastisement, I might add, is His and His ALONE to enforce as he pleases. Not mine, yours or anyone elses........AS STATED OVER AND OVER IN THE BIBLE AND QUR'AN.

Hey redtail, as an aside here. What's the difference in using Qur'an and Koran. Is it just as acceptable to use Koran?

And let me add just for clarity. Christianity does not believe in three Gods. Christianity believes in one God that is manifest in three persons. One is essence, three in persons. It's the whole idea of unity in diversity that man had been chasing down for the last 4,000 years or so.

 

[redtail]

Hey redtail, as an aside here. What's the difference in using Qur'an and Koran. Is it just as acceptable to use Koran?

Really no significant difference. Same as Moslem/Muslim, Mohammed/Muhammad. It's just a matter of transliterating Arabic into English. I'm a native English speaker (American) but according to my understanding, Qur'an (apostrophe used to emphasize a glottal stop), sounds closer to the original Arabic pronunciation than Kor-ran.
It simply means "the recitation" or "continuous recitation". It is the word of God revealed over a 23 year period (age 40 until death) to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) via the Angel of revelation, Gabriel in the Bible. Jabril in Arabic.

 

[redtail]

And let me add just for clarity. Christianity does not believe in three Gods. Christianity believes in one God that is manifest in three persons. One is essence, three in persons. It's the whole idea of unity in diversity that man had been chasing down for the last 4,000 years or so.

Only three? My God, I would think that he manifest his essence in ALL of his creation.

Monotheism predates Muhammad (pbuh) AND Jesus (pbuh).
Deuteronomy 6
13 Fear the Lord your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name. 14 Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you; 15 for the Lord your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land.

Matthew 5:17
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Surah 5:72 ...while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers."

You can substitute the Arabic word Allah with God or "Father" if you'd like. The point is clear, Jesus (pbuh) came and reminded the people of the original message. Worship The Father ALONE. (just as when they asked him to teach them how to pray, AND as he called upon during his trial,tribulation/crucifixion).

In fact, in the Lord's prayer, he told his disciples to say "OUR FATHER". That would make us all God's children. How then could Jesus (pbuh) be his ONLY begotten son? Someone made a grave error in either translation or understanding! However, God IS OUR father, when properly understood.

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever.
Amen.

Couldn't be clearer.
So I'll say again. You can't claim to fulfil the law of the prophets and messengers who came before you (Abraham, Moses, etc) and then violate, changing the number one principle which they taught (monotheism), by splitting your Lord into three parts.
Each part being equal in power and authority. No that is NOT what he taught. "Follow me" NOT worship/pray to me.

Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me".


3:83 Say We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us, and that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we submit.

 

[weilke]

Really no significant difference. Same as Moslem/Muslim, Mohammed/Muhammad. It's just a matter of transliterating Arabic into English. I'm a native English speaker (American) but according to my understanding, Qur'an (apostrophe used to emphasize a glottal stop), sounds closer to the original Arabic pronunciation than Kor-ran.
It simply means "the recitation" or "continuous recitation". It is the word of God revealed over a 23 year period (age 40 until death) to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) via the Angel of revelation, Gabriel in the Bible. Jabril in Arabic.

To what extent did Muhammad have access to the texts that make up the old testament of the bible ?

 

[redtail]

Peace be with you.

John 14:27-31
"Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled; do not be afraid. You heard Me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it happens, so that when it does happen, you will believe.

I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me. But I do exactly what the Father has commanded Me, so that the world may know that I love the Father."

 

[Cooter]

Only three? My God, I would think that he manifest his essence in ALL of his creation.

No, that would be Pantheism. And neither one of us believe that.

As for the rest of your post, I've already acknowledged that Christianity believes in one God. One in essence, three in person is not Polytheism.

I also pointed out that you cannot call God father, Christianity does. They do so not because they like the name or because God doesn't really care what we call Him. We do so because God in His very nature is a Father. If you call Him Father, you blaspheme and lie. When I do so, I recognize the very nature of His existence. I'm really surprised to hear a Muslim say that it doesn't matter what we call God.

