What kind of commercial, for hire work, can I do in a Navajo?

paflyer said:
Do you need a 135 to fly ad hoc freight?
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If you receive compensation, even if it is flight time, it is a Part 135 operation. No such thing as "ad hoc."

Bob
 
If you receive compensation, even if it is flight time, it is a Part 135 operation. No such thing as "ad hoc."
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Well, if you engage in common carriage you need an operators certificate. Compensation of the pilot (with even flight time) requires a commerical pilot certificate.

If you fly private carriage, you need a commerical pilot certificate if you are getting paid (or compensated wtih filght time) but you don't need a operator's certificate.

If you fly common carriage, even if you don't receive any compensation, you need a commercial operators license. Part 135 requires the pilots to have commerical (or ATP) certificates.

The "ad hoc" freight is certainly common carriage and it will require a 135 certificate regardless of the compensation involved.
 
paflyer said:
OK, so you do need a certificate to fly commercial freight. Legally. Right?
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It is not listed in the operations NOT governed by Part 119, so yes.

(d) This part does not govern operations conducted under part 91, subpart K (when common carriage is not involved) nor does it govern operations conducted under part 129, 133, 137, or 139 of this chapter.

(e) Except for operations when common carriage is not involved conducted with airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of 20 seats or more, excluding any required crewmember seat, or a payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more, this part does not apply to—

(1) Student instruction;

(2) Nonstop Commercial Air Tours conducted after September 11, 2007, in an airplane or helicopter having a standard airworthiness certificate and passenger-seat configuration of 30 seats or fewer and a maximum payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less that begin and end at the same airport, and are conducted within a 25-statute mile radius of that airport, in compliance with the Letter of Authorization issued under §91.147 of this chapter. For nonstop Commercial Air Tours conducted in accordance with part 136, subpart B of this chapter, National Parks Air Tour Management, the requirements of part 119 of this chapter apply unless excepted in §136.37(g)(2). For Nonstop Commercial Air Tours conducted in the vicinity of the Grand Canyon National Park, Arizona, the requirements of SFAR 50-2, part 93, subpart U, and part 119 of this chapter, as applicable, apply.

(3) Ferry or training flights;

(4) Aerial work operations, including—

(i) Crop dusting, seeding, spraying, and bird chasing;

(ii) Banner towing;

(iii) Aerial photography or survey;

(iv) Fire fighting;

(v) Helicopter operations in construction or repair work (but it does apply to transportation to and from the site of operations); and

(vi) Powerline or pipeline patrol;

(5) Sightseeing flights conducted in hot air balloons;

(6) Nonstop flights conducted within a 25-statute-mile radius of the airport of takeoff carrying persons or objects for the purpose of conducting intentional parachute operations.

(7) Helicopter flights conducted within a 25 statute mile radius of the airport of takeoff if—

(i) Not more than two passengers are carried in the helicopter in addition to the required flightcrew;

(ii) Each flight is made under day VFR conditions;

(iii) The helicopter used is certificated in the standard category and complies with the 100-hour inspection requirements of part 91 of this chapter;

(iv) The operator notifies the FAA Flight Standards District Office responsible for the geographic area concerned at least 72 hours before each flight and furnishes any essential information that the office requests;

(v) The number of flights does not exceed a total of six in any calendar year;

(vi) Each flight has been approved by the Administrator; and

(vii) Cargo is not carried in or on the helicopter;

(8) Operations conducted under part 133 of this chapter or 375 of this title;

(9) Emergency mail service conducted under 49 U.S.C. 41906;

(10) Operations conducted under the provisions of §91.321 of this chapter; or

(11) Small UAS operations conducted under part 107 of this chapter.
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Piperboy said:
I work for a 121 operator and have for decades. This will be my first venture into my own operation, and I am still evolving in this area.
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I would suggest that if you've insulated yourself so completely from non-121 commercial flying for so long that a retirement business outside of aviation would probably have a much better chance of success.
 
bobmrg said:
If you receive compensation, even if it is flight time, it is a Part 135 operation. No such thing as "ad hoc."

