Too much airplane?

midwestpa24 said:
All depends on your budget. I know a guy with a 6 six seat, six cylinder travelling machine that uses it to buzz around town and has to limit his flying due to fuel burn.
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I dont understand this. Maybe because I am not an owner, but is 8 or 10gph that much cheaper than 12-14gph? Fuel is about $5 a gallon, so is $20 or $30 an hour more put you over the limit? If flying for 100 hours a year, that makes it $2000/3000 more a year in gas.
 
bradg33 said:
If the wife is happy with the plane, BUY IT NOW. Strike while the iron's hot. I only own my Twin Bo because my wife got excited about it. We gawked (and climbed inside w/ the owner's permission) at one on the ramp at our airport probably 2 years ago, didn't given it a second thought after. Then that airplane came up for sale last summer, and I jokingly sent her the ad saying "Remember that Twin Bo? It's for sale!" Her response was "cool." No't "No," but "cool." That slight distinction got my attention. After some discussion, she was on-board so we pursued briefly. That one didn't work out for a variety of reasons and we kind of put the idea out of mind. Until Oshkosh. We looked at the Twin Bos there, and while walking back to the North 40, we passed to Travel Air's and Twinkies. I said, "we should look at one of these, they're much more practical than a Twin Bonanza." Her response "Yeah, but they're so boring." Me: "Message received, I now understand my instructions!" We were under contract on our TBone around 60 days later. She insisted on going with me to see it initially and for the long ferry flight home. She was probably as excited about the plane as I was/am.
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Geesh!!! And I thought I was lucky that my wife went from never wanting to fly with me to now taking some trips together... Lord I don't need her to get excited about planes... I have a hard enough time restraining myself without her overly enthusiastic support.
 
charheep said:
I dont understand this. Maybe because I am not an owner, but is 8 or 10gph that much cheaper than 12-14gph? Fuel is about $5 a gallon, so is $20 or $30 an hour more put you over the limit? If flying for 100 hours a year, that makes it $2000/3000 more a year in gas.
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If you're already stretching to own, an extra $2-3k may be the breaking point.
 
charheep said:
I dont understand this. Maybe because I am not an owner, but is 8 or 10gph that much cheaper than 12-14gph? Fuel is about $5 a gallon, so is $20 or $30 an hour more put you over the limit? If flying for 100 hours a year, that makes it $2000/3000 more a year in gas.
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You're spot on. Your math is correct with one exception. You're assuming all 100 hours are "overspending on fuel". Let's say half of those hours are legit go somewhere hours. My PA32-301 gets pretty much identical "miles per gallon" as my Cherokee 180 did. 50% faster at 50% more fuel, so I'm not spending any more on fuel if I go somewhere.

The 300 HP Six doesn't cost much more to "fly". It's primary increase in expense is just for owning it. Acquisition cost, OH, insurance, potentially more maintenance (esp if retract), etc.

The guy who limits his joy rides due to a little higher fuel burn really doesn't understand his overall cost of ownership. Sitting in the hangar costs way too much to save on fuel. I go up for a half hour at lunch every week or two if for no other reason than to "stretch her legs".
 
Tspin said:
John,
Not sure where in the Orlando area you are, but Deland Aviation now has a Cherokee 6 in their line up.
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Good to know. I live about 1/2 way between KORL and KSFB. I've flown out of KORL as home base the whole time I've been flying.
 
arkvet said:
You're spot on. Your math is correct with one exception. You're assuming all 100 hours are "overspending on fuel". Let's say half of those hours are legit go somewhere hours. My PA32-301 gets pretty much identical "miles per gallon" as my Cherokee 180 did. 50% faster at 50% more fuel, so I'm not spending any more on fuel if I go somewhere.

The 300 HP Six doesn't cost much more to "fly". It's primary increase in expense is just for owning it. Acquisition cost, OH, insurance, potentially more maintenance (esp if retract), etc.

