Flying Cirrus Over Open Water

polaris

polaris

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polaris
Would you fly a Cirrus over a 70 nm stretch of open water (not within gliding distance) in the summer time? If you had a life raft and life jacket for everyone on board? Why or why not? I imagine the calculus is different from a regular single engine because you do not risk hitting the water at 50 kts and potentially cartwheeling, due to the parachute.
 
Only if I could keep one hand on the chute! I don't like water. If I crash, I'd rather die instantly than crash only to drown.
 
I generally try to avoid flights over open water in singles not within gliding distance. Whenever I cross water I'm constantly looking for a place to put the airplane down if the engine quits. If I'm IFR and they route me over water (usually if I'm flying to Martha's Vineyard, Nantucket, etc) I'll ask for a reroute and they are always willing to accommodate me.
 
I've done it over Lake Michigan in June. Clear weather, climbed high as I could, had flight following, had a life vest in the front seat and a bag with the essentials in it with a vest tied to it.

It is a risk, but you manage to the risks.

As a bonus, there was a Coast Guard helo flying along the opposite coast that was on the same frequency I was on. I kept tabs on them and planned to glide toward them if I had an issue.
 
Does your analysis change based on the fact that the Cirrus has a parachute?
 
Well, an SR22 can cover that distance in about 25 minutes. At 10K feet you can glide 15-16nm (no wind calc). So subtracting 15nm from each end that leaves a no-landing window of 40nm which you'd cover in about 15 minutes.

So I guess you gotta ask yourself how likely you are to have an engine failure in that 15 minute window and whether that's enough of a deterrent not to do it, considering you have a parachute.
 
What is the weather going to be? Will you be able to maintain radio communication with ATC? Are there many ships that cross in that area? Will you have kids or adults with you? Can they swim? Will you have a life raft and life vests? How cold is the water? What time of day? Will you have a handheld locator?

Those are some of the questions I would ask myself first. I own an SR22 and I would do it under the right circumstances. In fact if you are on the copa site there is a guy that just flew from FL to Grand Cayman. I would like to do that, but not with my young kids.

... Just want to add that I would personally rather be in my Cirrus. I used to own a 182 and I could only imagine where the cabin would be after ditching. I think the odds are better in a Cirrus.
 
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...people do this every day from Florida to the Bahamas. I'm planning a similar trip myself in my Lance. I don't understand the question.
 
polaris said:
Would you fly a Cirrus over a 70 nm stretch of open water (not within gliding distance) in the summer time? If you had a life raft and life jacket for everyone on board? Why or why not? I imagine the calculus is different from a regular single engine because you do not risk hitting the water at 50 kts and potentially cartwheeling, due to the parachute.
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I think the overall ditching statistics for most single engine planes are pretty good. So assuming the water is warm and there is enough boat or other traffic that you'd be assured of a relatively quick rescue (along with your already stated assumptions of raft & vests), I'd probably do it in any single engine, if the plane was maintained well.

In other words, I'd say yes, but not because of it being a Cirrus. (And I say that as a Cirrus owner.)
 
Done it over Lake Michigan and I would again. I do know, however, that engine failure=death. Sorry, water's cold. About 30 minutes to hypothermia. I have no illusions that a boat or helicopter is going to make it to me before I either drown or freeze. Last time over I didn't see any boats either.

Flying over warm water is different, since there is a lot more time before you become hypothermic.
 
When it's cold, I'm more worried about that vs getting out of the plane in the water. Hypothermia can kill you really quick.

If it's warm and you have the chute, I would do it. I know it's en vogue to pretend the chute is of no additional survival value, but in the case of a water landing in warm water, of course it is.
 
It's obviously a risk and a number of people here have framed it for you. So the answer is "it depends".

My personal experience started about 20 years ago when I transitioned from glider cross countries to airplane cross countries. Landing somewhere short of my destination was an inevitability in my mind and I not only avoided open water but large forested areas as well.

That slowly changed as a couple of things happened. First I went from a certified plane to a homebuilt - AP mechanics to me. The engine compartment is no longer a stranger and I know every single action taken involving my IO-540. I fly higher (6-13k eastern US) and frankly no longer worry that much about what's below though I stay aware.

