strangebird
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Kool aid - Kool aid taste great, what flavor you been drinking.? The one with an O in it?
BY the way the KKK are not a Christian religion, so don't even compare them to a Christian religion
Paris attack.... how might we protect ourselves?
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Kool aid - Kool aid taste great, what flavor you been drinking.? The one with an O in it?
BY the way the KKK are not a Christian religion, so don't even compare them to a Christian religion
JoseCuervo
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So, instead of 4 guys shooting in the concert hall, you would advocate 104 people start shooting.
That would definitely get the body count up, with all sorts of gunmen popping up from every direction, lots of good crossfire, lot of wanna-be John Wayne's shooting each other.
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JoseCuervo
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The long distance mental illness diagnosed by somebody who has never met the person they are declaring mentally ill.
JoseCuervo
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Have you ever lived where "ordinary life" does not include the certainty of a meal?
Where "ordinary life" means you have little to look forward to in the future?
Good to see your credentials come from Wikipedia.
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yeah, because everyone with CCW is an idiot.
How are the "gifted" 100 going to know which person with a gun in a concert hall is a good guy and which is a bad guy?
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I will bet you that over a hundred shooters shooting at 4, would have had a better result than 4 shooting at hundreds.
Collateral damage, you bet, but far less than what happened.
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Really doesn't matter because we ain't changing large venue security and if we did there is always some other soft target/gun free/unlikely zone. You guys are prepping for the last attack, that was so yesterday.
Mtns2Skies
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wait what?
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/kkk-using-isis-taliban-terror-tactics-wage-christian-jihad-us-1491746
What kool-aid do you drink? one where your religion is absolutely perfect and everyone else's is wrong? gee that sounds a lot like extremist behavior. A lot like what terrorists think.
"The Klan aren't calling for a racial war anymore; they're calling for a racial and a religious war. In fact, they're calling for a Christian Jihad, nothing more, nothing less, and they claim their attacks on anti-whites and anti-Christians are sanctioned by God."
I don't blame you for what terrorist acts the Klan commits. Why blame all Muslims for what some extremists do?
On another note I think if more people were armed if wouldn't matter who we let in the country because they would be put down immediately.
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JoseCuervo
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How do you know which 4 to shoot at?
How do you know there aren't 5 or 6 or 96?
You don't. There are no teams, no squads, no uniforms, just 104 guys in a concert hall blazing away.
If I was carrying, I would shoot the closest of the 103 guys to me, as he is my biggest threat, and most danger to me.
JoseCuervo
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Agreed......
Drop the terrorists in their tracks....
Which ones are the terrorists in a darkened concert hall with loud music, dark lighting, and 104 guys with guns?
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Velocity173
This has nothing to do with food. We've been over this. Where in ISIS ideology do they claim killing for food?
Ok, if you don't like Wiki. http://i.word.com/imedical/mental disorder
These people committed suicide. Do you seriously believe someone commiting suicide is of sound mind?
Jimmy cooper
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Your wasting your time ! They've seen too many Hollywood movies with John Wayne ( draft evader) and others like him shooting up bars, mowing down commie soldiers, etc. Had everyone in that theatre or maybe just fifty theatre goers been armed it would have been far worse.
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If you knew anything about gun control you'd not ask questions like that.
Major gun rule "know your target"
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Next one will be even easier, throw a pack of firecrackers in an armed crowd and watch the gunslingers kill each other and random others.
Next one will be even easier, throw a pack of firecrackers in an armed crowd and watch the gunslingers kill each other and random others.
Anti-gunners all think alike.
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Anti-gunners all think alike.
Proof you don't know your target. I am as pro gun as it gets. I just have little faith in gun braggarts abilities to perform under stress. More carrying would be a good thing in general, but if you think the average fatty gunslinger is going to win against a surprise shoot up you probably don't have the judgement to carry.
mr_happyland
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Love all these John McClane-types around here ready to take down the bad guys. Yippee-ki-yay, motherf'er. Then they kiss the girl and get driven away by the ambulance.