The guy who limits his joy rides due to a little higher fuel burn really doesn't understand his overall cost of ownership. Sitting in the hangar costs way too much to save on fuel. I go up for a half hour at lunch every week or two if for no other reason than to "stretch her legs".
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Good point. It's actually cheaper for me to fly the Venture somewhere at max cruise than to fly my Grumman. The difference only grows if I slow down.
 
charheep said:
I dont understand this. Maybe because I am not an owner, but is 8 or 10gph that much cheaper than 12-14gph? Fuel is about $5 a gallon, so is $20 or $30 an hour more put you over the limit? If flying for 100 hours a year, that makes it $2000/3000 more a year in gas.
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It's the mindset of what's a extra $X,XXX, that makes one go broke.
 
I've been told "buying the plane is the easy and cheap part" - maintaining is the expensive part. So make sure you look at maintenance and upkeep so you can budget accordingly.

Most of my flying is solo. Most of my flying is 3 to 4 hours away. When I was trying to decide "what" to buy my criteria was: 1,000 mile range, ability to depart with 4 people, full fuel and maybe some bags, and I wanted to cruise around 165-ish. Clearly the fact that I bought a normally aspirated Commander 114 say's something changed somewhere.

First I looked at the planes that were flying that met my criteria - and there weren't many. I think the Socata TB-21 was one of the only ones. I looked at what they were selling for and said - I cannot afford to fly that far, that high and that fast - what do I change. I dropped the speed need, I dropped the 1,000nm range and started looking the useful loads. I built this spreadsheet, color coded to who did the best in each category that was within my budget. I realized I was down to the Commander or the Super-Viking. I could go fast or haul more and be more comfortable - and I looked at a hard question "if something goes awry and I have to sell - is there a ready demand?"

I have more plane than I need 80% of the time in terms of useful load. My speed is okay. I've got 5.5 to 6.0 hours of fuel aboard and will want to find a bathroom before I need fuel. I am ok with that 20% of the time that I need to haul more people or more stuff.

I also made sure I was capable of growing into the plane - that it wasn't too much at the beginning. So far - I am very happy with my decision. My annual is up next month, so I might change my mind then, but, today all is good!

Dean
 
James331 said:
It's the mindset of what's a extra $X,XXX, that makes one go broke.
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"A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money." - Everett Dirksen (supposedly)
 
James331 said:
It's the mindset of what's a extra $X,XXX, that makes one go broke.
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While I agree with your premise I will suggest that if a little extra fuel burn makes one go broke or at the least creates a hangar queen then the mistake was buying the plane to begin with.

Letting a plane fly less because of a higher fuel burn, IMHO, makes absolutely zero sense considering the overall cost of ownership. Emphasis on the "IMHO".
 
Don't buy more than you can afford. And realize that maintenance will be more (much more) than you expect, and more significant than the purchase price. That curve goes up really quick as you add complexity. This is why many twins can be had for less than many singles of the same vintage.
 
If Mrs Cranford is already saying yes, then I'm gonna get my bit of cardboard and magic marker to make a sign

"Will Saftey Pilot for Pie"

(His wife makes REALLY good pies)
 
I am looking at a 182 (actually literally looking because some other party beat me to the punch and I am 2nd now in line), its way more than I need for sure, for next few yrs. my mission rt now is, well get PPL, then IFR. bore holes in the sky, some XC. I am single. may be 2 more adults 10% of the time ... so yeah I definitely don't need a 182. down the road I want to do angel flights and from what I can gather from my very limited knowledge, 182 will fit the bill, I am sure many others will fit the bill as well.

I don't know what will change before I get 500 hrs, if I will be flying the same plane, if I will be alive .. lot of ifs, but based on my long term mission, I figured this is the best route (stable IFR machine, I can actually carry 4 adults if I want, will take me long to grow out of it), I could be completely wrong though.
 