I have to run to work, but it seems like some instruction on the Trinity is in order. I will try to post something tonight. But let me leave you with this question. Why did Israel crucify Jesus? When He was accused of blaspheme, did He deny it?

 

[weilke]

But let me leave you with this question. Why did Israel crucify Jesus? When He was accused of blaspheme, did He deny it?

The romans crucified Jesus. They did it because it was the politically expedient thing to do.

 

[redtail]

If you call Him Father, you blaspheme and lie. When I do so, I recognize the very nature of His existence. I'm really surprised to hear a Muslim say that it doesn't matter what we call God.

To accuse me of blasphemy and lying is rather silly, don't you think. Pretty extreme in fact!

In the Arabic Bible and Qur'an, we call him by the proper name, Allah. In Arabic, he has attributes such as Beneficent, Merciful, Wise, Originator, etc.
99 in all.

I think Father is a perfectly appropriate title, as is Lord, Master and King. As long as I'm calling on HIM (as Jesus did) and not any of his creation!

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
1:1 Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds,
1:2 The Beneficent, the Merciful,
1:3 Master of the day of Requital.
1:4 Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.
1:5 Guide us on the right path,
1:6 The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors,
1:7 Not those upon whom wrath is brought down, nor those who go astray.

“O Allah! Thou art The King, there is no God but Thee. Thou art my Lord and I am Thine servant."

Surprised? That's because you lack understanding.

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
17:110 Say: Call on Allah or call on the Beneficent. By whatever (name) you call on Him, He has the best names. And utter not thy prayer loudly nor be silent in it, and seek a way between these.

20:8 Allah — there is no God but He. His are the most beautiful names.

7:180 And Allah’s are the best names, so call on Him thereby and leave alone those who violate the sanctity of His names. They will be recompensed for what they do.

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever.
Amen.

What a beautiful prayer.

 

[Cooter]

To accuse me of blasphemy and lying is kind of silly, don't you think.

I didn't accuse you, or didn't mean to at least. I am simply pointing out that there is significance to the name Father, as I pointed out above. The names of God communicate His character and His nature. It isn't a term that Christians uses on a whim. We who are His children, have been adopted into His kingdom and are co-heirs with His only begotten Son, Christ.

Romans 8:14ff. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”


God's nature is eternal and unchanging. His Fatherhood precedes creation, and Jesus Christ precedes creation. This is a very important point, and why I referenced Surat al-Ikhlas above. God didn't become a father with the creation of Adam and Eve, and according to the Koran he has begotten no son. Christians believe that He is a Father in His very being and the book of John shows us that.

I'm not quite sure what point you wish to make. There is an obvious divide between Islam and Christianity. I can keep pointing these differences out, and I don't mind doing it, I'm just not sure what the point is.

Christianity believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He came to earth, not just to live a perfect life as an example, but to die on the cross bearing our sin and suffering the wrath of God. He did this as a sacrifice and atonement for our sins so that we may be set free. God gives us a new life. By this atonement of His wrath (through Christ), and the gift of His Holy Spirit, we can be reconciled to the Father from whom we had been formerly separated by sin. That is why Christians are baptized in the name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Islam denies this, and that is why I am not a Muslim. I believe that Christ was the unblemished lamb that He alone is a sufficient sacrifice to a Holy and righteous God.

I haven't criticized Islam or its teachings, I am simply pointing out what distinguishes Christianity. To say that we worship the same God is to undermine the teachings of both Islam (from my understanding of it) and Christianity.

Peace, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to share God's Word.

 

[weilke]

I'm not quite sure what point you wish to make. There is an obvious divide between Islam and Christianity. I can keep pointing these differences out, and I don't mind doing it, I'm just not sure what the point is.

I think his point is that you put a lot off weight in minor differences that are for the most part the result of cultural influences and imprecise translation. Lord, Father, King are titles of reverence that can be used interchangeably when referencing the same singular deity.