Bob
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"Ad hoc" as in "overload", v "scheduled".

But apparently it doesn't matter.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I would suggest that if you've insulated yourself so completely from non-121 commercial flying for so long that a retirement business outside of aviation would probably have a much better chance of success.
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Few years ago I toyed with the idea of buying some sort of a franchise. I read about a guy who bought a 7-eleven outfit. Worked 16 hour days. At the end of the year, he netted out $60,000. I can make that much doing something I know well, and have been doing for long time, and really enjoy. Non-aviation activity is not for me. Sorry Winnetou!
 
Didn't we have this thread like 6 months ago ?
 
weilke said:
Didn't we have this thread like 6 months ago ?
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Not really, though closely related. In the previous thread I wanted to see if I could do instruction in the Navajo. Here I expanded to see what other types of work I can do in it, as there might not be enough work teaching in this kind of airplane.
 
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Thanks for your input folks, helps to define better as to what I will do with this airplane.

I read a multi-part article in Twin Cessna Pilot magazine, where the author describes a process of obtaining a part 135 certificate from scratch. It's totally absorbing, and one would have to operate the airplane a lot to make a profit.
 
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Nobody with 20,000 hours wants to fly a Navajo.

Nobody wants to sight-see with a wing in the way.

Nobody wants to pay Navajo prices to get a multi rating.

Nobody wants their Navajo used for multi training.

Nobody with decades of 121 experience calls themselves "Piperboy".

Bye.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
Nobody with 20,000 hours wants to fly a Navajo.

Nobody wants to sight-see with a wing in the way.

Nobody wants to pay Navajo prices to get a multi rating.

Nobody wants their Navajo used for multi training.

Nobody with decades of 121 experience calls themselves "Piperboy".

Bye.

dtuuri
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Pretty much. Anyone with 121 experience should have the legalities of a commercial operating certificate down.

When I asked whether we already had this thread, I was referring to the guy who had 'sold his courier business' and was looking for planes to start some kind of competition to FedEx.

I am still trying to figure out the angle of folks who start those threads. What is the gain ?
 
Bobanna said:
In my language, we call these people "fah'qwads"
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It's all fun and games until Myron the '20,000hr 121' Troll makes up NOTAMs and files real complaints against real pilots with the FAA.
 
dtuuri said:
Nobody with 20,000 hours wants to fly a Navajo.
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You would be surprised with the number of retired airline guys that sent resumes to fly our C-414 and C-425. And the ones hired would stay on the average for about 3 years.

Some would look at the type of flying we did and say no way, some were excited to fly to remote strips in the dark of night.
 
NoHeat said:
The flight was VFR, despite a cloud layer. We climbed slowly at about 200 fpm to 6500, making me wonder what the loss of one engine would do. When we started clipping the tops of the broken cloud layer below us, the pilot found a hole and descended to 2500, to finish crossing Cook's Inlet. Great scenery.
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I can answer that first question to you. OEI would result in a descent and quite likely a crash. Wouldn't be the first Navajo that happened to. Chieftains could barely do OEI when operated within the actual gross weight and all the items that contributed to performance actually worked.

I once did a (legal) visual approach in OVC001 in a Navajo, but that was in Northern Quebec and is another story entirely.
 
weilke said:
It's all fun and games until Myron the '20,000hr 121' Troll makes up NOTAMs and files real complaints against real pilots with the FAA.
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He's still there,but under a different moniker.
 
weilke said:
It's all fun and games until Myron the '20,000hr 121' Troll makes up NOTAMs and files real complaints against real pilots with the FAA.
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weilke said:
Pretty much. Anyone with 121 experience should have the legalities of a commercial operating certificate down.
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Don't associate me with a troll. I am real and genuine, and have all the credentials to prove it, and I understand part 121 operations well.
 
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dtuuri said:
Nobody with 20,000 hours wants to fly a Navajo.