Sending a PM... I own 4 and fly 5 planes at the moment. None are perfect for 1 mission. The V35B is Very nice for traveling... Just to toot around it sucks. Now the Breezy I just bought is a different story :)
 
I always see pilots that start out in fun planes, Cessna 150, 140, 172, Cub, Luscombe, Taylorcraft etc..
Then they catch on with the people who just fly in a straight line to lunches in a Bonanza. They get talked into needing a fast traveling airplane. Guess what? Soon they are no longer at the airport and loose interest in flying because they have no place to go. If my flying consisted of only flying the V35B on lunch flights and traveling I would have quit years ago. The little lightplanes give the most enjoyment just for tooting around. I used to hop in my J-3 at least 4 times a week, hand prop it and just fly around 200 feet above the ground for 30 minutes. That is a stress reliever!
I can't wait to get my new breezy home!
So yes... many people by to much airplane and loose interest really fast!
I don't get some guys that have never flown a fun airplane... I bet 90% have not.
 
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Here is the issue as I see it for me.

I have a go fast go far airplane.

Go fast go far airplanes aren't good or fun or sometimes even safe for "low and slow". They aren't as easy to preflight or pull out of the hangar... they're more complex and more "work" to fly.

What I need is a cub or a husky I can fly with the doors off, when I'm not flying the go fast go far airplane.

It's not that it's too much, it's that it's focused on one mission...


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I told Jcranford he is more than welcome to come do some flying with me. We can toot around in the slow planes, fly upside down in the Model 12 and fly to lunch real fast in the Bonanza. I bet at the end of the day he will like my Cessna 140 or Breezy best.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Yes you can get too fast if you want to sightsee. The Viking and others do not allow your gaze to linger on ground points of interest, they zip by too fast. It would be nice to have a 100hp high wing to putter around the hills on weekends...
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An eloquent explanation for why one needs two airplanes...:cool:
 
JCranford said:
Oh money is definitely in play here. This particular plane is right at the top of the budget we set, but its really really nicely put together.
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Selecting a plane is like shooting billiards - never change your first shot!
 
bradg33 said:
If the wife is happy with the plane, BUY IT NOW. Strike while the iron's hot. I only own my Twin Bo because my wife got excited about it. We gawked (and climbed inside w/ the owner's permission) at one on the ramp at our airport probably 2 years ago, didn't given it a second thought after. Then that airplane came up for sale last summer, and I jokingly sent her the ad saying "Remember that Twin Bo? It's for sale!" Her response was "cool." No't "No," but "cool." That slight distinction got my attention. After some discussion, she was on-board so we pursued briefly. That one didn't work out for a variety of reasons and we kind of put the idea out of mind. Until Oshkosh. We looked at the Twin Bos there, and while walking back to the North 40, we passed to Travel Air's and Twinkies. I said, "we should look at one of these, they're much more practical than a Twin Bonanza." Her response "Yeah, but they're so boring." Me: "Message received, I now understand my instructions!" We were under contract on our TBone around 60 days later. She insisted on going with me to see it initially and for the long ferry flight home. She was probably as excited about the plane as I was/am.
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Bradg - saw the pics of your new TBone on the Viking forum... absolutely beautiful! But the story about the supportive wife is even better. You have achieved a magical combination of airplane ownership and happy wife - you are living the good life!!! I faced perhaps the biggest selling job of my life convincing my wife to warm up to the old triple-tail Bellanca. What did you do with the Viking?
 
I envy you guys who live in areas with cheap tiedown/hangar space.
I pay 168/mo for a tiedown in a field that has 30 plane waitlist for one. Can't afford more than one :(
 
pigpenracing said:
I told Jcranford he is more than welcome to come do some flying with me. We can toot around in the slow planes, fly upside down in the Model 12 and fly to lunch real fast in the Bonanza. I bet at the end of the day he will like my Cessna 140 or Breezy best.
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Aye and there's the rub. Ive flown a Legend Cub and loved it. Fun to fly and just cruise around. However later down the road getting in and out of that thing aint gonna be fun. And I KNOW my wife aint gonna like crawling in and out of it. The 140, Luscome, Husky, et al would be creat too, but I certainly aint gonna fly it to Oregon to visit the In-Laws. At least not in one push. And I cant load it up with stuff to fly to a trade show down in Florida. Which leads me to the current one im looking at. It'll get me to Oregon, both coasts, and carry a buncha stuff. I can land it on grass to go fishing and slow it down to go to lunch. Maybe not slow it down enough to count cows, but I don't own any cows at the moment. Unfortunately owning two or more planes probably isn't in my future. My wife is really supportive of the flying, but not two-planes supportive.
 
