Cutting down on crosswind component

FastEddieB

FastEddieB

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Fast Eddie B
Just this morning I finished up the Annual Condition Inspection on my Sky Arrow.

The manufacturer provides a checklist for flight testing, and with everything buttoned up and checklist in hand and GoPro on cap I went flying, in spite of some gusty winds and an Airmet for turbulence to 18,000'.

Everything went perfectly - no squawks at all. Yay!

Anyway, circled down over the airport, and on final it was obvious it was pretty gusty and the left crosswind to RWY2 could make things bumpy with wind spilling over the trees just west of the runway.

I have mentioned before if the wind is really howling, one can reduce the amount of the crosswind by landing at an angle to the runway. This video is, I think, a good example of that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWO8mPlmb-k

BTW, it is not my habit to drag it in with that much power. I just misjudged the strength of the wind. So it goes.
 
Looks like you reduced the x-wind angle by maybe 1 or 2 degrees. Not sure that's worth the very real risk of touching down with a wheel off the runway.
 
Good job ,not sure I would try that type approach to touchdown.
 
You can reduce it slightly this way, but I wonder how much difference it really makes...

If your runway is 150 feet wide, and you use 1500 feet of it to land, then if you angle it perfectly to use the very edge at both sides, you change your angle to the wind by 5.7 degrees.

If you can land in 800 feet, you can improve things by 10.6 degrees, so if the wind direction is in the middle somewhere that might be enough to make a useful difference.

Of course, if you can land in 150 feet, you don't need to worry about the crosswind at all. :)
 
deyoung said:
You can reduce it slightly this way, but I wonder how much difference it really makes...

If your runway is 150 feet wide, and you use 1500 feet of it to land, then if you angle it perfectly to use the very edge at both sides, you change your angle to the wind by 5.7 degrees.

If you can land in 800 feet, you can improve things by 10.6 degrees, so if the wind direction is in the middle somewhere that might be enough to make a useful difference.

Of course, if you can land in 150 feet, you don't need to worry about the crosswind at all. :)
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And 10 degrees would reduce the crosswind by about 1.5% if my trig serves me correctly.
 
deyoung said:
You can reduce it slightly this way, but I wonder how much difference it really makes...

If your runway is 150 feet wide, and you use 1500 feet of it to land...

Of course, if you can land in 150 feet, you don't need to worry about the crosswind at all. :)
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Well, the Sky Arrow gets down nicely in 400'-500'.

Anyway, it really seems to make crosswinds more manageable, and could in a borderline case make an impossible landing possible, or a difficult landing easy.

Works for me!
 
N5922S said:
Looks like you reduced the x-wind angle by maybe 1 or 2 degrees. Not sure that's worth the very real risk of touching down with a wheel off the runway.
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Sure felt like more.

And for me, there's really not a "very real risk" of touching down off the runway. Not to say it could not happen, but so far just once in a flying career - and that was coming up just a few feet short on gravel rather than pavement.

Here's an example of how I landed at Moriarty, NM with a howling right crosswind:

8434497277_61534ce6fc.jpg


A lot more than 1 or 2 degrees.

Not really trying to convince anyone of anything. Certainly not an option for many planes and many runways. For a Light Sport that can land at 39k in a few herded feet, I just consider it one tool in my toolkit to make some crosswind landings easier.

To each his own!
 
You used more than 800 ft.
And on a typical 60-75ft wide runway the gain is not really that much.
It may seem to make a difference because you are working an angle into the wind, not trying to maintain centerline.

The novice that tries that may get a surprise when he realizes he is running out of runway to the side and uses rudder to turn to parralle the edge. He'll either miss judge and run off the edge and clip a light, or over correct and get some surve CG going and if you are in a tailwheel, hello ground loop.

I've also heard the argument to land on the upwind side and let the wind push you across the runway. But what happens when you try to correct from being pushed into the grass. More over correcting with rudder and another light clipped.

Just better to use centerline.
 
FastEddieB said:
Well, the Sky Arrow gets down nicely in 400'-500'.

Anyway, it really seems to make crosswinds more manageable, and could in a borderline case make an impossible landing possible, or a difficult landing easy.

Works for me!
Click to expand...

Pretty cool video. 400ft on a 150ft wide runway could cut 20 degrees into a crosswind. That would reduce a direct crosswind by over 6%. You also get the added benefit of reduced ground speed that would help even more.

I'm not a good enough stick and rudder pilot to try this but it certainly looks pretty cool and makes a nice video!
 
Great video. Looked a bit scary.
 
OkieAviator said:
Great video. Looked a bit scary.
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Really did not feel scary at all. If I misjudge and have to turn to point down the runway at the left runway edge (in this case), I'm just back to being aligned with the runway, with all that entails, as I would have been anyway tracking the centerline.

For those who said nice things, thanks! I find on rare occasions it seems to help - YMMV!
 
Not how I would have done it. But worked out fine. Many ways to skin a cat.

