I cannot believe what I just saw...

Well, I wasn't there, so I can't play"coulda, woulda, shoulda" or call the successful individual a "dumbass". Not that I would have done the same as the man, but I think he has bigger ones than a bunch of us beating him to death from the safety of a keyboard. I'm lettin' him be.
 
Were there camera guys around? Sounds like an upcoming episode of Airplane Repo!

Would you describe your airfield as a "highly secure airpark favored by executives?" :rofl:
 
If it's your fuel farm,shut down the pump if you don't allow hot re fuels. Now taking a wiz in public ,that's another story.
 
Our airport and a lot of others say you can't hand-prop a plane without a qualified pilot at the controls. I always just tied the tail down and chocked the wheels. Who wants to find someone to sit in your plane for you every time you want to start it?!

I wouldn't even consider hot-fueling my plane though!
 
If the guy is willing to take that risk on the ground, what's he doing in the air?

We may later read about him trying to beat a train to the crossing. Locomotive wins all ties.
 
I can't imagine stepping out of the plane with it running. As a passenger I have gotten out with a prop spinning, and I have had passengers (or my CFI) step out with the prop spinning, but ALWAYS very careful about which way to go and such. Me as pilot get out with it running? NO WAY AT ALL.

I'd have turned off the fuel I think - but then me may have walked into the FBO and left it running out there. Wow.
 
Wow you guys would go crazy seeing us hot fuel a helicopter solo then. It's in our GOM and approved by the FAA. I'm not saying it is without additional risk, nor am I saying the risk is worth it in his case, I don't know the full details. But it can be accomplished safely.
 
Anyways, I wonder if this is the same guy fueling his car :D:rolleyes::

 
Jay Honeck said:
Just curious: On the face of it, what this guy did sounds crazy -- but upon analysis was there really much risk?

Presumably he set the brake, then chocked the plane when he got out? Presuming an empty, sterile ramp (no kids running around, etc.) other than the chance of him tripping and falling into the whirling Ginsu Knives of Death, is there anything inherently dangerous about fueling an aircraft with the engine running?
Click to expand...

You've got to be freaking kidding me? I won't let people enter and leave the aircraft I am PIC of without shutting down. It's actually ILLEGAL to do so in the Navion for quite good reason. Leaving NOBODY at the controls of a running aircraft? Absolutely irresponsible. Aircraft escape the parking brakes ALL THE TIME. It's near impossible to intercept these once they get loose and god help the aircraft or personnel or buildings that are in the way.

Working on the cowl with the prop spinning indicates the guy doesn't have a lick of sense. It scares the hell out of me when you don't have any choice (like adjusting the mag timing). I guess you've never seen a prop versus human incident. We had a trained mechanic get it by the prop on an MU-2 when I was learning to fly. Not PRETTY.

Overfill that tank a little... well you better hope to hell it all runs backwards over the wing. Let it come over the front and you risk seeing that come on fire.

I've seen an airplane burn and I've seen the wrecks of two other fueling accidents. It's cheap insurance to shut things down, bond the thing, and do things right.

And frankly, anybody who ****ed on my fuel pump or ramp would be invited to take his incontinent posterior out of the airport and not return.
 
I have seen an Ag pilot load and fuel his Thrush with the engine running. Pulled up to his nurse-truck, got out, hooked up the hoses and filled whatever poison he was dispensing that day.
 
Last edited:
If a Fed had been there and witnessed that pilot doing that I would think he would violate him. I think the FBO owner/manager (OP) should just have turned the pump off and that would have been the end of it. Pilot takes off and goes hot refuel somewhere else! See, so easy a Caveman could do it! :D
 
flyingron said:
You've got to be freaking kidding me? I won't let people enter and leave the aircraft I am PIC of without shutting down. It's actually ILLEGAL to do so in the Navion for quite good reason. Leaving NOBODY at the controls of a running aircraft? Absolutely irresponsible. Aircraft escape the parking brakes ALL THE TIME. It's near impossible to intercept these once they get loose and god help the aircraft or personnel or buildings that are in the way.
Click to expand...

