Cessna 210 Crash - Payson, AZ - 4 Dead

ifly4fun said:
I wouldn't limit it to "ads-b alone" - I don't have ADS-B and just pulled up the last 7 flights for my plane, with no flight plan.
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Mode S or on a code?

It's not just ADSB that sends your aircraft ID out.

Heck I've seen ground taxi tracks of planes before getting logged!

I also fail to see how sending my personal info makes anyone "safer", sure helps if you want to track citizens, impose fees, and other BS.



FlyBoyAndy said:
I noticed that my certificate shows issued in 2010 too. That is when I turned in the paper to plastic and changed the number (I think from SS# to another or vice versa). Why did they change the issue date?
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Because they issued you a new ticket.

I recently requested 3 new certs, because they all had different addresses lol, my issue date for my ATP/CFI/GI is now all 2016.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
Were you using Flight Following or otherwise talking to an Approach facility?
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Yes, so there was a code.. otherwise they'd have no way to actually ID me to match the track. But still interesting that its all out there and tracked.
 
Katamarino said:
He did. He had absolutely everything in that airplane, it was the nicest and best equipped 210 I have ever seen. I camped out at Payson, and they were the only other people camping there. It was Skylar's 12th birthday, she'd chosen to fly there for camping, and the next day they were going indoor skydiving as a surprise for the girls.

He showed me around the airplane, it was beautiful. The latest version of absolutely everything; GTNs, glass flight displays, new paint, interior. He was, quite rightly, very proud of it.
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To paraphrase Mark Twain, "history rhymes". From a Flying Magazine article - 53,000 hours, every imaginable type of data one could ask for in the cockpit; one really has to wonder about the human factors at play in this hobby/pastime/profession we pursue:

"...There are quite a few examples of experienced pilots colliding with terrain. In November 2007, two Civil Air Patrol pilots with a total of 53,000 hours of flight time and just about every certificate and rating available flew a new Cessna 182T with a Garmin G1000 glass cockpit into an 8,000-foot mountain 1,000 feet below the summit on a clear night. They were likely distracted because one pilot was demonstrating how to work the G1000 to the other pilot and failed to adequately plan the flight, including checking for terrain.

Narrative:
On November 8, 2007, approximately 1930 Pacific standard time, a Cessna T182T, N881CP, was destroyed after impacting mountainous terrain while in a climb near Potosi Mountain, about 24 nautical miles southwest of Las Vegas, Nevada. The airplane was registered to the Civil Air Patrol, Maxwell Air Force Base, Montgomery, Alabama. Both the left-seat and right-seat certificated airline transport pilots sustained fatal injuries. Visual meteorological dark night conditions prevailed for the 14 CFR Part 91 personal cross-country flight, and a visual flight rules (VFR) flight plan had been filed and activated at the time of the accident. The flight departed the North Las Vegas Airport (VGT), Las Vegas, Nevada, approximately 1915, and was destined for Rosamond, California (L00)..."​
 
Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect. — Captain A. G. Lamplugh

This is a very sad accident. Prayers to the family and friends of those killed. For the rest of us, let this be a lesson. As with the vast majority of aviation accidents, this too was simply pilot error. May we all learn from others mistakes so we don't repeat them our selves.
If you partake in aviation long enough, you will lose friends and acquaintances due to accidents, most of which will be a direct result of, or at the very least contributed to 'Pilot Error'. I’ve lost several myself. We're all human, and we're all susceptible to making mistakes. Learn from others, and learn from your previous ones. Never just brush them off lightly.

Always...

1. Fly the Aircraft. This is your most important job at all times. It’s more important than any other issue at the moment.

2. Never lose situational awareness. Know your Point in space, heading, altitude and distance to next waypoint and from highest obstacle at all times. If you don't know where you are, you're behind the ball. Revert to #1, then begin the process of determining #2.

3. Never blindly trust visual and or sensory clues. Verify everything against instruments and refer to #1.

4. When you find yourself in a bad way, revert to your training. Making up new stuff on the fly rarely works out positively.

5. Don’t panic, stay cool and Fly the Aircraft

If you practice what you’ve been taught, increase your limitations gradually and safely, live by rule #1, and have just a little bit of good luck, you should have a long enjoyable life as a Pilot.
 
Starting to make a little more sense….

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2017/01/cessna-210-centurion-fatal-accident.html

If the details in the kathrynsreport are accurate, it would be consistent with loss of control upon entering IMC with subsequent inflight breakup.