pigpenracing said:
Sending a PM... I own 4 and fly 5 planes at the moment. None are perfect for 1 mission. The V35B is Very nice for traveling... Just to toot around it sucks. Now the Breezy I just bought is a different story :)
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Two of my favorites pigpen! Flew a V35B for a contractor for years all over the eastern half of the country. Great airplane. And of course the Breezy, what a hoot!
 
GRG55 said:
An eloquent explanation for why one needs two airplanes...:cool:
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Maybe one or two more, like one that floats in water, and an aerobatic one, so pigpen is right, at least 4 is required. :yesnod: :biggrin:
 
mscard88 said:
Never too fast for sure. :)
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JCranford said:
Haaa, THATS the kinda responses Im looking for!!
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You've never been lost until you've been lost at Mach 3. - Paul F. Crickmore

But yeah, in a piston powered plane more speed is generally a good thing. One can always pull back on the throttle if you need to; not sure why you'd really do that though. ;)
 
Rob58 said:
Bradg - saw the pics of your new TBone on the Viking forum... absolutely beautiful! But the story about the supportive wife is even better. You have achieved a magical combination of airplane ownership and happy wife - you are living the good life!!! I faced perhaps the biggest selling job of my life convincing my wife to warm up to the old triple-tail Bellanca. What did you do with the Viking?
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I still own my share of the Viking, though it feels a bit like climbing into a clown car now :)
 
jsstevens said:
It seems like there are only two ways a plane can be "too much plane":
1) Operating and maintaining it is more than you can or want to afford
2) It is too fast and or too complex for you to operate safely
Other than that, you can fly slower in a faster plane (within reason), and you can carry less in a bigger plane.

I will say the "rent for the other 10%/20% of your mission" is a non starter where I live (Orlando, FL area). There is not a twin nor 6 seat single that is available for (solo) rent anywhere close to me. C-172s, PA-28s, Cirrus (ouch!), yes. Even C-182s. But that's it. So if I really wanted to take my family (3 grown kids, one almost grown kid and my wife) I need a twin. Maybe a higher end Bo or C-210. Nada.

John
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^This.

Renting a plane occasionally for more seats/useful load can be very challenging, expensive and risky. They are not available everywhere to rent. You may need another check-out as you haven't flown it in a some time. The plane and more important the avionics can be quite different from your regular plane making shooting approaches in IMC more risky.

Buy what you can afford, then fly commercial for the remainder. It's also typically easier, cheaper and safer to rent the slow plane for those beautiful days you just want to go around slow and enjoy the scenery.
 
arkvet said:
While I agree with your premise I will suggest that if a little extra fuel burn makes one go broke or at the least creates a hangar queen then the mistake was buying the plane to begin with.

Letting a plane fly less because of a higher fuel burn, IMHO, makes absolutely zero sense considering the overall cost of ownership. Emphasis on the "IMHO".
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Agreed. People think I'm nuts 'cause even though I have a constant speed prop, I never change the setting. I'm at max rpm and max continous power (75%) constantly. The fuel I'd save by using the other book settings is about $2200 or so, depending on hours flown, but I didn't buy the airplane to go slow.
 
