So... used 1/2 built kit, what happens?

Dav8or

Dav8or

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What happens when you buy somebody's partially built kit plane? When you finish it, are you recorded as the builder and have full privileges even though you did not complete 51%??

If so, the unfinished and seemingly unpopular "half builts" might represent one of GA's greatest values. Low cost, new plane, fast build time, and all the advantages of the E/AB plane. Sort of a fast build on steroids at half the cost.

I am ignorant on the particulars, so what is the truth?
 
Who is going to be the one that determines the 50% part? I swear it was a rivet away from 50% so therefor I built over 50%.
 
It depends on several things. But, most importantly it depends on the kind of kit and how much of it you build or rework yourself.

I bought quick-build RV-8 wings still in the crate from a guy who had a falling-out with his partner. I got transfer of ownership documentation recorded with Vans to show I am the builder of record. I intend to get the repairman certificate for it when I complete it.

After having gotten involved with this project, I wish I'd bought a complete kit from the manufacturer from the get-go an not have mucked around with old kits. I don't think I will have saved any money, time or work in the long run.
 
In practice, yes, whoever tightens the last bolt and turns in the paperwork, is the builder and gets the repairman's certificate. The requirement is for 51% of the tasks (not the hours of work) to be done by amateurs. There is no limit to the number of builders. But at the end only one of them can be named on the repairman's certificate.
 
Dav8or said:
What happens when you buy somebody's partially built kit plane? When you finish it, are you recorded as the builder and have full privileges even though you did not complete 51%??
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51% has nothing to do with who assembles the kit. it has to do with how much of the kit was built by the kit manufacturer.

The FAA determines if the kit was in compliance with the 51% rule. as long as every one assembling the kit are amateur builders every thing is good.
 
JHW said:
In practice, yes, whoever tightens the last bolt and turns in the paperwork, is the builder and gets the repairman's certificate. The requirement is for 51% of the tasks (not the hours of work) to be done by amateurs. There is no limit to the number of builders. But at the end only one of them can be named on the repairman's certificate.
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The repairman's certificate goes to the one mentioned on the request for the certificate, they are not required to touch the aircraft.
 
It was my understanding that if you take over a partially completed kit and complete it, and IF you apply for the repairman certificate, you will have to demonstrate that you have the skill and knowledge equivalent to having built the entire kit yourself in order to get it. Is this not correct?
 
wilkersk said:
It was my understanding that if you take over a partially completed kit and complete it, and IF you apply for the repairman certificate, you will have to demonstrate that you have the skill and knowledge equivalent to having built the entire kit yourself in order to get it. Is this not correct?
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You can demonstrate that ability, it's not required to be done on the aircraft you are applying for.
 
wilkersk said:
It was my understanding that if you take over a partially completed kit and complete it, and IF you apply for the repairman certificate, you will have to demonstrate that you have the skill and knowledge equivalent to having built the entire kit yourself in order to get it. Is this not correct?
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Not in any practical way. There is no mechanism to make such an evaluation. If anyone is giving you "advice" like this, be sure to ask how many airplanes they have built.
 
Dav8or said:
What happens when you buy somebody's partially built kit plane? When you finish it, are you recorded as the builder and have full privileges even though you did not complete 51%??

If so, the unfinished and seemingly unpopular "half builts" might represent one of GA's greatest values. Low cost, new plane, fast build time, and all the advantages of the E/AB plane. Sort of a fast build on steroids at half the cost.

I am ignorant on the particulars, so what is the truth?
Click to expand...

Make sure you get the build logs to prove that an amateur has done the pre-existing work. A picky inspector might challenge you as to whether amateurs have completed 51% of the tasks.

With that satisfied, someone will qualify as the repairman. If you participated in the build, you can be that person.
 
wilkersk said:
It depends on several things. But, most importantly it depends on the kind of kit and how much of it you build or rework yourself.

I bought quick-build RV-8 wings still in the crate from a guy who had a falling-out with his partner. I got transfer of ownership documentation recorded with Vans to show I am the builder of record. I intend to get the repairman certificate for it when I complete it.

After having gotten involved with this project, I wish I'd bought a complete kit from the manufacturer from the get-go an not have mucked around with old kits. I don't think I will have saved any money, time or work in the long run.
Click to expand...

This is a good point. Half built kits are half built for a reason. There may be examples of high quality builders who had to abandon the project for a legitimate reason, but I suspect they are far outweighed by the folks who got in over their head, didn't make it a priority or realized they didn't have the skill to pull it off, etc.

The sweet spot is to buy a used kit after the original owner took inventory, but before they started any real work on the project.
 
Dav8or said:
What happens when you buy somebody's partially built kit plane? When you finish it, are you recorded as the builder and have full privileges even though you did not complete 51%??

If so, the unfinished and seemingly unpopular "half builts" might represent one of GA's greatest values. Low cost, new plane, fast build time, and all the advantages of the E/AB plane. Sort of a fast build on steroids at half the cost.

I am ignorant on the particulars, so what is the truth?
Click to expand...