That makes slightly more sense to me. The photos clearly indicate the wreckage is not all in one place.

Terrain warnings won't do you a bit of good if the airplane comes from together…..

And apparently the news is reporting the ex-wife (mother of the kids) was trying to get a court order to keep the daughters from flying in the airplane with dad.

Un….fn'….believable.

People suck sometimes.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Starting to make a little more sense….

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2017/01/cessna-210-centurion-fatal-accident.html

If the details in the kathrynsreport are accurate, it would be consistent with loss of control upon entering IMC with subsequent inflight breakup.

That makes slightly more sense to me. The photos clearly indicate the wreckage is not all in one place.

Terrain warnings won't do you a bit of good if the airplane comes from together…..

And apparently the news is reporting the ex-wife (mother of the kids) was trying to get a court order to keep the daughters from flying in the airplane with dad.

Un….fn'….believable.

People suck sometimes.
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I wouldn't really read too much into the ex, she also said that her daughter will be missed, didn't mention dad, that takes some real ugly hate, also the fact that he ditched her for a smoking hot blonde 13 years is jr, that might have factored too.
 
James331 said:
I wouldn't really read too much into the ex, she also said that her daughter will be missed, didn't mention dad, that takes some real ugly hate, also the fact that he ditched her for a smoking hot blonde 13 years is jr, that might have factored too.
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I'm sure there was plenty of hate. My main point of disgust was that this woman now has to bury her two daughters because of what appears to be the reckless actions of her ex.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I'm sure there was plenty of hate. My main point of disgust was that this woman now has to bury her two daughters because of what appears to be the reckless actions of her ex.
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True
 
Fearless Tower said:
And apparently the news is reporting the ex-wife (mother of the kids) was trying to get a court order to keep the daughters from flying in the airplane with dad.
Un….fn'….believable.
People suck sometimes.
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This really ****es me off if it's true.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I don't get it either. I just can't fathom how a pilot with that kind of modern tech could literally fly into a mountain in those conditions. I mean, how can you not realize you are descending into terrain? This isn't the 1940s.
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Because gadgets are not perfect.

And in many cases, they are easy to use incorrectly. Example: Garmin panel mounts can look at weather OR terrain, but not both at the same time.

It's a wild fallacy to presume that there is a technological solution to everything.

There are many possible explanations, but one is information overload. You can lose SA from too much information. Actually rather easily if accompanied by something unusual or distracting.
 
Unit74 said:
Any idea what the weather was? I'm getting real tired of this mess and want to know WTF is going on with all these GA planes augering recently.
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This is GA - if you look at the FAA accident database, this happens nearly everyday.
 
FlySince9 said:
I know there are VFR guys/gals who have no problem with going over the top with VFR at departure and destination, but I gotta tell ya; I don't think its a good idea for a any NON-IR to lose ground contact for any extended period, especially if the flight is going to take you over rising or unfamiliar terrain. And, if you're going to do it, risking your own neck, at least leave the family home, especially an innocent kid who can't opt out. This stuff is regrettable, it's stupid, its unnecessary. But most of all, it's unforgiveable!
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Lack of weather knowledge and poor ADM before and in-flight does not help. Much of that is not taught as in-depth as it should be in PP training. Many don't take the time to learn on their own. Then the ego gets some of us too. Like Fearless Tower, we have to know when to make that 180 (twice so far) and not be afraid to CCC, if needed. What is the worst that could happen to me? Maybe a suspension, training and a ride. The other choice is not a good option.
 
labbadabba said:
This really ****es me off if it's true.
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Which part? That a court order was attempted? If you read the article, it states that she specifically wanted the order because she felt he was too inexperienced as a pilot, not because she had an undefined fear of her girls flying GA.

Obviously, I don't have full context on what was going on in that family. Maybe this was a crazy ex-wife request and this accident was an anomaly for an otherwise fairly safe pilot. Or maybe the ex knew something about his decision making, and this result is exactly what she knew he was capable of. Or...something in between.

Unless you know something I don't, the fact that a court order was sought doesn't tell us a whole lot of anything about the situation. We have only one data point: an apparent VFR-into-IMC fatal accident.
 
arnoha said:
Which part? That a court order was attempted? If you read the article, it states that she specifically wanted the order because she felt he was too inexperienced as a pilot, not because she had an undefined fear of her girls flying GA.

Obviously, I don't have full context on what was going on in that family. Maybe this was a crazy ex-wife request and this accident was an anomaly for an otherwise fairly safe pilot. Or maybe the ex knew something about his decision making, and this result is exactly what she knew he was capable of. Or...something in between.

