Constructive thread about Security

Kritchlow

Kritchlow

Final Approach
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Kritchlow
We may have different opinions on the affect of the TSA, and that may never be resolved.

Instead of debating whether or not the current system works, let's get some constructive thoughts on what we think is the answer to a good system.
*Most* of us feel there should be some level of security, and *most* of us feel the current TSA model and policies are not the answer. So.... To be constructive instead of just bitching about the current situation..
What changes would you make? How would you revamp the system?
 
Presumptuous. I think most would rather just fly on a plane that has functioning men on it. No security required.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Presumptuous. I think most would rather just fly on a plane that has functioning men on it. No security required.
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That is indeed one option, and I'm betting not the only one here that thinks as such. That's why I said *most*, as not to be presumptuous.
 
N801BH said:
PROFILING.......:yes::yes::yes:
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I'm all for it. I would love to be able to institute an Israeli type model.

On a side note, it blows me away that we can't look under the turbin. God knows what they stash in that thing.
 
Kritchlow said:
I'm all for it. I would love to be able to institute an Israeli type model.
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That actually works really well. I got a 2 and was through the whole security at Ben Gurion, belt on and all, in about 0 minutes. Absolutely no hassle.
A friend of mine had done some travel around the "axis of evil" countries, and is a pyrotechnician. He got a 4, and it took a couple of hours. That's the way it should be.
 
"Safety" and "security" are just marketing terms for big govt.

I'm a constitutional kind of guy, if that tells you anything.
 
I don't think profiling is effective anymore. It probably was back in 2001 but they've recruited enough white... or passably white guys now that they'd just send someone you didn't profile and get around the net.

That's the problem in general with any sort of security screen, whatever you do the bad guys will have every opportunity to see it and think up ways around(and there will be ways).

So I propose a more active approach- martial arts training for crew members, maybe a taser or pepper spray kept in a lock box requiring 2 crew members to open. Empower the people on the flight to resist an attacker.
 
cowman said:
I don't think profiling is effective anymore. It probably was back in 2001 but they've recruited enough white... or passably white guys now that they'd just send someone you didn't profile and get around the net.

That's the problem in general with any sort of security screen, whatever you do the bad guys will have every opportunity to see it and think up ways around(and there will be ways).

So I propose a more active approach- martial arts training for crew members, maybe a taser or pepper spray kept in a lock box requiring 2 crew members to open. Empower the people on the flight to resist an attacker.
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I think you are correct about screening for color of skin, but what about the Israeli model where they interview for behavior?

As far as weapons and martial arts.. All well and good, but I'm not sure if that will help against the luggage bomb.
 
Kritchlow said:
I think you are correct about screening for color of skin, but what about the Israeli model where they interview for behavior?

As far as weapons and martial arts.. All well and good, but I'm not sure if that will help against the luggage bomb.
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Problem is that the Israeli Security Force people are very well trained. They are not a bunch of wannabe cops who didn't make the cut.

Running Israeli-style security with the scale of USA is simply impossible.
 
mtuomi said:
Problem is that the Israeli Security Force people are very well trained. They are not a bunch of wannabe cops who didn't make the cut.

Running Israeli-style security with the scale of USA is simply impossible.
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I completely agree with both of your points.
 
mtuomi said:
Problem is that the Israeli Security Force people are very well trained. They are not a bunch of wannabe cops who didn't make the cut.

Running Israeli-style security with the scale of USA is simply impossible.
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Pretty easy really......

All Muslims are NOT terrorists.. BUT..... ALL terrorists are Muslim...

Look for the traits, dress, Turbins, Beards, chanting Allah Akbar... Etc etc...
 
N801BH said:
Pretty easy really......

All Muslims are NOT terrorists.. BUT..... ALL terrorists are Muslim...

Look for the traits, dress, Turbins, Beards, chanting Allah Akbar... Etc etc...
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I hate to say it, but I'm about to **** my pants!!!!
 
wsuffa said:
Not true. OKC was not caused by anyone of the Muslim faith.
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Hmmmm...

One case out of dozens..... Let's talk Boston Bombers, or 9-11, or the guy who decapitated the head of the co worker in middle America, or the Fort Hood gunman, or the shoe bomber, or the underwear bomber.. etc etc etc...
 
I saw a report a few years back that one airport was allowed to use private security still as opposed to TSA people, due to a small loophole in the TSA statute. I believe it is in San Francesco. The article describes that the company provides intense training, but also fosters competition between the different agents when it comes to better identifying weapons, illegal items, etc. Apparently, they even run "competitions" where employees face off against each other to find items in mock situations. The winning people then receive bonuses based on these competitions as well as overall performance. When tested, these private "TSA" agents way out performed the federalized ones, and cost the tax payers less money. Not sure if this is still going on, the report was a few years ago.
 
drotto said:
I saw a report a few years back that one airport was allowed to use private security still as opposed to TSA people, due to a small loophole in the TSA statute. I believe it is San Francesco. The article describe that the company provides intense training, but also fosters competition between the different agents when it comes to better identifying weapons, illegal items, etc. Apparently, they even run "competitions" where employees face off against each other to find items in mock situations. The winning people then receive bonuses based on these competitions as well as overall performance. When tested, these private "TSA" agents way out performed the federalized ones, an cost the tax payers less money. Not sure if this is still going on, the report was a few years ago.
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Good constructive post!!! Exactly what this thread is meant for!
 
