Spraying water into a hot engine

Horse

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All, I'd appreciate a little help/advice. I'm in a situation where I'm being accused of causing damage to a hot engine from water being sprayed into it. Any white papers or studies would be thankfully accepted.
 
Think what happens when you fly into a heavy rainstorm.

Does the POH prohibit flights into rain? The POH is your Exhibit A.
 
explain the situation ....in detail? Washing a plane after a flight?.....or hosing down a freshly hot engine?

Water mist or a non-direct stream into the cowl while washing is a non-event IMHO.
 
I was doing a long XC with my CFI. We did a soft field landing on a muddy field. At the next stop he went to the desk while I filled up. There was a hose right there by the pumps so I sprayed down the undercarriage to remove some of the mud also where it sprayed up on the underside of the wing. While I was there I had this idea to spray down the engine to cool it down so the restart wouldn't be such a ***** like it always is. I'm spraying down the engine well and good and there was this crack sound like you'd expect when stuff cools down. Next thing I see is my CFI sprinting over screaming bulging veins on his face now he says we need it xrayed or something. He says I probably cracked it.

The comment about rain makes sense. I'm going to tell him to go suck an egg or something.
 
All, I'd appreciate a little help/advice. I'm in a situation where I'm being accused of causing damage to a hot engine from water being sprayed into it. Any white papers or studies would be thankfully accepted.
There are several things I'd like to know.
what engine? how hot? how much water?
we do salt de-contamination on running engines, by flushing with fresh water while the engine is running. If your accusers believe you did a flash cooling by spraying water in the engine, make them prove that can cause damage.
 
It's called shock cooling, air cooled engines do not like it. I had a neighbor kill a perfectly good lawn boy mower by hosing it down while hot. He actually heard it go "tink" and it never ran again.
 
Think what happens when you fly into a heavy rainstorm.

Does the POH prohibit flights into rain? The POH is your Exhibit A.


I would think that there's a huge difference between a running engine getting wet (it's still producing heat to minimize rapid cooling) and a stopped engine being sprayed down.

I'll defer to @Ted DuPuis but I can envision real, significant damage being done to a hot, stopped engine if it's thoroughly "sprayed off" shortly after shutting down.
 
I'm spraying down the engine well and good and there was this crack sound like you'd expect when stuff cools down. Next thing I see is my CFI sprinting over screaming bulging veins on his face now he says we need it xrayed or something. He says I probably cracked.
Yes, that was a foolish thing to do. You never want to wash down a hot engine taking if from 300 degrees to 75 degrees in a short period of time. It thermal shocks the metal. It IS very likely that you did damage the engine.
 
I was never allowed to wash the lawn mower right after mowing. I was always told with mowers and 4-wheelers, etc. that they had to be running when you sprayed them off or it could damage them. I'm not sure I always followed that advice though.
 
Shock cooling is definitely a possibility if the water you sprayed into the cowling was pretty cold. Is your CFI now trying to have you pay for the suspected damage?
 
Why in the world would you do that?...
 
The bigger issue is that you have to know when to take the initiative in aviation, when to slow down, think, ask the experts.
 
I was doing a long XC with my CFI. We did a soft field landing on a muddy field. At the next stop he went to the desk while I filled up. There was a hose right there by the pumps so I sprayed down the undercarriage to remove some of the mud also where it sprayed up on the underside of the wing. While I was there I had this idea to spray down the engine to cool it down so the restart wouldn't be such a ***** like it always is. I'm spraying down the engine well and good and there was this crack sound like you'd expect when stuff cools down. Next thing I see is my CFI sprinting over screaming bulging veins on his face now he says we need it xrayed or something. He says I probably cracked it.

The comment about rain makes sense. I'm going to tell him to go suck an egg or something.
Plan on getting a new instructor... and being sued. That sucks.
 
And you flew it home without oil spraying out of a crack or the engine coming apart? Strike one.

The CFI left a student alone with an airplane during a lesson? Strike two.

And, as the rest of the gang pointed out, in a real heavy rainstorm REALLY cold water comes in the cowl air cooling holes and sprays all over the engine without damage WHILE IT IS RUNNING HOTTER THAN HELL. Strike three, they are out.

Having said that, you can be sued for putting your pants on the morning left leg first. Winning is something else. Check your homeowner's policy for liability insurance and the provisions thereof. You MAY be able to get the insurance company to defend you if you can find a section of the policy for stupid acts without thinking.

Jim
 
Would renters insurance cover this?
 
Yes, that was a foolish thing to do. You never want to wash down a hot engine taking if from 300 degrees to 75 degrees in a short period of time. It thermal shocks the metal. It IS very likely that you did damage the engine.
I very much doubt the CHTs will be 300 degrees after decent and taxi. and a shut down.
besides,, shock cooling has been disproven many times.
If water cooling after shut down will harm any aluminum structure why doesn't it harm that structure while quenching after heat treatment?
 