Nobody wants to sight-see with a wing in the way.

Nobody wants to pay Navajo prices to get a multi rating.

Nobody wants their Navajo used for multi training.

Nobody with decades of 121 experience calls themselves "Piperboy".

Bye.

dtuuri
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I want to fly my own Navajo, and enjoy flying it more than any other type, including the Airbus.

From the aft facing second row in a Navajo the view is fantastic, and so is from the third row as well. Those huge, panoramic windows offer some of the best view.

I already have two pilots interested in training in my Navajo. These are successful, influential professionals, where few thousand dollars either way is insignificant.

I sure will use my Navajo to train people.

My nickname is Piperboy.
 
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weilke said:
Pretty much. Anyone with 121 experience should have the legalities of a commercial operating certificate down.
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Well, maybe. Tons of 121 experience does not necessarily equate to knowledge of the 135 or 91 world. All of these questions/scenarios are reasonable for someone who has not been around it at all.

And contrary to apparent popular belief (another post in this thread) it is not necessary to have endured a stint as a night freight pilot to make it to the 121 world.
 
dtuuri said:
Nobody with 20,000 hours wants to fly a Navajo.

Nobody wants to sight-see with a wing in the way.

Nobody wants to pay Navajo prices to get a multi rating.

Nobody wants their Navajo used for multi training.

Nobody with decades of 121 experience calls themselves "Piperboy".

Bye.

dtuuri
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Judgmental, aren't you?
 
You are either not who you claim to be or you got your ATP out of a chewing gum machine. I know a number of airline pilots, none of them ever had an urge to tell me about their hours or the influential people they know. If I had a question on part 119 legalities or op-specs they would be my go-to people. They may not know the answer, but they have a network of contacts like charter operators or aviation attorneys who have those real world answers.

YOU should be the one who can chime in on a thread about part 119/135 operations and fill us in on the details.
 
weilke said:
You are either not who you claim to be or you got your ATP out of a chewing gum machine. I know a number of airline pilots, none of them ever had an urge to tell me about their hours or the influential people they know. If I had a question on part 119 legalities or op-specs they would be my go-to people. They may not know the answer, but they have a network of contacts like charter operators or aviation attorneys who have those real world answers.

YOU should be the one who can chime in on a thread about part 119/135 operations and fill us in on the details.
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I never tell people about my experience, unless someone asks, and someone did ask on the first page of this thread.

I don't operate under part 119/135.
 
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Unfortunately there are a few folks here that seem to doubt anything anyone claims and will say anything to try to disprove someone.

For me, I am with you for wanting to start an aviation business.
 
Thank you Zeldman for the kind words. I have read many of your posts, and like most people here, you post mature, constructive, and interesting stuff.
 
Piperboy said:
I never tell people about my experience, unless someone asks, and someone did ask on the first page of this thread. You doubted it, so I attached a copy of my logbook.

I am not claiming anything here, a nickname, few threads, some posts.
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I guess it's the gumball machine then.
 
weilke said:
YOU should be the one who can chime in on a thread about part 119/135 operations and fill us in on the details.
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Why do you think knowledge of 121 ops equates to expertise on 119/135 operations? They are two separate things.

The only reason I know anything at all about 135 is because I had a LITTLE experience with it early on in my career. And it had nothing at all to do with the owner/operator side of the business.

If all I knew was 121 from a crew perspective, I wouldn't have a clue where to start with a 135 operation.

Give the guy a break. He is just trying to learn what it takes in a 91/135 world.
 
@Piperboy, I'll comment from my experience as a business mentor with SCORE (www.score.org):

Your question is a little like saying: "I've bought myself a band saw. What kind of paid work can I do with it?" The problem is that the market need may not be for bandsaw work. The customers may need to have holes drilled or to have pipes welded.

Two boring old mantras apply: "Find a need and fill it." and "What is your unique selling proposition?" The implications of both is that you don't select tools before you find a market. Then you stock your shelves or your tool box according to what you find.