To go back to the OP question....these terrorists had what any military team tries to achieve: the element of surprise. Being involved in a mass shootout was the last thing on these concert goers minds. The chaos and confusion that ensued must have been intense. In an instant there were thousands of people screaming and then trampling each other as they run for the exits.The human body has an automatic impulse to drop down or escape the situation. The gunmen had the tactical advantage and as a result could inflict a high casualty rate before they could be taken down. They were prepared for that scenario by strapping bombs to themselves.
I don't know what security was like to get into this venue, but I can assure you as a result of this metal detectors and security will be beefed up at these types of venues across the country. Then the enemy looks for the next weakness and exploits it and we go round and round again.
The only way to truly stop this, if it's even possible, is to address the root cause of the issue and fix it to both sides liking. Something tells me that will not happen.
To go back to the OP question....these terrorists had what any military team tries to achieve: the element of surprise. Being involved in a mass shootout was the last thing on these concert goers minds. The chaos and confusion that ensued must have been intense. In an instant there were thousands of people screaming and then trampling each other as they run for the exits.The human body has an automatic impulse to drop down or escape the situation. The gunmen had the tactical advantage and as a result could inflict a high casualty rate before they could be taken down. They were prepared for that scenario by strapping bombs to themselves.
I don't know what security was like to get into this venue, but I can assure you as a result of this metal detectors and security will be beefed up at these types of venues across the country. Then the enemy looks for the next weakness and exploits it and we go round and round again.
The only way to truly stop this, if it's even possible, is to address the root cause of the issue and fix it to both sides liking. Something tells me that will not happen.
olasek
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After they built the wall the number of terrorist suicide attacks plummeted indeed.
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Tom-D
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IOWs you are one who does not believe in the American way of good and evil.
If you don't like AMERICA and the American way, get the fu-- out.
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Good guys with guns need to identify the target, need to know what's behind the target (e.g., any possible innocents in the way)
iow - don't just pull the gun and blast away.
but, at least there would be the option/possibility of nipping a mass shooting in the bud.
Without anybody carrying, there is nearly zero chance.
rpadula
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This thread is almost as good as the comments on zero hedge. 
Phoenix
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This thread is almost as good as the comments on zero hedge.
And you Sir are far superior. In wit, wisdom, and insightful observation. Thank you for sharing your intellect with us this evening.
Christian religions aren't actually Christian as in following the edicts of Christ, which is why Islam considers them infidels. If Christians actually followed the edicts of Christ, a respected prophet of Islam as well, then those of Islam are ordered to leave those people in peace according to the same page of the Qu'ran that contains the edict to wage jihad that is in use now.
It is our hypocrisy that has us in trouble and nothing else. If we did what we say we believe in, there would be no problem with Islam, but we don't. According to the Bible that the majority of Americans profess to, if you look at what our society does and how it behaves counter to every one of the 10 Commandments as well as prohibitions on usury and the failure to follow the original mandate to be kind and take care of each other, you will notice their claims about us being 'infidels' and 'The Great Satan' are not without justification. We as a society are willfully blind in our ignorance of this truth.
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And the "100 gifted" will know the 4 "targets"? Tell me, what do the bad guys look like?
The "100" will shoot each other, plus a bunch of extras.
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Next one will be even easier, throw a pack of firecrackers in an armed crowd and watch the gunslingers kill each other and random others.
Yes. A circular firing squad of cowboys.
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denverpilot
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There is no defense against a surprise attack of unarmed civilians. That's why it's called terrorism.
It doesn't matter if it's guns, knives, bombs, or sharpened pointy sticks.
If you're the closest to the attackers when they start killing and didn't notice they were doing something weird, you're dead. It's that simple.
Further away, there's a short timeframe where there's usually options.
Acting surprised that it occurs at the most insecure and disarmed places in society is silly.
Blaming good people who would prefer to be in those places armed, as if they're the problem, is even sillier.
Sending a largely poorly trained and ill equipped police force to respond to terrorists, even more so.
(Most police forces don't have the budget to train properly for urban warfare, and that's what terrorism is. The elite/special units do, but they're 30 minutes out from any event like this and that... Is exactly what we vote to pay for. Ask any beat cop how many scenario based training sessions they get per year. Ask them if they think that's enough for them to be ready for one. The answer may surprise you. )
The idea that armed good people that have a sheepdog mentality would screw up so badly that everyone would die, is also ludicrous. Hell, if nothing at all else, they'll be a great distraction for the bad guys while you slip out the back door. At best, they'll stop the threat and save your life.