In gusty conditions I like to get into ground effect before landing in small planes too, seemed to calm thing down a bit.
 
James331 said:
Not how I would have done it. But worked out fine. Many ways to skin a cat.

In gusty conditions I like to get into ground effect before landing in small planes too, seemed to calm thing down a bit.
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I always get into ground effect before landing... Is there any other way to do it?:confused:
 
I wondered if anyone else did that.
Helps me some.
Hurts nothing.
 
From the picture it looks like you could take the taxiway and give yourself more angle.
 
You could overfly an airplane holding short using that technique. If I was holding short at the end and saw someone coming directly at me, I may not be super happy.
 
FastEddieB said:
Just this morning I finished up the Annual Condition Inspection on my Sky Arrow.

The manufacturer provides a checklist for flight testing, and with everything buttoned up and checklist in hand and GoPro on cap I went flying, in spite of some gusty winds and an Airmet for turbulence to 18,000'.

Everything went perfectly - no squawks at all. Yay!

Anyway, circled down over the airport, and on final it was obvious it was pretty gusty and the left crosswind to RWY2 could make things bumpy with wind spilling over the trees just west of the runway.

I have mentioned before if the wind is really howling, one can reduce the amount of the crosswind by landing at an angle to the runway. This video is, I think, a good example of that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWO8mPlmb-k

BTW, it is not my habit to drag it in with that much power. I just misjudged the strength of the wind. So it goes.
Click to expand...

Nice vid, you notice you didn't really do anything for yourself since you straightened out down the runway for a bit before crossing and touching down.
 
Nothing wrong with landing diagonal on a runway that has space. Do what it takes to be comfortable and safe.
 
Subsea said:
From the picture it looks like you could take the taxiway and give yourself more angle.
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That was my thinking as well, the taxiway would've given you approximately twice the distance for the same wind alignment plus kept you on the pavement for a 30* left turn if that wasn't enough.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
That was my thinking as well, the taxiway would've given you approximately twice the distance for the same wind alignment plus kept you on the pavement for a 30* left turn if that wasn't enough.
Click to expand...

You both make a good point.

There is nothing specific in the regulations that would keep one from landing on a taxiway or ramp or even grass area at an non-towered airport.

But as food for thought...

Let's say the unexpected happens and an accident happened.

Which would be easier to defend from a charge of "Careless of Reckless"...

"I was landing on RWY27 and lost control."

...or...

"I chose to land on a taxiway and lost control."

Just wonder if anyone has ever heard of a charge stemming from the latter?

Not implying that this sort of decision process could or should intrude on decision making. Again, just wondering.
 
I don't like it for the following reason:

The point of crosswind landing (apart for counteracting the wind blowing you off course) is to keep the wings slightly lowered into the wind. This is especially important near the ground. Letting the wing raise is asking for trouble as a gust can tip you over real quick.

This technique of landing partially into the wind at an angle means you need to turn away from the wind to align with the runway at the last moment on the ground when you are most vulnerable. That will naturally tip your wings a bit away from the wind right at the moment when you want to avoid such a thing. Proper crosswind landing technique keeps the wings lowered into the wind and aircraft aligned with the runway up to the moment of touchdown. If that's not possible then the crosswind is too strong for the aircraft.
 
Good point.

Again, may not be appropriate for all planes.

But here's a screenshot at touch down in my Light Sport:

17039874481_dfbecdc7b4_z.jpg


Looks like about 44k IAS. A little fast for me, but I do tend to let it land sooner if gusty. Same reason I chose 20° flaps.

If you look at the windsock in the video as I taxi in, I'd say my groundspeed at touch down was maybe 34k.

And that's one key. If you can land at 39k into an effective 20k headwind component, your groundspeed at touch down can be in the vicinity of 19k. That may help ameliorate the fears of all the horrible things some are envisioning - you're barely above walking pace! "Straightening out" at the runway edge should be nothing more than a basic taxi maneuver, as I think is shown in my video.
 
I recently added that yaw string and I think it's informative to watch it in the video. In spite of the windsock showing a substantial crosswind with the angled landing there appeared to be virtually none on touchdown.

But watch what it does when taxiing straight down the runway!
 
If you have good brakes to steer with when the tail is up, a wheel landing lets you touch down at a higher speed which reduces the crosswind component and lets you touch down with solid controls without mushing around near stall. YMMV
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
If you have good brakes to steer with when the tail is up, a wheel landing lets you touch down at a higher speed which reduces the crosswind component and lets you touch down with solid controls without mushing around near stall. YMMV
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Yes, the extra speed from "flying it on" also decreases crosswind component, and may be appropriate in some cases. Its also why small, slow landing airplanes are affected much more than faster ones.

Downside is a lot more energy carried into the landing, so if something does go wrong, the results can be more dramatic.

Anyway, it helps to have a whole "kit" of trick and techniques from which to draw!
 