I'd suggest that you forget about the Navajo even if you already own it. Start looking for aviation-related needs in your area -- ideally needs that are not being served at all, are being inadequately served, or are being badly served. Then put some numbers together, project your revenue and costs to see if there might be a tenable business for you. At that point you can start worrying about the tool box.
 
airdale said:
@Piperboy, I'll comment from my experience as a business mentor with SCORE (www.score.org):

Your question is a little like saying: "I've bought myself a band saw. What kind of paid work can I do with it?" The problem is that the market need may not be for bandsaw work. The customers may need to have holes drilled or to have pipes welded.

Two boring old mantras apply: "Find a need and fill it." and "What is your unique selling proposition?" The implications of both is that you don't select tools before you find a market. Then you stock your shelves or your tool box according to what you find.

I'd suggest that you forget about the Navajo even if you already own it. Start looking for aviation-related needs in your area -- ideally needs that are not being served at all, are being inadequately served, or are being badly served. Then put some numbers together, project your revenue and costs to see if there might be a tenable business for you. At that point you can start worrying about the tool box.
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In other words, get the contract(s) first, then get the plane.
 
Thanks Greg for sorting it all out.
 
Hi airdale. Thanks for your post. I just started reading about SCORE. I will make an appointment with a local mentor.
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
Judgmental, aren't you?
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The irony of that judgment isn't lost on me. Btw, nobody keeps 20,000 hours in minutes. Oh, and how does day time plus night time exceed total time by nine hours, eight minutes? An airline pilot wouldn't carry mistakes forward, they'd fix 'em first.

dtuuri
 
Damn... you guys are rough. Actually rude.

Give the guy a break. I'm miffed why so many people here want to drive off new members.

My electronic log uses minutes vs tenths, and I'm a 20,000 guy.
 
My first few few logbooks are in tenths if an hour. In the airlines we use a clock, to the minute. That is how the flight plans and journey logs are filled. That is how I log it. There is a small discrepancy in the totals, I know that, and I am not correcting it as 9 hours on a twenty thousand hour scale is an insignificant error.
 
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Kritchlow said:
Damn... you guys are rough. Actually rude.

Give the guy a break. I'm miffed why so many people here want to drive off new members.

My electronic log uses minutes vs tenths, and I'm a 20,000 guy.
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I think the reason why some want to drive off new members is that these are weak and insignificant people, and when they see a very experienced pilot like you or myself, they feel threatened, and insecure, and can't "rule" this forum, they can't handle it. It's basic psychology. Remember Fundamentals of Instruction book? It's in there.
 
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Kritchlow said:
Damn... you guys are rough. Actually rude.

Give the guy a break. I'm miffed why so many people here want to drive off new members.

My electronic log uses minutes vs tenths, and I'm a 20,000 guy.
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Oh, c'mon. Nobody wants to drive Piperboy off. NOBODY!

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
Oh, c'mon. Nobody wants to drive Piperboy off. NOBODY!

dtuuri
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That's right dtuuri. I am here to stay and won't go down without a good fight. You should go on and find yourself a "victim" in the lower ranks, better yet at a different forum.
 
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The amount of douchebaggery on PoA is amazing, and amazing that the main practitioners are tolerated by the moderators.
 
dtuuri said:
The irony of that judgment isn't lost on me. Btw, nobody keeps 20,000 hours in minutes. Oh, and how does day time plus night time exceed total time by nine hours, eight minutes? An airline pilot wouldn't carry mistakes forward, they'd fix 'em first.

dtuuri
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And this kind of comment positively contributes to the discussion, how? dtuurri, please go lay by your dish until the urge to be nasty passes. It is completely inappropriate. My favorite internet cartoon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Internet_dog.jpg
 
paflyer said:
The amount of douchebaggery on PoA is amazing, and amazing that the main practitioners are tolerated by the moderators.
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Yup. But God forbid I use $&#* as a joke and I get a vacation.
 
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