Unless you know something I don't, the fact that a court order was sought doesn't tell us a whole lot of anything about the situation. We have only one data point: an apparent VFR-into-IMC fatal accident.
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The one known data point (combined with the loss of 3 innocent lives) is sufficient to pi$$ any pilot off.

As far as the domestic situation. Sounds like it was ugly no matter how you look at it and there are always two sides.

Local news is apparently all over it. From BeechTalk, the latest report is the divorce agreement itself said the kids couldn't fly with dad unless a flight plan was filed and a commercial pilot was onboard. Sounds like a real drama situation if true. I have no clue what the guy's estate is worth, but I'm sure every lawyer in the Phoenix area is blowing this woman's phone up right now.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The one known data point (combined with the loss of 3 innocent lives) is sufficient to pi$$ any pilot off.

As far as the domestic situation. Sounds like it was ugly no matter how you look at it and there are always two sides.

Local news is apparently all over it. From BeechTalk, the latest report is the divorce agreement itself said the kids couldn't fly with dad unless a flight plan was filed and a commercial pilot was onboard. Sounds like a real drama situation if true. I have no clue what the guy's estate is worth, but I'm sure every lawyer in the Phoenix area is blowing this woman's phone up right now.
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I guess I may have misread @labbadabba in that I read him being ****ed at there being a court order. If it was meant to read that he was ****ed about there being warning signs, well, yeah, I can definitely see that. Still...I have no idea if the ex was making a reasonable request based on experience or just an overreaction that happened to come true this time. I guess it wasn't clear to me who @labbadabba was ****ed at, so I made an assumption.

However, that extra piece of information in the divorce agreement is telling. It really underlines that it appears that the request was reasonably framed and addressed an actual concern instead of a general fear of GA flying. Also, he willingly violated a legal agreement, if this is true, which also doesn't speak well to his decision making. So, there's two more data points.

I will agree that I'm ****ed that a pilot that should have known better made bad decisions that resulted in an accident that, right now, looks to have been completely avoidable. It killed four people, including two children that he was guardian for. It apparently violated a divorce agreement. And any accident like this has reverberations for our chosen mode of transport.

Just a couple weeks ago, a co-worker of mine was denied a flight with me by his wife. JFK, Jr.'s accident was cited. (The decision wasn't based on anything about my plane or my qualifications specifically, but a general distrust of GA flying.)
 
CC268 said:
This one hits close to home...very sad. Sometimes I can't help but re-evaluate this hobby.

http://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/arizona-news/226815098-story
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C'mon people. A dozen or two people died in automobile/home falls/just plain stupids this weekend and we get all uptight about a single aircraft accident. Yes, it is regrettable. Yes, it should not have happened with sufficient instruction. Neither should the other dozen in the mix, but it isn't the end of the world. We learn, or we suffer the same fate.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
C'mon people. A dozen or two people died in automobile/home falls/just plain stupids this weekend and we get all uptight about a single aircraft accident. Yes, it is regrettable. Yes, it should not have happened with sufficient instruction. Neither should the other dozen in the mix, but it isn't the end of the world. We learn, or we suffer the same fate.

Jim
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What makes me angry is that as GA pilots we are all ambassadors for our hobby and or profession. When you have pilots that get their family killed doing stuff like this, it's a bad look. Yes, people die in car accidents, falls, etc. That is a known risk most people have accepted as part of everyday life. When some dude fires up his plane and CFITs his kids in weather it makes national news. For those of us who have wives that already question whether or not it's safe to travel with daddy in his small airplane this makes the argument all the more difficult. Sure you can explain it away as a bad decision but the stigma remains.
 
I'll certainly be going to this after what happened this week...

"Arizona Winter Weather Flying Conditions"
Topic: Weather phenomena in Arizona and its considerations for flight safety. Emphasis on inflight icing.
On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 19:00 Arizona
Location:
Honeywell Facility, Deer Valley
21111 N. 19th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ

Phoenix, AZ 85027
Select Number:
WP0773161
Description:
Considerations of various winter weather phenomena across AZ presented as a video and discussion of pilot planning and decision making, as related to flight safety and compliance with regulatory requirements for VFR and IFR flight.
To view further details and registration information for this seminar, click here.
 
James331 said:
that takes some real ugly hate,
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Or, perhaps more charitably, anger. I think that is a fairly normal emotion in a situation like this. I wouldn't assign such a negative description to her for some second hand account of how she is reacting in the absolute worst moments of her life.
 