I very much doubt the CHTs will be 300 degrees after decent and taxi. and a shut down.
besides,, shock cooling has been disproven many times.
If water cooling after shut down will harm any aluminum structure why doesn't it harm that structure while quenching after heat treatment?
You may be talking about in flight shock cooling, and that may or may not be disproven.

Are engine cylinders quenched? Never heard of that.
 
Tom....what happens when you don't quench evenly?....just half the part?
 
shock cooling has been disproven many times.
I think the shock cooling you are refering to is air cooling on decent. I agree there is minimal chance of doing serious damage from air cooling. Air cooling is a much slower process than water cooling. The human body operates at 98.6 degrees and is perfectly happy with an air temperature of 72. Get in 72 degree water and you will start experiencing hypothermia in a short amount of time because of the waters ability to draw heat from the body. A similar situation will occur washing a hot engine down with 70 degree water. It RAPIDLY cools down the outer metal of the engine setting up severe stress across the thickness of the metal since the metal is still very hot on the inside. These stresses can cause stress cracks and possibly brittle fracture. If you could provide the same amount of cooling to the inside of the engine that you did the outside, there would be less chance of damage, but when you only supply rapid cooling to the outside it really stresses the block of metal.
 
Biggest issue here is your lack of confidence in hot start techniques. Done properly, hot starting should not be hard to do.

That said, it sounds like the engine had been shut down for while. Your instructor went inside, you fueled up, washed the wings, and then sprayed the engine? I seriously doubt any damage was done. After shutting the engine down and putting the plane away I always hear various cracks and creaks coming from under the cowling as it naturally cools down--none of which are abnormal or problematic. If he really thought you damaged the plane, why did you fly back in it without having the mechanic inspect it first? I wouldn't sweat it, but I wouldn't do it again, either.
 
The engine was probably off for a good 20-30 minutes before I started spraying the water into it. So it was definitely not super hot right after shutting off. There was hardly any steam it was not dramatic at all with maybe just a few creaks and cracks as it cooled down. How would we know if there is any damage? What is the damage that would happen maybe a cracked cylinder?
 
How would we know if there is any damage? What is the damage that would happen maybe a cracked cylinder?
No runup or engine abnormalities that you noticed? The way you described your CFI almost going into cardiac arrest after this happened, surprises me he wasn't eager to call in a mechanic before flying it home.
 
I think the shock cooling you are refering to is air cooling on decent. I agree there is minimal chance of doing serious damage from air cooling. Air cooling is a much slower process than water cooling. The human body operates at 98.6 degrees and is perfectly happy with an air temperature of 72. Get in 72 degree water and you will start experiencing hypothermia in a short amount of time because of the waters ability to draw heat from the body. A similar situation will occur washing a hot engine down with 70 degree water. It RAPIDLY cools down the outer metal of the engine setting up severe stress across the thickness of the metal since the metal is still very hot on the inside. These stresses can cause stress cracks and possibly brittle fracture. If you could provide the same amount of cooling to the inside of the engine that you did the outside, there would be less chance of damage, but when you only supply rapid cooling to the outside it really stresses the block of metal.
During manufacturing processes the case and cylinder heads under go heat treatment much more severe that anything that can happen during usage.
 
No runup or engine abnormalities that you noticed? The way you described your CFI almost going into cardiac arrest after this happened, surprises me he wasn't eager to call in a mechanic before flying it home.

No nothing unusual and it started a whole lot easier than normal. Yes he was in full blown panic mode. I'm not proud of myself but I called him a ***** when he didn't want to try it. My point was if there is a problem we will figure it out pretty quickly. I made not sense to just sit there and cry and wring our hands. Everything was fine. He was sullen on the trip back then said he was going to take it up with maintenance. Look, if there is an issue I will take responsibility but I'm not going to pay for some ******** wild goose chase trying to find an issue.
 
I'm not proud of myself but I called him a ***** when he didn't want to try it. My point was if there is a problem we will figure it out pretty quickly. I made not sense to just sit there and cry and wring our hands. Everything was fine.
This is the kind of mental that gets people killed, hate to say it. Cussing someone out because they dont want to potentially put themselves in a dangerous situation..? The "lets just do it" will end up coming back around and biting you between your cheeks if you keep this mindset up down the road. Granted, you hopefully would've found an impending issue on the ground if there had been one, but you didn't know if "everything was fine".
 
You may be talking about in flight shock cooling, and that may or may not be disproven.

Are engine cylinders quenched? Never heard of that.

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/aluminumwelding/achieving-t6-designation-for-6061

Solution heat treatment is done by raising the alloy temperature to about 980 degrees F and holding it there for about an hour. The purpose of this is to dissolve all the alloying elements in a solid solution in the aluminum. Then we quench the alloy in water. The purpose of quenching isn't really to strengthen the alloy, although it does somewhat; it is to cool it rapidly enough to prevent the alloying elements from precipitating on cooling.

read the whole article.

each manufacturers have their on processes but none have a alloy that can be changed or cracked by the temps in service or in this case less than 300 degrees to ambient.
we actually weld these cylinders, then normalize at much higher temps than will be found in service.
 