Reality will probably fall somewhere in between, and lean toward the better outcome more than the worst case, since at least one might understand they also need to mount a quick and vicious retaliation in order to maintain their own surprise advantage.
There's a whole lot of delusions about security in rich societies in general.
People don't realize it's what they eat that will kill them, long before a terrorist darkens their doorstep.
And it'll be someone who wants you personally dead who'll darken them doorstep long before a terrorist crosses their path, too...
...if we are going to remove self-inflicted damage from the discussion.
And it'll be an idiot texting and driving, that kills you, long long long before that.
Now back to the original question. What can you do?
If you must attend large gatherings at locations where everyone supposedly will be disarmed, pay a little more attention to your surroundings. Know where the exits are and know what people are doing around you.
There were reports of people in the theatre who had to bodily throw others up onto the stage because they knew there were exits there and the idiots were frozen and standing in the way.
Situational awareness, self defense trainers call it. Paying some ****ing attention is what my dad called it. Either one works as a description if it gets you to do it.
Henning, when talking about pilots and not social engineering babble, has mentioned before the concept of "freezers" and people who "act".
While he believes it's mostly genetic, and science may yet prove him right, I believe that people can behave differently when shown how.
Ask any beat cop if it's a foot race in their group as to who gets the furthest seat from the main entrance door, their back to a wall, and their strong side / pistol side outward in the booth or chair when they go to lunch.
Now also ask them, when they lose that foot race, if they mind that the guy or gal who has the best marksmanship of their group, ended up in that seat.
It's both an individual function and a group function. If you have people with you who will literally watch your back, that's a good as you doing it. (Ask any politician with an armed security detail.)
Even if you're not willing to give up your "party scene" and want to be a drinker and paying no attention at a concert or similar, invite friends who pay attention.
This isn't rocket science. Friends do this type of thing all the time for drunk friends. Making sure they don't get in too much trouble. Being their eyes and ears when someone is hitting on them in a compromised state. Etc.
If in venues that allow people to not be arbitrarily disarmed, take a "gun nut" along that you know. Or a friend who's a cop. And don't ask them if they're carrying. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. Just let them be. That's their call. You have your own choice and free will in the matter. If you chose not to, that's your business. If they chose to, that's their business.
If they are carrying, they'll probably look out for your sorry ass, when they really don't have any legal obligation to do so in any way.
Scoff at Doc's commentary as gung-ho all you like. He's your best friend when the shooting starts.
Of course he may have decided with our legal and liability scenario in the U.S., that even though he's willing to "drop the bad guy" -- if he can get to safety, you're on your own.
He wouldn't want any of the whiners here, suing him out of house and home, if he happened to miss.
And as others have mentioned, even without firearms involved at all, you want a buddy who's just stupid/brave enough to try to stop bad people. Those who will do it without hesitation or complaint are worth their weight in gold as friends.
Very few people run toward trouble. They usually have to be acclimatized to it and trained to do it. Police, firefighters, EMTs, military, and all variants of retirees from those types of professions usually do. They've been trained to take cover if needed, assess, and move out toward their best option.
Whether that gets them a block away, panting and thankful they knew where the exit was, and they hit it immediately at the first sign of trouble, or if it gets them dead rushing an attacker to save others, or something in between, really isn't much difference in their thought process. They're going to act.
That friend you know who stands straight up and looks around like a prairie dog every time there's trouble? Yeah, he's gonna get his head blown off in a terrorist attack. Poor guy.
If you're near him, either drag his ass down to the floor or let him go up and be a target. Your call. Because he always does it. We all have one of these friends.
Those who are not acclimatized to bad situations are probably going to hit the floor and then may or may not freak out. Wildcard. Some people switch into survival mode and do well. Others attract attention to themselves and die.
The funniest thing in the thread so far is the firecracker comment. It does pay to know what the hell gunfire sounds like versus a firecracker. Many people do. Far more don't. The likelihood that someone carrying a firearm doesn't, is pretty damned low.