Screeners getting bonuses for stealing nail clippers. Yes! Err no. Not sure the measure reward system reflects anti terror effectiveness.
 
N801BH said:
Pretty easy really......

All Muslims are NOT terrorists.. BUT..... ALL terrorists are Muslim...

Look for the traits, dress, Turbins, Beards, chanting Allah Akbar... Etc etc...
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Only problem with that is it isn't 100% true. 80% doesn't make it a universal truth.

Plus Arabs make up a relatively very small percentage of the Muslim population of the world. The vast majority of Muslims today are Asian. So do we profile all Asians?
 
Fearless Tower said:
Only problem with that is it isn't 100% true. 80% doesn't make it a universal truth.

Plus Arabs make up a relatively very small percentage of the Muslim population of the world. The vast majority of Muslims today are Asian. So do we profile all Asians?
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If black came in 80% of the time at the roulette wheel, guess which color I'd be betting on..??
 
Limit carry on bags to the size of the sample frame. Then use xray dogs and anything else possible on the checked bags. Do the Israel inter iew thing on the passengers.
 
N801BH said:
Pretty easy really......

All Muslims are NOT terrorists.. BUT..... ALL terrorists are Muslim...

Look for the traits, dress, Turbins, Beards, chanting Allah Akbar... Etc etc...
Click to expand...

What do we do with all the Sikh and Hindu? Tell them all that they look too terroristy to be flying today?

We could hope not to **** off the Chechens or Irish. Disgruntled white suburban teens? They're usually not a problem outside of school.

But maybe your not leaning so much toward using skin color as a tell. Maybe Christian terrorists don't exist in your mind. The NLFT and LRA might agree with you, but then there would be nothing to discourage Westboro Babtist from taking the next step.---

Behavioral profiling, as others have suggested seems to me to be a good strategy. Combined with explosive sniffing tech and a workforce just as dedicated to providing transportation safety as to respecting the rights and privacy of the travelers would be a good start.

We're unlikely to see anything better in our lifetime though, not without a MAJOR reform.
 
Kritchlow said:
I'm all for it. I would love to be able to institute an Israeli type model.

On a side note, it blows me away that we can't look under the turbin. God knows what they stash in that thing.
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Unfortunately the Israeli model can't work in the US due to the number of airports and volume of passenger traffic. If your're interested in details I refer you to Jeff Price (faculty at Metro State Univ at Denver). He's studied a variety of security models around the world and can provide more insight into the difficulty.

What's really scary is lack of security in global shipping by air.
 
murphey said:
Unfortunately the Israeli model can't work in the US due to the number of airports and volume of passenger traffic. If your're interested in details I refer you to Jeff Price (faculty at Metro State Univ at Denver). He's studied a variety of security models around the world and can provide more insight into the difficulty.

What's really scary is lack of security in global shipping by air.
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Agreed....

I am amazed that weakness has not been exploited...
 
Kritchlow said:
If black came in 80% of the time at the roulette wheel, guess which color I'd be betting on..??
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That's fine. I would too. But you're a fool to flat out ignore the other 20%.....which in reality make up 95% of the world population.

Profiling is just one of many useful tools. It is by no means a solution.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That's fine. I would too. But you're a fool to flat out ignore the other 20%.....which in reality make up 95% of the world population.

Profiling is just one of many useful tools. It is by no means a solution.
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It's not the only tool, but many people want to ignore the tool that can help eliminate 80% just because it might offend someone.
 
Profiling,if the people doing it are well trained.
 
Still wondering why all the whiners are still on the complaint thread, and not here saying what could be done better??
 
Open carry, issue every passenger a pistol at check in.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Open carry, issue every passenger a pistol at check in.
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Good one IMO... If it was a train, or McDonald's. Airplane not so much because crossfire can get the critical people, plus break the structural integrity.
 
But don't get me wrong.... In general I love the idea. Think kenishaw Co
 
One could always just strip and sedate every passenger and allow no baggage. You always have to make trade offs as far as cost, efficiency, and what people are willing to put up with.

I don't think we had a bad system pre-9/11. Make some edits to the prohibited items list, keep checking bags, and get the crews on the flights as prepared an equipped for trouble as you reasonably can. It's a screening, screens catch most of the big bugs but some get through right? That's where we get term.

From the information I've seen, alert crews work, body scanners and gropings don't. Let's have more of what works and less of what doesn't.
 
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