Mistake Not... said:
Agreed. People think I'm nuts 'cause even though I have a constant speed prop, I never change the setting. I'm at max rpm and max continous power (75%) constantly. The fuel I'd save by using the other book settings is about $2200 or so, depending on hours flown, but I didn't buy the airplane to go slow.
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Sometimes the best speed you get is by slowing down to an economy cruise in order to skip a fuel stop tho...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
pigpenracing said:
I always see pilots that start out in fun planes, Cessna 150, 140, 172, Cub, Luscombe, Taylorcraft etc..
Then they catch on with the people who just fly in a straight line to lunches in a Bonanza. They get talked into needing a fast traveling airplane. Guess what? Soon they are no longer at the airport and loose interest in flying because they have no place to go. If my flying consisted of only flying the V35B on lunch flights and traveling I would have quit years ago. The little lightplanes give the most enjoyment just for tooting around. I used to hop in my J-3 at least 4 times a week, hand prop it and just fly around 200 feet above the ground for 30 minutes. That is a stress reliever!
I can't wait to get my new breezy home!
So yes... many people by to much airplane and loose interest really fast!
I don't get some guys that have never flown a fun airplane... I bet 90% have not.
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I still fly my PA32-301 around for fun with friends but yeah it's a heavy bird to pull in and out of the hangar. Also it's not the best sight seeing plane. I don't like flying around real low especially when trying to limit speed. Still gets the job done and is by far the best all around plane considering I have 3 kids and we do like to travel.

In the long run I wouldn't mind finding a partner for the Saratoga and take that $ and buy a Cub or something comparable. I've got some property that I could easily put in a grass strip for a STOL plane. Build a barn to keep it in. Yeah, now you got me dreaming at work.
 
pigpenracing said:
I always see pilots that start out in fun planes, Cessna 150, 140, 172, Cub, Luscombe, Taylorcraft etc..
Then they catch on with the people who just fly in a straight line to lunches in a Bonanza. They get talked into needing a fast traveling airplane. Guess what? Soon they are no longer at the airport and loose interest in flying because they have no place to go. If my flying consisted of only flying the V35B on lunch flights and traveling I would have quit years ago. The little lightplanes give the most enjoyment just for tooting around. I used to hop in my J-3 at least 4 times a week, hand prop it and just fly around 200 feet above the ground for 30 minutes. That is a stress reliever!
I can't wait to get my new breezy home!
So yes... many people by to much airplane and loose interest really fast!
I don't get some guys that have never flown a fun airplane... I bet 90% have not.
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First, I disagree a little with your last statement. All airplanes are fun! But I get your point(some are more fun than others) and I love your new Breezy. Always wanted to fly one.

I recently moved and had to leave my partnership in a Scout on floats (in south central Alaska) and I miss the float flying at 80 kts with the windows open, a lot. Now, I live in the Southwest and, let's face it, a lot of the time that extra speed comes in very handy. As somebody already said, if one airplane is impractical, what are two or three? :) I know, practicality is different, depending on the individual. If my budget was a lot bigger, I would definitely need more than one aircraft. I'm shopping for new ride right now and I'm trying to get one that a) is reasonably fast; b) is reasonably thrifty to operate/maintain, year over year ; c) is fun!! I'm leaning toward a Van's, but am looking at a few other possibilities also.
 
JCranford said:
I am currently looking at a particular airplane. It doesn't matter what it is. I already know I should buy a Bo. No it doesn't have a chute or an AOA, so its basically scrap at this point anyway.

Having gotten THAT out of the way...

Did YOU buy 'too much plane'? Is your plane too big or too fast or whatever for 80% of your 'mission', but works REALLY well for that other 20%? I'm overly worried about that part of buying for some reason. I also think I'm trying to hit the sweet spot a little too much (may be the sniper in me..).

My thinking is: You can always put LESS in the plane, or go SLOWER, but you cant put in MORE or go FASTER if it wont do it.
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Yes, I bought 'too much' airplane when I sold my Baron and bought a Beech 18. Yes, it is the perfect family hauler. But truth is, that only accounts for maybe one third of the hours I put on it. Most of the time I fly it either solo or with one other person. 45 gph is a lot of fuel to burn for one or two people.

But, damn it's so much fun!

I have no regrets and love every second of it. I will continue to enjoy and share it as long as I can afford to keep it going.

And no, I won't be putting in an AOA.
 
gsengle said:
Sometimes the best speed you get is by slowing down to an economy cruise in order to skip a fuel stop tho...
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There is some truth to this. I lost 25 kts when I went from the Baron to the Twin Beech. But with the stand up cabin, onboard potty and 6-7 hrs of fuel, I get that speed back by not having to stop and refuel ever 2-2.5 hrs.
 
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