Anyone else notice the beat cops weren't holstered last night. That was the one that got me. Not a one in the early footage had their pistol holstered. All were out and held near the chest. If you don't notice such things, start. If you see beat cops doing that, even the ones blocks away from the scene handling crowd control duty at the press line, some serious **** is going down. Real serious. And they haven't caught the bad guys yet.
It's little things like that you have to teach yourself to notice. Well I say little things, but if you're thinking about it, that's not a little thing at all. Seeing every cop in a multi-block radius drawn and not holstered, isn't little at all. But many people would easily not notice that. At all. They're too inward focused to pay that much attention to their surroundings.
That's all I've got. There's whole classes on this stuff and they don't even have to be firearms related. They're not expensive or even hard to find. If your question is serious: How? Then go find out. It's not a secret.
It doesn't matter if it's guns, knives, bombs, or sharpened pointy sticks.
If you're the closest to the attackers when they start killing and didn't notice they were doing something weird, you're dead. It's that simple.
Further away, there's a short timeframe where there's usually options.
Acting surprised that it occurs at the most insecure and disarmed places in society is silly.
Blaming good people who would prefer to be in those places armed, as if they're the problem, is even sillier.
Sending a largely poorly trained and ill equipped police force to respond to terrorists, even more so.
(Most police forces don't have the budget to train properly for urban warfare, and that's what terrorism is. The elite/special units do, but they're 30 minutes out from any event like this and that... Is exactly what we vote to pay for. Ask any beat cop how many scenario based training sessions they get per year. Ask them if they think that's enough for them to be ready for one. The answer may surprise you. )
The idea that armed good people that have a sheepdog mentality would screw up so badly that everyone would die, is also ludicrous. Hell, if nothing at all else, they'll be a great distraction for the bad guys while you slip out the back door. At best, they'll stop the threat and save your life.
Reality will probably fall somewhere in between, and lean toward the better outcome more than the worst case, since at least one might understand they also need to mount a quick and vicious retaliation in order to maintain their own surprise advantage.
There's a whole lot of delusions about security in rich societies in general.
People don't realize it's what they eat that will kill them, long before a terrorist darkens their doorstep.
And it'll be someone who wants you personally dead who'll darken them doorstep long before a terrorist crosses their path, too...
...if we are going to remove self-inflicted damage from the discussion.
And it'll be an idiot texting and driving, that kills you, long long long before that.
Now back to the original question. What can you do?
If you must attend large gatherings at locations where everyone supposedly will be disarmed, pay a little more attention to your surroundings. Know where the exits are and know what people are doing around you.
There were reports of people in the theatre who had to bodily throw others up onto the stage because they knew there were exits there and the idiots were frozen and standing in the way.
Situational awareness, self defense trainers call it. Paying some ****ing attention is what my dad called it. Either one works as a description if it gets you to do it.
Henning, when talking about pilots and not social engineering babble, has mentioned before the concept of "freezers" and people who "act".
While he believes it's mostly genetic, and science may yet prove him right, I believe that people can behave differently when shown how.
Ask any beat cop if it's a foot race in their group as to who gets the furthest seat from the main entrance door, their back to a wall, and their strong side / pistol side outward in the booth or chair when they go to lunch.
Now also ask them, when they lose that foot race, if they mind that the guy or gal who has the best marksmanship of their group, ended up in that seat.
It's both an individual function and a group function. If you have people with you who will literally watch your back, that's a good as you doing it. (Ask any politician with an armed security detail.)
Even if you're not willing to give up your "party scene" and want to be a drinker and paying no attention at a concert or similar, invite friends who pay attention.
This isn't rocket science. Friends do this type of thing all the time for drunk friends. Making sure they don't get in too much trouble. Being their eyes and ears when someone is hitting on them in a compromised state. Etc.
If in venues that allow people to not be arbitrarily disarmed, take a "gun nut" along that you know. Or a friend who's a cop. And don't ask them if they're carrying. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. Just let them be. That's their call. You have your own choice and free will in the matter. If you chose not to, that's your business. If they chose to, that's their business.
If they are carrying, they'll probably look out for your sorry ass, when they really don't have any legal obligation to do so in any way.
Scoff at Doc's commentary as gung-ho all you like. He's your best friend when the shooting starts.