I am comfortable in the water, have a raft for the Bahamas, always have vests aboard and don't have any dependents. I haven't flown over Lake Michigan for Oshkosh but fly over gulf and Bahamian waters annually. Cold water is much more dangerous than warm IF something were to happen.

The chute is a good thing and would make me feel just a bit better about a ditch.. but not much better.

Thinking hard about what could happen it comes down to a fuel system failure. Just about anything and everything else has redundancies or slower failure modes (I'm sure others will fill in the blanks for me here).

The risk/reward thing goes like this - operating my own plane into the Keys and the Bahamas is magical for my wife and I. We are accepting the risk. YMMV.
 
steingar said:
Done it over Lake Michigan and I would again. I do know, however, that engine failure=death. Sorry, water's cold. About 30 minutes to hypothermia. I have no illusions that a boat or helicopter is going to make it to me before I either drown or freeze. Last time over I didn't see any boats either.

Flying over warm water is different, since there is a lot more time before you become hypothermic.
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you might want to recheck your numbers. Summer time temps Lake Michigan are more on the order of 60-70 degrees which gives you 2-4 hours survival.


http://coastwatch.glerl.noaa.gov/statistic/avg-sst.php?lk=m&yr=0

http://www.pfdma.org/choosing/hypothermia.aspx
 
70 miles is about like Lake Michigan. The response time for an aircraft ditching is actually quicker than a lot of people think. Over the years the response time has been drastically reduced. Some tips are to make sure you are in radio contact with someone. Makes it easier and faster to get a position report out there if you do have to ditch. Keep you lat/long or bearing and distance to a navaid pulled up on your GPS so you can give an accurate position report. Emergency position reports I would give in a timestamp fashion.

Example: "Standby for position report in 3, 2, 1, hack. Lat/Long, groundspeed(or true if unable), course you are tracking(or heading if unable), altitude and rate of descent.

One thing I do is plot an equal time point. Where once we reach that point, we are continuing on. If we have an emergency before that point, we are turning around. Those can be calculated with the following formula.

(TD)(GSrev) / (2)(TAS)(GSfwd) = Equal Time Point in hours

TD is your total distance between airports(or landmasses if that is what you want to use
GSrev is ground speed if you were to turn back 180 degrees
GSfwd is your current groundspeed going towards the destination and your equal time point
TAS is obviously your true air speed.

To change it from hours to a geographical distance just multiply your GSfwd by your ETP in hours.

To calculate one during flight planning you can use forecasted winds aloft. In the airplane(since you said you would be flying a Cirrus) you should be able to get the winds aloft.

Example: Washington Island(2P2) to South Fox Island(3MI2) is 46nm and assume 130 TAS and a 30 knot headwind.
(46)(160) / (2)(130)(100) = .283 hrs
100 x .28 = 28.3 miles from Washington Island
 
polaris said:
Would you fly a Cirrus over a 70 nm stretch of open water (not within gliding distance) in the summer time? If you had a life raft and life jacket for everyone on board? Why or why not? I imagine the calculus is different from a regular single engine because you do not risk hitting the water at 50 kts and potentially cartwheeling, due to the parachute.
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Yes, with proper survival and redundant 406 signaling devices, I have no issues. The decision to pull the chute or not would depend on sea state, and the delineator I would likely use is 15-18 kts surface wind on waters more than 2 miles leeward of shore. That's equivalent to 2-3' seas. Another gauge to use is whitecaps. If white caps are large and ubiquitous, I feel coming down on a chute will be best. If the waters are reasonably placid, I feel the energy can be better managed in a full stall, nose high, landing. It's all about having the smoothest, lowest G deceleration. I may even use 20° flaps to get the maximum stall speed reduction with the highest nose up attitude short of stall, because I want to drag the tail under water first if I can.

The issue with coming down on the chute into the water is that the gear is an integral part of the design that makes CAPS work, and the water doesn't allow it to crush and absorb energy and the plane 'belly flops' at 600fpm. That has caused a man spine damage, however ultimately, he still survived an incapacitation situation he likely would not have without CAPS; he just would have experienced less injury had he been over a field let's say.
 