Christianity believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He came to earth, not just to live a perfect life as an example, but to die on the cross bearing our sin and suffering the wrath of God. He did this as a sacrifice and atonement for our sins so that we may be set free. God gives us a new life. By this atonement of His wrath (through Christ), and the gift of His Holy Spirit, we can be reconciled to the Father from whom we had been formerly separated by sin. That is why Christians are baptized in the name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Islam denies this, and that is why I am not a Muslim. I believe that Christ was the unblemished lamb that He alone is a sufficient sacrifice to a Holy and righteous God.

We think Jesus is a big deal and Islam believes that he is one of many prophets. Our bible was written before Muhammad, the Koran and Joseph Smith came into the picture so our book doesn't address either of them. In the grand scheme of things the question whether any of them are messengers, prophets or an embodiment of god are minor issues of interpretation. If I am invited to attend a service at a synagogue, I have no doubt that my friends pray to the same god that I do. Its the negotiating of interpretations at the fringes that has given demagogues on all sides™ opportunity to sow discord among gods people.

 

[Cooter]

I think his point is that you put a lot off weight in minor differences that are for the most part the result of cultural influences and imprecise translation.

According to his holy book, I am an infidel and condemned to eternal fire. According to the Bible, he rejects the Son and will be condemned to eternal fire. Those aren't minor differences.

Nothing prevents us from being friends or showing kindness to one another. In fact, the Bible commands me to love him. But @redtail and I want something beyond that. We wish to live according to the Truth. We disagree on what that Truth is.

The truths we hold to should be tested and examined and see which will stand under scrutiny. Contradictions, inconsistencies, and things that do not comport with reality will be indicators that we have left the path of Truth. I do not treat religious truths the way many on here seem to be suggesting, which is to consider religious truths as somehow untestable and unattainable. I reject the Kantian idea of noumenal unknowableness. The incarnated Christ transcended the noumena and joined us in the phenomena when the Word became flesh.

John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory the glory, of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

Either this is true or false.

1 Cor 15:13 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

If it is false, may I be pitied above all men.

1 Cor 15:19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied

.

 

[weilke]

According to his holy book, I am an infidel and condemned to eternal fire. According to the Bible, he rejects the Son and will be condemned to eternal fire. Those aren't minor differences.

Both books, the new testament of the bible and the Koran were written by people in the process of forming a new religious movement. They took the world around them, interpreted it to fit their new religion and occasionally made claims and statements designed to give their new movement an edge against all the other sects they were competing with at the time. Both books are a lot messier than you want them to be, by picking and choosing verses you can come to wildly different conclusions. You have to read the whole thing and take it in the context it was written in.

 

[Cooter]

Both books, the new testament of the bible and the Koran were written by people in the process of forming a new religious movement. They took the world around them, interpreted it to fit their new religion and occasionally made claims and statements designed to give their new movement an edge against all the other sects they were competing with at the time. Both books are a lot messier than you want them to be, by picking and choosing verses you can come to wildly different conclusions. You have to read the whole thing and take it in the context it was written in.

If the parts are the invention of man, why would the whole book be any better.? Your characterization of the Bible is wrong. I can't speak for the Koran but I'm sure @redtail doesn't believe it to be simply a collection of stories gathered by men trying to start a new religion. I'm not sure what you mean by messy, but the Bible isn't messy to me. It's God's Word,
1 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

But it is messy to sinful man who wants to be justifier and judge, unfortunately God doesn't give is that authority.

Surely you aren't so ignorant of Christian belief that you think the followers of Christ believe the Bible to be nothing more that a collection of stories written by men who are trying to start a new religion? I also find it difficult to believe that you would think that was my belief if you've followed this thread. So that makes me wonder about the purpose of your post. Maybe you just wanted to make known your beliefs? If so, that's fine. Tell us more. How do you believe God reveals Himself and by what means has He communicated His will to man? Or do you believe that God is simply a story made by man by those trying to gain influence over others, or maybe by those trying to make some sense of this world?

 

[Cooter]

In fact, in the Lord's prayer, he told his disciples to say "OUR FATHER". That would make us all God's children. How then could Jesus (pbuh) be his ONLY begotten son? Someone made a grave error in either translation or understanding! However, God IS OUR father, when properly understood.