Don't mistake the following comment as an endorsement of this guy's actions. But there's one scenario where I frequently, albeit briefly, have an engine running with no one in the plane. When I hand-prop the J-3, I walk back and untie the tail then walk to the door and climb in. It's not long, but there's a moment there where the engine is running with no one in it and it's not tied down. I don't consider this excessively risky. But I do make a point to be careful and quick.
 
Yeti Niner Five said:
Don't mistake the following comment as an endorsement of this guy's actions. But there's one scenario where I frequently, albeit briefly, have an engine running with no one in the plane. When I hand-prop the J-3, I walk back and untie the tail then walk to the door and climb in. It's not long, but there's a moment there where the engine is running with no one in it and it's not tied down. I don't consider this excessively risky. But I do make a point to be careful and quick.
Click to expand...



You can cut that risk even further if you do it with the fuel selector off.

We watched a demo at Osh talking about this and he recommended if you can do it, most planes will run for about thirty seconds or maybe a minute on just what is in the carb bowl. This way if something happens and the plane gets away from you it will die soon.

You just gotta be quicker to hop in and turn it on ... ;)
 
Yeti Niner Five said:
Don't mistake the following comment as an endorsement of this guy's actions. But there's one scenario where I frequently, albeit briefly, have an engine running with no one in the plane. When I hand-prop the J-3, I walk back and untie the tail then walk to the door and climb in. It's not long, but there's a moment there where the engine is running with no one in it and it's not tied down. I don't consider this excessively risky. But I do make a point to be careful and quick.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but you don't put fuel or oil in a J3 with the engine running... :lol:
 
BGF_Yankee said:
PS - By all means, come on up! We're happy to have you and love meeting the people from the forums ;)
Click to expand...
I've stopped for fuel at BGF to/from Florida several times. Next time I'll have to see if you're around.
 
I'm glad Nate deleted his response...that was one of the most disturbing posts I have ever read here.
 
I remember when I was a relatively new private pilot, a young CFI at Beverly, MA (BVY) was flying solo and while in the runup area realized he had forgotten to secure something on the aircraft (a PA28), so he got out while the engine was running.

He could probably explain why that wasn't such a good idea....except for the fact that he's dead now.
 
Direct C51 said:
Wow you guys would go crazy seeing us hot fuel a helicopter solo then. It's in our GOM and approved by the FAA. I'm not saying it is without additional risk, nor am I saying the risk is worth it in his case, I don't know the full details. But it can be accomplished safely.
Click to expand...

I've never seen anyone hand-prop a helicopter with a dead battery. An Arrow on the other hand...
 
Chip Sylverne said:
I've never seen anyone hand-prop a helicopter with a dead battery. An Arrow on the other hand...
Click to expand...

I'm trying to think of a single pilot helo that will roll anywhere if the brakes fail...

Anyway, when I was in the GOM, PHI didn't do solo hot refueling with pax on board. PHI is just the biggest outfit.
 
denverpilot said:
I didn't make one. What are you talking about? (Edit: I'm not kidding.)
Click to expand...

Ooops...sorry Nate...misremembering...

It was not one post, but two that disturbed me...

James331 said:

Do something about it? "Document" it? WTF?

Was he a imminent threat to you?

I've hot fueled and loaded, of course I was in the plane, but that's just me.

So what did you tell your employee to do?

Maybe just worry about your own life.
Click to expand...

(And then apparently deleted it)

Then Jay respond with:

[Just curious: On the face of it, what this guy did sounds crazy -- but upon analysis was there really much risk?

Presumably he set the brake, then chocked the plane when he got out? Presuming an empty, sterile ramp (no kids running around, etc.) other than the chance of him tripping and falling into the whirling Ginsu Knives of Death, is there anything inherently dangerous about fueling an aircraft with the engine running?
Click to expand...

They were both subsequently quoted...the reason I saw their posts...and they're both are on ignore...the reason I didn't find the posts later...

Sorry to accuse you of something you didn't do...you do enough without false accusations! :)
 
Not sure which is worse...what the OP described...or that folks here are OK with it. So much for a safety culture.
 
Piper door is pretty big, even at idle I'm surprised the prop wash let him get out
 
PeeGee said:
Piper door is pretty big, even at idle I'm surprised the prop wash let him get out
Click to expand...

PA-28 doors are easy to open at idle. They will blow closed if you don't hold'em but that's about it.
 