There is another down side. You can land fast but you have to slow down through a vulnerable speed that you avoided by landing fast.

When you slow down to that transition speed you become more at the mercy of the winds it is just later in the landing sequence after some fast taxiing.
 
FastEddieB said:
Yes, the extra speed from "flying it on" also decreases crosswind component, and may be appropriate in some cases. Its also why small, slow landing airplanes are affected much more than faster ones.

Downside is a lot more energy carried into the landing, so if something does go wrong, the results can be more dramatic.

Anyway, it helps to have a whole "kit" of trick and techniques from which to draw!
Click to expand...

Your speed has nothing to do with the crosswind component, which is a function of the strength and direction of the wind. The extra speed may give you additional energy to counter the effects of the crosswind, but it also brings in other factors you may have to manage such as float and getting the plane slowed down.
 
PaulS said:
Your speed has nothing to do with the crosswind component, which is a function of the strength and direction of the wind. The extra speed may give you additional energy to counter the effects of the crosswind, but it also brings in other factors you may have to manage such as float and getting the plane slowed down.
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Relative wind changes vector with speed. It's irrelevant to the issue since as was pointed out above, you still have to slow through that speed anyway. Me Personall, I drag all the flaps I can and am touching down as slow as I can regardless what the wind is doing. If I can't keep it aligned with the runway well enough to keep it on, I'm going to line up with some other surface to land on.
 
CharlieTango said:
There is another down side. You can land fast but you have to slow down through a vulnerable speed that you avoided by landing fast.

When you slow down to that transition speed you become more at the mercy of the winds it is just later in the landing sequence after some fast taxiing.
Click to expand...
If the mains are solidly planted on the runway and you have good brakes, it's much less of a big deal. If you have POS brakes and you are stuck there with the tail in the air and nothing blowing across the rudder, then it is a whole different story. One needs to know one's airplane.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
If the mains are solidly planted on the runway and you have good brakes, it's much less of a big deal. If you have POS brakes and you are stuck there with the tail in the air and nothing blowing across the rudder, then it is a whole different story. One needs to know one's airplane.
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The thing is if you land fast then you are on the ground with flying speed so the mains are only solidly planted if the winds cooperate.

Braking to transition from a fast landing transfers weight to the nose and now you have less on the mains, the next step, with a gust assist, can be the wheel barrow configuration headed for the upwind runway edge.
 
Gusty crosswinds and mechanical turbulence are more normal than not for me and my primary destination strip is only 15' wide so tracking it is kinda important. Contrary to some of the comments here I manage the conditions by using a typical smooth air approach speed and a higher/steeper final leg. That allows me to deal with gusts upsetting the course and/or speed much more effectively than a flatter or faster approach would allow. Touchdown at the slowest possible speed is always my goal. And the lighter the airplane the more important that procedure becomes. I used to fly my Cessna and Cub in and out of the same strips in the same conditions and the little light airplane gets bullied by the wind more than the heavier one. I believe Fast Eddie's plane is pretty darn light so his gusty crosswind flying has that to account for.
 
Stewartb said:
Gusty crosswinds and mechanical turbulence are more normal than not for me and my primary destination strip is only 15' wide so tracking it is kinda important. Contrary to some of the comments here I manage the conditions by using a typical smooth air approach speed and a higher/steeper final leg. That allows me to deal with gusts upsetting the course and/or speed much more effectively than a flatter or faster approach would allow. Touchdown at the slowest possible speed is always my goal. And the lighter the airplane the more important that procedure becomes. I used to fly my Cessna and Cub in and out of the same strips in the same conditions and the little light airplane gets bullied by the wind more than the heavier one. I believe Fast Eddie's plane is pretty darn light so his gusty crosswind flying has that to account for.
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15 feet wide? Oh my.
 
CharlieTango said:
The thing is if you land fast then you are on the ground with flying speed so the mains are only solidly planted if the winds cooperate.

Braking to transition from a fast landing transfers weight to the nose and now you have less on the mains, the next step, with a gust assist, can be the wheel barrow configuration headed for the upwind runway edge.
Click to expand...
Not an issue when the tailwheel is on the correct end.
 
Wheel landing in a strong crosswind I find it works better to stay off the brakes until both mains are firmly on the ground. When you side-slip into the wind that's not gonna' happen until quite late in the roll.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
If the mains are solidly planted on the runway and you have good brakes, it's much less of a big deal. If you have POS brakes and you are stuck there with the tail in the air and nothing blowing across the rudder, then it is a whole different story. One needs to know one's airplane.
Click to expand...
I'm trying to visualize how you get both mains solidly planted on the runway in a crosswind wheel landing? Assuming you use the sideslip method you'll have the upwind wheel on the runway while the downwind wheel is still in the air :confused:
 
Only if you maintain flying speed. I decelerate to landing. I can't hold a wheel off unless I'm going too fast and the airplane isn't committed to the ground.
 
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