BigBadLou said:
Call me an old curmudgeon but when did Kahtryn's report turn from a factual report webpage to a FecesBook fest of how much somebody was liked in their school and what grades they got??
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I was mostly going off the photos.
 
CC268 said:
Wow...so this guy took off at NIGHT on pretty much a moonless night...let alone to Telluride Colorado which is swamped with mountains...and it was pretty hard IFR in Payson...with his family...WOW.
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no disrespect to the deceased, but I was just thinking about this. As if the pilot thought he would magically get a x-ray / radar vision when airborne
 
Fearless Tower said:
I was mostly going off the photos.
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FWIW, my post was a rhetorical question to point out the change on their website, it was not aimed at anyone here or you specifically.
I just went to the Kathryn'r Report page for a REPORT and found a lot of s**t that belongs more on FecesBook. Oh well, I guess I am getting old. I used to like her page. It was good while it lasted. :)
 
BigBadLou said:
FWIW, my post was a rhetorical question to point out the change on their website, it was not aimed at anyone here or you specifically.
I just went to the Kathryn'r Report page for a REPORT and found a lot of s**t that belongs more on FecesBook. Oh well, I guess I am getting old. I used to like her page. It was good while it lasted. :)
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Tell them about it! Maybe they'll clean it up.
 
WannFly said:
no disrespect to the deceased, but I was just thinking about this. As if the pilot thought he would magically get a x-ray / radar vision when airborne
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There by the grace of god and all that.

If you're VFR only, weather sometimes does stuff it isn't sposed to, clouds are tuff to see at night, given enough flight hours you WILL end up in a IMC, hopefully by accident, it's just a numbers game.

Professional VFR only pilots have IIMC checklists and procedures, if you're a VFR type, best incorporate this into your recurrent, and no it's not just the hood stuff your CFI did with you.

Couple good ones

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...ment_procedures_handbook/media/Appendix_A.pdf

http://alea.org/images/Safety_Program_Overview/IIMC_Training_Recommendations.pdf

http://www.ihst.org/portals/54/insights/training_iimc.pdf


Long and short, act as if it WILL someday happen, plan and train as such.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Is anyone else bothered by the idea that you can be openly tracked on FlightAware by your ADS-B signal alone?
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Yes, somewhat, though despite being a rather strong privacy advocate, I have pretty much given up all hope of any privacy with respect to flying.
 
BigBadLou said:
Call me an old curmudgeon but when did Kahtryn's report turn from a factual report webpage to a FecesBook fest of how much somebody was liked in their school and what grades they got??
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I think they often link to what they consider "relevant" news articles published about the accident in the mainstream media, as "background material". In this case that's what they did, transcluding the article from ABC news. I see your point that it makes the Kathryn record appear cheesy, but I guess for them to censor it in some way could introduce other issues. The alternative would be to just link to it (instead of transclusion), but I guess that's an editorial decision. The bottom line is that it's not KR that is writing that article, but a third party mainstream media journalist.
 
James331 said:
There by the grace of god and all that.

If you're VFR only, weather sometimes does stuff it isn't sposed to, clouds are tuff to see at night, given enough flight hours you WILL end up in a IMC, hopefully by accident, it's just a numbers game.

Professional VFR only pilots have IIMC checklists and procedures, if you're a VFR type, best incorporate this into your recurrent, and no it's not just the hood stuff your CFI did with you.

Couple good ones

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...ment_procedures_handbook/media/Appendix_A.pdf

http://alea.org/images/Safety_Program_Overview/IIMC_Training_Recommendations.pdf

http://www.ihst.org/portals/54/insights/training_iimc.pdf


Long and short, act as if it WILL someday happen, plan and train as such.
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Agree, and accidental IMC is different, it seems like he took off with 600 ft ceiling? That may be pushing the boundaries of VFR. I am very low time student, and don't think myself as invincible any more, but the conditions he took off seems unrealistic to me

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
WannFly said:
Agree, and accidental IMC is different, it seems like he took off with 600 ft ceiling? That may be pushing the boundaries of VFR. I am very low time student, and don't think myself as invincible any more, but the conditions he took off seems unrealistic to me

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
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He didn't take off into a 600' ceiling. It was VFR at SDL when he departed. The 600' ceiling was at Payson near where he crashed.

Overflying an area with low ceilings isn't necessarily bad, provided you are clear above the cloud layer and it is VFR where you are heading.