Yep, you finish it, you get the repair man's certificate. You don't have to do 51% of the work, you have to be involved in 51% of the processes as I understand it.
 
If you want one to fly, best way is to buy a flying, or near ready to fly, plane from some pedantic OCD craftsman who allows for nothing besides perfection in everything they do, then pay an A&P for you annual condition inspection. (Not a bad idea to get someone else's eyeballs on your equipment once a year anyway)

If you want one to build, buy your stuff direct from the factory.
 
Henning said:
Yep, you finish it, you get the repair man's certificate. You don't have to do 51% of the work, you have to be involved in 51% of the processes as I understand it.
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Nothing in the rules that says you must be a part of the build to get the repairman's certificate.

EAA chapters build aircraft as a chapter projects, the member who bought the kit, applies for the Repairman's certificate.
 
I am seriously entertaining the idea of building a Vans RV-10 right now. I've been reading various build blogs and watching videos on them. For me it seems like a plane that fits everything I like, including my desire to tinker with airplanes.

I looked at some people selling partial completed tail kits and wings. For me it's the safe bet to always not try to skirt around work and just do it yourself. I do plan to quickbuild the wings and fuselag but I have faith in Vans more than in Jimmy the amateur plane builder who quit.
 
Dav8or said:
What happens when you buy somebody's partially built kit plane? When you finish it, are you recorded as the builder and have full privileges even though you did not complete 51%??

If so, the unfinished and seemingly unpopular "half builts" might represent one of GA's greatest values. Low cost, new plane, fast build time, and all the advantages of the E/AB plane. Sort of a fast build on steroids at half the cost.

I am ignorant on the particulars, so what is the truth?
Click to expand...

Here's how E-AB works. You contact a DAR and get the paperwork package. Essentially you go to FSDO and apply for a registration, secure an N number, etc. You build the plane and maintain a log and photo album to support that you built the plane. It's an educational project and there's no prohibition against getting some expert or professional help. Just be able to sell that you did the lion's share. When you're finished you call the DAR and he comes by to inspect your finished plane, review the builder logs, etc and he issues an airworthiness certificate if he finds the airplane satisfactory. You'll already have agreed on a plan to fly off the initial 25 or 40 hours and will have some limitations during that time. You will be the manufacturer of record on the registration. Being the builder you can apply for the repairman cert for that plane which allows you to do condition inspections. Without that cert you can work on and modify the airplane just the same but would need an A&P to sign off the annual condition inspection.

Did the original owner register it? I don't think that would prevent you from starting at zero but I can't say for sure. Find an EAA chapter and talk to their best advisor. Or ask a DAR. The one I've talked with is very helpful. Not the enemy by any stretch.
 
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Tom-D said:
Nothing in the rules that says you must be a part of the build to get the repairman's certificate.

EAA chapters build aircraft as a chapter projects, the member who bought the kit, applies for the Repairman's certificate.
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As I said, involved.
 
Brad Z said:
This is a good point. Half built kits are half built for a reason. There may be examples of high quality builders who had to abandon the project for a legitimate reason, but I suspect they are far outweighed by the folks who got in over their head, didn't make it a priority or realized they didn't have the skill to pull it off, etc.

The sweet spot is to buy a used kit after the original owner took inventory, but before they started any real work on the project.
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Lots of guys like the idea of building a plane. Not all of them have the discipline to see it through. Building a plane is a LOT of work. Much of it detailed and tedious. For guys to lose interest before completion is common. That doesn't make it a bad purchase. It is what it is. If you have the skills to complete it you must have the skills to inspect and verify what's already done.

And for the repairman's cert info..... http://fsims.faa.gov/WDocs/8300.10 Airworthiness Insp Handbk/Volume 2/2_025_00.htm
 
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Henning said:
As I said, involved.
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You don't even have to be involved.

I once bought a totally finished kit, transported it home, registered it, got the repairman's, and sold it with out ever having built any portion of it.

AS long as no one has already obtained the certificate, you can apply for it.
 
You're an A&P, yes? There would be no reason for you to want or need a repairman's certificate.

Read the link in post #19. The rules for who is eligible and what it allows them to do are clear.
 
Ship the kit and a set of tools to Oshkosh and hang a "Two Weeks to Taxi" sign above it. :)
 
OkieAviator said:
I looked at some people selling partial completed tail kits and wings. For me it's the safe bet to always not try to skirt around work and just do it yourself. I do plan to quickbuild the wings and fuselag but I have faith in Vans more than in Jimmy the amateur plane builder who quit.
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Yes, but can not the partially assembled kit be inspected just as you would inspect a fully completed kit before purchase? I would think that because it is only partly built, it would be much, much easier to assess the quality of the build than if say you were to just go and buy a flying example.

I would think that just as complete logs are very important in the purchase decision of a certified airplane, that the build logs of a kit would be equally, if not more important. Any partly built kit that had poor, or no logs you pass on.

Why not get the extra quick build option? Seems like a huge savings to me.
 