This is the kind of mental that gets people killed, hate to say it. Cussing someone out because they dont want to potentially put themselves in a dangerous situation..? The "lets just do it" will end up coming back and biting you between your cheeks if you keep this mindset up down the road. Granted, you hopefully would've found an impending issue on the ground if there had been one, but you didn't know if "everything was fine".

I don't agree at all. I didn't ask him to fly I just said "let's start it up and do a run up". If the friggin' engine was cracked like he claimed we'd figure it out pretty quickly before we even took off. He's a younger CFI not much commonsense not much experience. I'm going to guess early 20's. I've been around the block myself a few times.
 
http://www.thefabricator.com/article/aluminumwelding/achieving-t6-designation-for-6061

Solution heat treatment is done by raising the alloy temperature to about 980 degrees F and holding it there for about an hour. The purpose of this is to dissolve all the alloying elements in a solid solution in the aluminum. Then we quench the alloy in water. The purpose of quenching isn't really to strengthen the alloy, although it does somewhat; it is to cool it rapidly enough to prevent the alloying elements from precipitating on cooling.

read the whole article.

each manufacturers have their on processes but none have a alloy that can be changed or cracked by the temps in service or in this case less than 300 degrees to ambient.
we actually weld these cylinders, then normalize at much higher temps than will be found in service.
Normalizing is pretty much the opposite of shock cooling.
 
This is the kind of mental that gets people killed, hate to say it. Cussing someone out because they dont want to potentially put themselves in a dangerous situation..? The "lets just do it" will end up coming back around and biting you between your cheeks if you keep this mindset up down the road. Granted, you hopefully would've found an impending issue on the ground if there had been one, but you didn't know if "everything was fine".
IF I were the administrator, I'd include an engine management course requirement for each CPL/CFI's training.
 
The engine is fine, but still not a good idea to be soaking it with water, don't do it again.
 
Normalizing is pretty much the opposite of shock cooling.
I was referring to the temps involved and the rate of change to get it done. much greater that what occurred here.
 
What is lost in all of this is that the restart was one of the easiest restarts I've had with an engine only shut down 30 minutes previously.
 
What is lost in all of this is that the restart was one of the easiest restarts I've had with an engine only shut down 30 minutes previously.
I think there's many more lessons to be learned here than that. Spraying a hot engine with water to make for an easier start is totally incorrect.
 
During manufacturing processes the case and cylinder heads under go heat treatment much more severe that anything that can happen during usage.
Heat treatment is very different. If a metal is extremely hard it can be brittle, too soft or elastic and it can be weak. Heat treatment is a VERY CONTROLLED process where the metal is treated to create the optium balance between the two for the application in which the metal will be used. During a heat treatment I think you will find that the stresses across the metal is very controlled to be very even so it will evenly create the desired properties through the entire piece of metal. When you have a condition where the metal is extrely hot on one side and cold on the other, undesirable stresses are created across the thickness of the metal, nothing like a heat treatment process. Furthermore, spraying down a hot engine with cold water is NOT 'what can happen during usage', not normal usage anyway. While spraying down the engine might not create a fatal crack the first time, it can weaken the metal so that it will be less resilient next time it is stressed. A simple layman example would be to bend a coat hanger in half and straighten it back out. The first time you do this you won't break the hanger, but when repeated it will eventually break. Applying abnormal stresses across metal from thermal shock can eventually have the same effect.
 
http://www.thefabricator.com/article/aluminumwelding/achieving-t6-designation-for-6061

Solution heat treatment is done by raising the alloy temperature to about 980 degrees F and holding it there for about an hour. The purpose of this is to dissolve all the alloying elements in a solid solution in the aluminum. Then we quench the alloy in water. The purpose of quenching isn't really to strengthen the alloy, although it does somewhat; it is to cool it rapidly enough to prevent the alloying elements from precipitating on cooling.

read the whole article.

each manufacturers have their on processes but none have a alloy that can be changed or cracked by the temps in service or in this case less than 300 degrees to ambient.
we actually weld these cylinders, then normalize at much higher temps than will be found in service.
OMG...solid phase behavior used as an argument to counter cooling rates with dissimilar materials...lots of folks misconstrue...lots of folks on POA misconstrue...but this is bad.
 
It's called shock cooling, air cooled engines do not like it. I had a neighbor kill a perfectly good lawn boy mower by hosing it down while hot. He actually heard it go "tink" and it never ran again.

Funny, I hosed off the family Lawn Boy after every use for years with no apparent ill effects. I even would start hosing it off with it still running. It lasted about 40 years before it was so worn out that we finally had to replace it. It would pop and tink all the time while hosing it down.

For what it's worth, neither air cooled or water cooled engines like large temperature changes. At work I often set up head crack tests on water cooled diesels. We run the engine for a predetermined number of temperature cycles more extreme than it will ever see in real life then disassemble the engine to see how much the head is moving around (head gasket sealing) and if it is cracked. If everything passes we often put the engine back together and do it again. I've honestly seen way more cracked water cooled heads than I have air cooled ones.

As for the OP and his problem, I seriously doubt any damage was done.
 
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