He probably thought he could get above the clouds or at least between layers and proceed to Telluride.
 
WannFly said:
Agree, and accidental IMC is different, it seems like he took off with 600 ft ceiling? That may be pushing the boundaries of VFR. I am very low time student, and don't think myself as invincible any more, but the conditions he took off seems unrealistic to me

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
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As TWR said that wasn't the case, here's a quote from the ADSB tracks and wx I posted on page 1

James331 said:
Here ya go

image.jpg



image.jpg




Weather +1 / -1 hr from crash

METAR/SPECI from KPAN,

SA 02/01/2017 19:55->
METAR KPAN 021955Z AUTO VRB04KT 10SM OVC006 03/02 A3010 RMK AO2=

SA 02/01/2017 19:35->
METAR KPAN 021935Z AUTO VRB04KT 10SM BKN007 OVC020 02/01 A3011 RMK AO2=

SA 02/01/2017 19:15->
METAR KPAN 021915Z AUTO VRB05G11KT 10SM OVC006 02/01 A3011 RMK AO2=

SA 02/01/2017 18:55->
METAR KPAN 021855Z AUTO VRB04G10KT 10SM OVC006 02/02 A3012 RMK AO2=

SA 02/01/2017 18:35->
METAR KPAN 021835Z AUTO VRB05KT 10SM OVC005 02/02 A3012 RMK AO2=

SA 02/01/2017 18:15->
METAR KPAN 021815Z AUTO VRB05KT 10SM OVC004 02/02 A3013 RMK AO2=

SA 02/01/2017 17:55->
METAR KPAN 021755Z AUTO VRB05KT 10SM OVC005 02/02 A3012 RMKAO2=

SA 02/01/2017 17:35->
METAR KPAN 021735Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM OVC004 02/02 A3012 RMKAO2=

SA 02/01/2017 17:15->
METAR KPAN 021715Z AUTO VRB04KT 10SM OVC004 02/01 A3012 RMK AO2=



METAR/SPECI from KSDL

SA 02/01/2017 19:53->
METAR KSDL 021953Z 13003KT 10SM CLR 13/03 A3007 RMK AO2 SLP175 T01280028=

SA 02/01/2017 18:53->
METAR KSDL 021853Z 14004KT 10SM CLR 12/03 A3010 RMK AO2 SLP184 T01220028=

SA 02/01/2017 17:53->
METAR KSDL 021753Z 15004KT 10SM CLR 12/04 A3011 RMK AO2 SLP189 T01170039 10117 20089 53019=



Looks like he took off in good weather and flew from VMC into IMC conditions, according the the FAA website Eric did not hold a instrument ticket.
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James331 said:
There by the grace of god and all that.

If you're VFR only, weather sometimes does stuff it isn't sposed to, clouds are tuff to see at night, given enough flight hours you WILL end up in a IMC, hopefully by accident, it's just a numbers game.
.
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Right, but when one does, do a 180 and GTF outta there. If that guy had turned around and landed at a VFR airport, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Right, but when one does, do a 180 and GTF outta there. If that guy had turned around and landed at a VFR airport, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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Sometimes a 180 isn't the best idea, that's the difference between IIMC training and the standard low level intial PPL hood training.
 
James331 said:
Sometimes a 180 isn't the best idea, that's the difference between IIMC training and the standard low level intial PPL hood training.
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When? He couldn't descend, in this case. Climb? What are the tops? How long will you be in the soup? How widespread is the area of LIFR?
 
Bill Jennings said:
When? He couldn't descend, in this case. Climb? What are the tops? How long will you be in the soup? How widespread is the area of LIFR?
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Not as many options in mountainous terrain like Bill states. Awareness is very important and having an "out", as always, is a must. IFR Enroute charts have minimum altitudes and sectionals have altitudes in each quad angle that one should be aware of, especially so in terrain like this example.
 
Bill Jennings said:
When? He couldn't descend, in this case. Climb? What are the tops? How long will you be in the soup? How widespread is the area of LIFR?
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When there are things you might hit.

The cloud isn't going to hurt you, it's the stuff on the ground which can mess your day up.

Many times climbing to a safe altitude based in your charts before executing the turn is the way to go.

Also making a sudden turn right as you enter IMC as a VFR pilot has its own risks, often slowing down mentally is the best thing to do, get the plane flying level, climb to a safe altitude, fess up and declare, get let them know what you need, be it a turn or vectors to VMC, etc.

Mindlessly starting a 180 the second you get into it, great way to pull a Kennedy.
 
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