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Brad Z said:
The sweet spot is to buy a used kit after the original owner took inventory, but before they started any real work on the project.
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I have to agree with Brad 100%. This is the stage I bought my kit at, and saved over half the cost of the kit, and still get full factory support. I see no reason to buy straight from the factory if you have some time to search out a deal. My kit was still in the boxes, but if not, a thorough inventory would be required, and price adjusted for missing components. I would also be wary of taking over a partially completed kit without knowing a lot about the construction nuances of the particular plane, or bringing someone along who does.
 
Tom-D said:
You don't even have to be involved.

I once bought a totally finished kit, transported it home, registered it, got the repairman's, and sold it with out ever having built any portion of it.

AS long as no one has already obtained the certificate, you can apply for it.
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Did you have a builders log from the original owner/builder?
 
Direct C51 said:
I would also be wary of taking over a partially completed kit without knowing a lot about the construction nuances of the particular plane, or bringing someone along who does.
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Just like you would do a pre buy inspection on an airworthy airplane.
 
Just because you put your name on it does not entitle you to a repairmans cert. if the examiner did not check your build documentation and issued you a certificate he did not do his job. People hiring hired builders and applying for the repair mans cert are jeopardizing the system for the rest of us. The idea of the repairman cert is that if you built it you should be able to maintain it and attest to its condition for safe flight. If I hear of someone that has not built any part of their aircraft and applies for a repair mans cert. I will notify the FAA. It not the way the law is set up. I had a talk with a FAA maintain inspector about it he said if you come to him wanting a repairman cert for one of the high performance homebuilts you had better have good documentation or you are not getting the cert from him.
 
The only thing you need the Repairman's cert for is signing off your annual condition inspection anyway, which any A&P can do.
 
Stewartb said:
You're an A&P, yes? There would be no reason for you to want or need a repairman's certificate.

Read the link in post #19. The rules for who is eligible and what it allows them to do are clear.
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Just because you are an A&P does not mean you can't get the repairman's certificate.

I know one who lost their A&P, still was able to do their own compliance inspection.
 
So a guy wants to buy a low cost airplane. Finds a homebuilt, for sale. He goes to look at it and asks "how does it fly?" Owner says "take it up and see for yourself". So the guy takes it up and just after takeoff, it doesn't feel right so he sets it back down. Comes back and says "it just didn't feel right, what have the others that have flown it have to say about it?" Owner says "i dunno, youre the first one that's flown it".....
 
unsafervguy said:
Just because you put your name on it does not entitle you to a repairmans cert. if the examiner did not check your build documentation and issued you a certificate he did not do his job. People hiring hired builders and applying for the repair mans cert are jeopardizing the system for the rest of us. The idea of the repairman cert is that if you built it you should be able to maintain it and attest to its condition for safe flight. If I hear of someone that has not built any part of their aircraft and applies for a repair mans cert. I will notify the FAA. It not the way the law is set up. I had a talk with a FAA maintain inspector about it he said if you come to him wanting a repairman cert for one of the high performance homebuilts you had better have good documentation or you are not getting the cert from him.
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I would be the last one to disagree with you that somebody that had no knowledge of the airframe, engine, or systems should be able to maintain it with a repairman's certificate.

HAVING SAID THAT, I really don't care for your opinion, an FAA "maintain" (Maintenance) inspector's opinion, or anybody else. Quote me chapter and verse of the regulations and don't wave "the law" in my face. They are regulations, not law.

Now, can we get some hard data and not opinions?

THanks,

Jim
 
RotorAndWing said:
But there are some people who cannot obtain an A&P, so the repairman certificate is appropriate.
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True, but there are plenty of A&Ps out there, several in every EAA chapter I've visited that do them for very little $$, and like I said, it's not a bad idea to get another set of eyes on the plane once a year. Getting a condition inspection signed off isn't that difficult if your machine is in safe condition.

If you don't want to spend the time building and get something Ex/AB, it's the only real option.
 
weirdjim said:
I would be the last one to disagree with you that somebody that had no knowledge of the airframe, engine, or systems should be able to maintain it with a repairman's certificate.
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You don't need a repairmans certificate to maintain it.

I maintain my ride and I never even met the guys that built it.

Oh - and by the way - "A&P built" doesn't mean anything in terms of getting an airplane with a quality job on the aircraft systems.
 
The only E/AB type aircraft that I would worry about is the glass layup such as a EZ, Co- or other wise. Rivets, wood, steel tube I can inspect. Glass layups not so much.
 
Tom-D said:
The only E/AB type aircraft that I would worry about is the glass layup such as a EZ, Co- or other wise. Rivets, wood, steel tube I can inspect. Glass layups not so much.
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I've got the ticket and my hiney is behind the signature, but I require TWO noninvolved with the aircraft people who have built the same type aircraft (or extremely similar) to do the inspection with me and if ONE of us says, "that ain't right" then we take another close look until all THREE of us are satisfied.

Jim
 
Henning said:
Yep, you finish it, you get the repair man's certificate. You don't have to do 51% of the work, you have to be involved in 51% of the processes as I understand it.
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That is not even close to the correct answer. Rather than comment on everything how about you restrict it just what you know is true. Not what you "understand".
 
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