Clark1961 said:
PA-28 doors are easy to open at idle. They will blow closed if you don't hold'em but that's about it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, guess we used to taxi with them open. Maybe he's more coordinated than I am. I'd fall on my ass
 
OK, I gotta come clean.

I hot fueled once at St Johns AZ. I wuz skiing at Taos and like the guy in the story my starter busted. I hand propped to get out of Taos but didn't have enough fuel to get to Tucson, so I stopped at St Johns. The lineman came out, and we chatted a bit, I told him my dilemma and said I wanted to do the fueling if it was ok with him. He said ok, so I got chocks and put them under the wheels(I also have a parking brake on), set the throttle to idle, and fueled the left tank nearest the pump.

In retrospect, I should have shut down and tried a hot restart by hand prop, but I was pretty sure I was going to be there for hours and killing my back to get it running again. The other options were to stay o-night in St Johns and go to Tucson in the morning, but there was a front coming in from the NW, and I really wanted to be where I had tools and could get parts pretty easy.

I did it. I own it. I can take the abuse. Let er rip.
 
Clark1961 said:
I'm trying to think of a single pilot helo that will roll anywhere if the brakes fail...

Anyway, when I was in the GOM, PHI didn't do solo hot refueling with pax on board. PHI is just the biggest outfit.
Click to expand...

Rather see an airplane roll un-piloted then control friction come undone on an unattended helicopter. At least you can guess the direction the airplane is going to go. I hate when it rains helicopter parts.:yikes:
 
If people hot-fueled as a standard procedure, it would probably be safer. The Ag guys who do this put on thousands of hours that way and know where to put their hands and feet.
 
Phoenix said:
Rather see an airplane roll un-piloted then control friction come undone on an unattended helicopter. At least you can guess the direction the airplane is going to go. I hate when it rains helicopter parts.:yikes:
Click to expand...

At idle? it's not going to rain helo parts. It may scatter a tailboom and various bits of rotor but prolly not.
 
flyingron said:
You've got to be freaking kidding me? I won't let people enter and leave the aircraft I am PIC of without shutting down. It's actually ILLEGAL to do so in the Navion for quite good reason. Leaving NOBODY at the controls of a running aircraft?
Click to expand...


I've seen you make that statement before, so I'm curious, what makes it illegal in the Navion any more so than other planes.

And I guess not everyone feels that way because I watched a Navion pilot pull up on the ramp and set the brake, hop out and load his passenger's luggage, help her up into the airplane and take off. Engine running the whole time.
 
BGF_Yankee said:
I just watched an Arrow owner land, leave the aircraft running, vacate the aircraft (still running), hot fuel the aircraft, add oil, and then take a leak behind the self-service fuel terminal.
Click to expand...

He took a leak behind the terminal? What the heck was he thinking?
 
Dave Theisen said:
I've seen you make that statement before, so I'm curious, what makes it illegal in the Navion any more so than other planes.

And I guess not everyone feels that way because I watched a Navion pilot pull up on the ramp and set the brake, hop out and load his passenger's luggage, help her up into the airplane and take off. Engine running the whole time.
Click to expand...

Some Navions have a front wing load step, some have rear. Front loading obviously one needs to get very close to the spinning prop, while putting a foot on a small step and leaning up and down. Recipe for disaster. Rear wing load Navions are no different than a Bo, or Piper.

<edit: Upon reflection, a Navion is a bit more dangerous than a Piper or Bo. On those planes, the door effectively blocks forward access while on the wing. In the Navion it's a canopy, so there is nothing stopping you from falling forward if you trip. So, Navion no access while engine is running. >
 
Last edited:
Not saying it isn't more dangerous, just wondering what makes it "illegal". Is it a placard or a limitation in the POH?
 
Some winter flights for me require jumping the plane. My wife (Tami) helps and we use my pick up with jumper cables. I have an exterior auxiliary battery connection. My AVITAR is a picture of Tami one winter day before we flew

Tami sits right seat holds brakes after startup, I get out coil the cables up, park the truck, climb back in and call for taxi clearance. It's all very controlled and we talk about what each other is going to do.

This joker is a jerk. If he doesn't care about his own safety, why should he consider the safety or property of others. Irresponsible
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top