I missed this earlier. But I happened to address it in a subsequent post. The book of Romans (8:15) teaches us that we are adopted into God's family. Christ is His begotten Son, we are His adopted children. And we, with Christ, are heirs to the Kingdom.

 

[weilke]

If the parts are the invention of man, why would the whole book be any better.? Your characterization of the Bible is wrong. I can't speak for the Koran but I'm sure @redtail doesn't believe it to be simply a collection of stories gathered by men trying to start a new religion. I'm not sure what you mean by messy, but the Bible isn't messy to me. It's God's Word,
1 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Mh, your argument is 'the book is gods word because the book says it is gods word'. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Surely you aren't so ignorant of Christian belief that you think the followers of Christ believe the Bible to be nothing more that a collection of stories written by men who are trying to start a new religion? I also find it difficult to believe that you would think that was my belief if you've followed this thread. So that makes me wonder about the purpose of your post. Maybe you just wanted to make known your beliefs? If so, that's fine. Tell us more. How do you believe God reveals Himself and by what means has He communicated His will to man?

One of the ways he makes himself known is through a long series of prophets who took inspiration from god and wrote down what god inspired them to write. But all of them lived in their time and wrote stories and parables drawn from their time. The ten commandments Moses wrote down also just happened to be a useful rulebook for someone in the process of moving a large group of people through a mountaineous desert in austere conditions. How convenient.

 

[Cooter]

Mh, your argument is 'the book is gods word because the book says it is gods word'. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

That's not my argument at all, it's simply the one you want to believe is my argument. If you want me to interact with you, then you'll have to follow what's been said. Here's one quick example to show you how absurd your statement is about my argument.

The truths we hold to should be tested and examined and see which will stand under scrutiny. Contradictions, inconsistencies, and things that do not comport with reality will be indicators that we have left the path of Truth.

This is my reply to you, which you should have read. What part of that statement says I believe the Bible is God's because it says so. When you honestly answer that question and the others I posed to you earlier, I will reply to more of your post. Until then, I will treat you like a troll who is only trying to shut down the discussion. Which at this point, is about the only thing I can believe about your intentions.

 

[weilke]

That's not my argument at all, it's simply the one you want to believe is my argument.

Of course its your argument. You quoted 1 Timothy 3:16 as proof that it is the direct word of god. I say the letter to Timothy is Pauls instruction to Timothy on how to spread the gospel. But again, it was written by Paul, a man who drew on his surroundings, experience and gods inspiration to write those instructions. It wasn't dictated to him in shorthand.

When you honestly answer that question and the others I posed to you earlier, I will reply to more of your post. Until then, I will treat you like a troll who is only trying to shut down the discussion. Which at this point, is about the only thing I can believe about your intentions.

Ooh, nothing like the condescension of a righteous believer: If you don't subscribe to my truth, you are obviously misguided and not worthy of my time.

 

[Cooter]

For those who may be following, this person, Nabeel Qureshi, is someone whose work I stumbled upon partially because of this thread. I recommend this link for those who want to know more about some of what we've discussed here. https://m.facebook.com/NabeelQureshi.org/
He's intimately familiar with Islam and Christianity and can represent the argument much more skillfully than I. As you can see from the link, God has given Him significant challenges and his faith is being tested to an extreme level. I haven't yet read his books but intend to in the near future. I think you will see and maybe be reminded that the question of who God is, is not simply a question of intellectual curiosity or academic pursuit, although I confess that for me it has sometimes been just that. The question of our origins, our purpose and and our destiny can only be found by seeking the Truth, and that Truth can ultimately be found only in Christ. He claimed to be the Truth of God, the Way to God and the very source of eternal life to those who believe in Him. I'm happy to share my story with any who are interested.
Many thanks to @redtail for the conversation and the moderators for allowing it to take place, and even to @Ravioli for his enviable display of patience.

Peace!

 

[Everskyward]

Good way to end things. If @Cooter, @redtail, and @weilke, and others want to continue this discussion, please do it through PM. The MC has been tolerant and impressed with this thread, but it is technically against the ROC.