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Get flight following,get high,and go for it keeping aware of closet point of land ,as you go. Have gone over Lake Michigan several times. The plane doesn't know its over water.
 
Henning said:
Yes, with proper survival and redundant 406 signaling devices, I have no issues. The decision to pull the chute or not would depend on sea state, and the delineator I would likely use is 15-18 kts surface wind on waters more than 2 miles leeward of shore. That's equivalent to 2-3' seas. Another gauge to use is whitecaps. If white caps are large and ubiquitous, I feel coming down on a chute will be best. If the waters are reasonably placid, I feel the energy can be better managed in a full stall, nose high, landing. It's all about having the smoothest, lowest G deceleration. I may even use 20° flaps to get the maximum stall speed reduction with the highest nose up attitude short of stall, because I want to drag the tail under water first if I can.

The issue with coming down on the chute into the water is that the gear is an integral part of the design that makes CAPS work, and the water doesn't allow it to crush and absorb energy and the plane 'belly flops' at 600fpm. That has caused a man spine damage, however ultimately, he still survived an incapacitation situation he likely would not have without CAPS; he just would have experienced less injury had he been over a field let's say.
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Yeah but weigh that with the risk of a cartwheel and likely inverted, underwater egress, and I would think that I'd take my chances with the harder belly landing.
 
Been over lakes Erie and Michigan many times in an R182. Life vests only. If we were worried about the fan stopping, we wouldn't go there. Chances of that happening are slim.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Yeah but weigh that with the risk of a cartwheel and likely inverted, underwater egress, and I would think that I'd take my chances with the harder belly landing.
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The chances of cartwheeling are far, far, far, overstated, especially in tri gear, low wing plane. If you put the mains in first, it is virtually impossible to trip the plane in non breaking seas.
 
I go to the Bahamas every year and have been as far down the Caribbean chain as Antigua (something like 1100 NM from the U.S. Coast, IIRC) so yes, with vests, plb, raft, etc I'm happy flying a cirrus over open water.
 
yes, I'd do it but might put my family in a ferry, but then again if the water were warm, i'd probably take them with me… life is to be lived. My wife was asking me recently how we would get from Puglia to the Balkans & the overland route sure is longer than striking out over the Adriatic. I prefer to avoid water but it's not so bad when you're over it and the sun is shining & the engine purring.
 
jtheune said:
you might want to recheck your numbers. Summer time temps Lake Michigan are more on the order of 60-70 degrees which gives you 2-4 hours survival.
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Sure, just offshore of Chicago. But in the northern part of the lake where I fly they're about 10-20 degrees colder. Also, water gets cold as it gets deeper and less sunlight penetrates, meaning that where your legs are could be ten degrees colder than where your head is. Like I said, engine failure=death over the lake. I'll do it anyway if everything lines up, but I function under no illusions.
 
steingar said:
Sure, just offshore of Chicago. But in the northern part of the lake where I fly they're about 10-20 degrees colder. Also, water gets cold as it gets deeper and less sunlight penetrates, meaning that where your legs are could be ten degrees colder than where your head is. Like I said, engine failure=death over the lake. I'll do it anyway if everything lines up, but I function under no illusions.
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Yeah, and it also depends on whether there has been a storm lately that has stirred up the water. I have been in lake Michigan when it felt like bath water. Other times in the summer, stepping one foot into water it's been so cold it sucks the air right out of your lungs. There is a real chance that ditching in Lake Michigan, even in the warmest part of the summer will result in quick demise.
 
WhiskeyPapa said:
yes, I'd do it but might put my family in a ferry, but then again if the water were warm, i'd probably take them with me… life is to be lived. My wife was asking me recently how we would get from Puglia to the Balkans & the overland route sure is longer than striking out over the Adriatic. I prefer to avoid water but it's not so bad when you're over it and the sun is shining & the engine purring.
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The record of ferries is not always good.
 