Of course he may have decided with our legal and liability scenario in the U.S., that even though he's willing to "drop the bad guy" -- if he can get to safety, you're on your own.
He wouldn't want any of the whiners here, suing him out of house and home, if he happened to miss.
And as others have mentioned, even without firearms involved at all, you want a buddy who's just stupid/brave enough to try to stop bad people. Those who will do it without hesitation or complaint are worth their weight in gold as friends.
Very few people run toward trouble. They usually have to be acclimatized to it and trained to do it. Police, firefighters, EMTs, military, and all variants of retirees from those types of professions usually do. They've been trained to take cover if needed, assess, and move out toward their best option.
Whether that gets them a block away, panting and thankful they knew where the exit was, and they hit it immediately at the first sign of trouble, or if it gets them dead rushing an attacker to save others, or something in between, really isn't much difference in their thought process. They're going to act.
That friend you know who stands straight up and looks around like a prairie dog every time there's trouble? Yeah, he's gonna get his head blown off in a terrorist attack. Poor guy.
If you're near him, either drag his ass down to the floor or let him go up and be a target. Your call. Because he always does it. We all have one of these friends.
Those who are not acclimatized to bad situations are probably going to hit the floor and then may or may not freak out. Wildcard. Some people switch into survival mode and do well. Others attract attention to themselves and die.
The funniest thing in the thread so far is the firecracker comment. It does pay to know what the hell gunfire sounds like versus a firecracker. Many people do. Far more don't. The likelihood that someone carrying a firearm doesn't, is pretty damned low.
Anyone else notice the beat cops weren't holstered last night. That was the one that got me. Not a one in the early footage had their pistol holstered. All were out and held near the chest. If you don't notice such things, start. If you see beat cops doing that, even the ones blocks away from the scene handling crowd control duty at the press line, some serious **** is going down. Real serious. And they haven't caught the bad guys yet.
It's little things like that you have to teach yourself to notice. Well I say little things, but if you're thinking about it, that's not a little thing at all. Seeing every cop in a multi-block radius drawn and not holstered, isn't little at all. But many people would easily not notice that. At all. They're too inward focused to pay that much attention to their surroundings.
That's all I've got. There's whole classes on this stuff and they don't even have to be firearms related. They're not expensive or even hard to find. If your question is serious: How? Then go find out. It's not a secret.
Fearless Tower
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Whatever you are drinking man, it's time to put it down and go to bed. You are so hopelessly lost.
Phoenix
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After the Dorner and Tsarnev firefights(3 bad guys, six or seven firefights? Counting the newspaper lady) I wouldn't have too much hope the cops could stop much of anything. And I think the people of Newton noticed the unholstered police presence.
Considering the new high score probably time to peel off the Boston Strong bumper sticker, seems a little embarrassing now.
Considering the new high score probably time to peel off the Boston Strong bumper sticker, seems a little embarrassing now.
olasek
Pattern Altitude
Oh yeah, what a brilliant deduction, it is up to Islam (in this case just a handful of guys) to judge Christians and deliver punishment ... I propose to turn it around - lets's go on a shooting spree in Raqqa/Mecca/Cairo, etc. and justify it on the grounds they are not following 'edicts of Islam' otherwise there would be no problem with Christianity.
denverpilot
Tied Down
After the Dorner and Tsarnev firefights(3 bad guys, six or seven firefights? Counting the newspaper lady) I wouldn't have too much hope the cops could stop much of anything. And I think the people of Newton noticed the unholstered police presence.
Never quite understood the bumper sticker thing for mass murder events. Especially people who weren't targeted or part of the rescue.
We knew one of the Columbine kids personally, and her parents, and we never had any desire to have any bumper stickers about it. That'd be creepy.
Were the proceeds from these stickers given to the victims or something?
Well anyway, I've never known any Bostonians that weren't strong... not kidding there. I doubt y'all need a bumper sticker to know that.
Never found them shy about their opinions, either. Liked all of them, quite a bit, actually. I get along best with people who tend toward zero-BS.
Got a note that one of the guys in the old employer's Andover office retired... made me feel old.
txflyer
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Fly it like you STOL it ♦
To answer the thread question, we protect ourselves by taking the fight to the enemy imo.
As simple and crude as that sounds.
As simple and crude as that sounds.