There's a video of a guy ditching an SR-22 in the pacific (IIRC) just shy of Hawaii. It was planned because he knew his fuel was insufficient and he called the [ATC who called the] Coast Guard ahead of time and they [were on station at the time of the ditching] caught it on video [and then rescued the pilot].

The splash-down was a non-event. If I had to ditch there is no question I'd pull the chute no matter the sea state because a Cirrus has fixed gear (but I'd still pop the 'chute on an RG). Go trying to be slick and ditch old school style and you'll end up flipping and eating a face full of avionics. With the 'chute you're at least guaranteed of a low forward speed and very likely egress from a plane that is belly down. Better chances.

To the OP, yes, I'd do it with life vests and at least a SPOT if not a proper EPIRB.



.
 
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Been over Lake Michigan in Spring, Summer, Winter, Fall with no life jackets. If it's my time, it's my time.

Heck one time I even crossed Lake Michigan and was never above 1500' - MSL.
 
EdFred said:
Been over Lake Michigan in Spring, Summer, Winter, Fall with no life jackets. If it's my time, it's my time.

Heck one time I even crossed Lake Michigan and was never above 1500' - MSL.
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Bold. And if the fan stops midway over on a cold overflight do you ditch it and suffer hypothermic drowning or do you nosedive it in to end things quickly?

Do you do this with passengers?
 
The plane doesn't know your over water. How many miles do you fly in a year and 70 miles over open water causes concern. Nah go for it. I too plan to make a Bahamas trip in an SEL plane, people do it all the time.
 
simtech said:
The plane doesn't know your over water. How many miles do you fly in a year and 70 miles over open water causes concern. Nah go for it. I too plan to make a Bahamas trip in an SEL plane, people do it all the time.
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Do you watch for a place to land as you fly along?
 
I watched the USCG video of the Cirrus ditching with chute deployed in the Pacific off Hawaii, and obviously everything came out as well as could be hoped in that event.

In that one, the canopy came down into the water well away from the aircraft. But the thought occurred to me, could the canopy come down and drape itself over the aircraft in the water so as to make evacuation of the pilot and passengers difficult or impossible?
 
simtech said:
I do, but sometimes its miles and miles over tree tops. Nothing I can do but go into trees.
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Just pick a dense patch and go in nose high just above stall, and you will survive the impact same as with water. The thing is, with open water, your post crash survival, especially in cold water, is considerably more difficult, and less likely, without proper survival equipment. Does it happen? Yes, the odds are more favorable to win the Powerball though.
 
Pilawt said:
In that one, the canopy came down into the water well away from the aircraft. But the thought occurred to me, could the canopy come down and drape itself over the aircraft in the water so as to make evacuation of the pilot and passengers difficult or impossible?
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Calm wind? the sea will be flat or a visible swell so ditching rather than pulling the chute will be an option. Does it happen? yup - I've seen some incredible sights offshore including mirror seas in the North Sea.

If there is any wind at all the chute won't land on the aircraft. If there is any current at all then the aircraft will tend to move once it hits the water. Current can be tough to figger but it can be significant.
 
Conditionally, yes. My conditions are;

1. No outstanding fuel system or powerplant issues (this is pretty much a given if I'm flying it at all, or at least out of the pattern).

2. My cumulative time outside of glide distance is much less than my total time. It's an odds game, and you increase your odds of an event with exposure.

3. No passengers unless I'm confident they understand the risks and the consequences of ditching.

Usually I will do as several others said, fly as high as possible and choose the narrowest crossing, or crossings with lots of time within glide distance of islands. Generally I don a PFD before taking off. I'll still try to negotiate routing that takes me long distances over open water (e.g. straight down the middle of Lake Erie).
 
RudyP said:
Bold. And if the fan stops midway over on a cold overflight do you ditch it and suffer hypothermic drowning or do you nosedive it in to end things quickly?

Do you do this with passengers?
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Depends how high I am. If I have passengers, I let them make the call.
 
Actually it's not an 'odds thing' at all when it comes to a 'go/no go' or how to prepare decision. The condition either exists or it doesn't. Regardless of the time one is exposed to the risk has no real bearing on if you should prepare for it.
 
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