[rant] How to lose a customer. Car stuff / Replacing Spark Plugs

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

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So First off I am seething as I write this.
I just had a mechanic tell me "There is no way you can change your own plugs" OMG. It's cold and I don't want to but I sure as hell can.

Ok backup.

1. I was in the middle of absolute nowhere and my car was making a tapping noise. I get under the hood and realize whomever did my last oil change didn't screw the filter on well at all and I am leaking oil. I pull into the closest quick stop and buy the only oil they sell which was I think 10w40. My car takes 5w20 but I had no other option.

I threw that into the car and got home. The next day, anytime I start the car, a nice blast of white smoke comes out the back and at a stop light the check engine light comes on and the car has a noticable miss when idle.

Hook it up to the scanner and Cylinder 2 is missing. It drives fine but at idle, I can feel the miss.

I take it to Meineke today and tell them I need oil change and a tune up
$115 to look at the car $800 for a tune up.

I say Nope that's too expensive and he says you are not going to find a cheaper price. I said I will just do it myself. He says "You can't change these plugs"

WTF? you just lost a customer.

I call another mom and pop shop and he says $500 for the tune up but then he says. Lets just change the oil, you have a variable valve injectinoidergometeration (no idea what he said) something was variable and he said that oil could certainly be causing the miss and getting the right oil may fix the problem.

I looked up a video on youtube showing spark plug replacement (2007 6cyl outlander) and it looks like a pain in the azz but completely doable.

My bad:
I wasn't aware that oil differences were specific and different enough that the wrong kind could cause a problem. They all sort of look the same. And I totally drove it too long w/ the bad oil. I should have done an oil change the next day. I effed up there but learned from it.

Don't tell your customers they can't do something on their own and you are their only hope. Unless they have no arms and you are doing a tandem skydive, I don't see how this is valid and certainly not something you say.

Meineke can suck it and now I am going to get rid of my George Foreman grill too since he is the spokesperson for Meineke. Hell, I hate boxing now.
 
Hate to tell you this but it isn't the oil that is the problem. If it was the smoke coming out of your tailpipe would be blue not white. White smoke out the tailpipe and a misfire is almost always from a blown headgasket. You are leaking antifreeze into the cylinder. $500 for a tuneup also seemes insanely expensive. It should be 1 to 2 hours labor plus a few parts (air filter, plugs, oil and filter, etc). Most places should be under $250 for a full tuneup.

Keith
 
The smoke is like 1 puff on initial start.

2 hrs labor 20 each for 6 plugs 100 each for something called coil packs which is some harness wired to the plug.
 
WHITE smoke?

You are leaking coolant or brake fluid into the combustion chamber. Coolant is more likely, and it's real expensive to fix. But do pull off the power brake booster vacuum line and see if it's wet, just in case you get real lucky. If it's wet, you need a master cylinder, and probably a brake booster too (the fluid eats the seal and it leaks). That's a decent DIY if you know how to bleed it.

The most common reason for WHITE smoke is a blown head gasket. On a V6, it can instead by a loose intake manifold (let's hope). You do not want a cheap "head gasket" replacement, or you'll be doing it again. The heads must be torn down and inspected as it is not at all uncommon for the heads to crack when the head gasket blows. And it's a real good idea to flatten the heads a LITTLE (too much on a V6, and the intake will never seal).

And it might even be worse if the engine overheated.

Why in the hell do they want to replace the coil packs? I don't believe in a million years that all will go at once. Does this car have 3 or 6?
 
[un rant] how to get a customer.

Decided to go next door to Shell Rapid Lube.
I tell him my story and he says I don't want your money, i want your business.

I am going to change the oil so we can get that mistake undone.
Then I am going to turn the warning light off.

After that, you drive around for a day or two. If it comes back on, bring it in and I will work with you and we can do what we have to to try and keep it under $350

If the light doesn't come back on, I hope you think of me when you need your next oil change.

He just won my business.

Strangest thing, He did the oil change, we started the car, and the check engine light went off on its own after about 2 minutes. I asked him if he turned it off he said no. I told him it wasn't on and he goes "See, the car heard me give you good advice and it's happy now"

Crap morning just got a lot better.
 
Ummmm.... you do realize you have a auto repair and part resource to confer with on who to go to to address this issue?
 
MAKG1 said:
WHITE smoke?

You are leaking coolant or brake fluid into the combustion chamber. Coolant is more likely, and it's real expensive to fix. But do pull off the power brake booster vacuum line and see if it's wet, just in case you get real lucky. If it's wet, you need a master cylinder, and probably a brake booster too (the fluid eats the seal and it leaks). That's a decent DIY if you know how to bleed it.

The most common reason for WHITE smoke is a blown head gasket. On a V6, it can instead by a loose intake manifold (let's hope). You do not want a cheap "head gasket" replacement, or you'll be doing it again. The heads must be torn down and inspected as it is not at all uncommon for the heads to crack when the head gasket blows. And it's a real good idea to flatten the heads a LITTLE (too much on a V6, and the intake will never seal).

And it might even be worse if the engine overheated.

Why in the hell do they want to replace the coil packs? I don't believe in a million years that all will go at once. Does this car have 3 or 6?
Click to expand...


6

[this message is too short so I am adding this. Least favorite feature of POA]
 
AggieMike88 said:
Ummmm.... you do realize you have a auto repair and part resource to confer with on who to go to to address this issue?
Click to expand...

haha yes.
I am at my wife's office with sick daughter so my options this morning have to be in walking distance whilst carrying a 5 year old. Meineke and Shell are it.

I know at a min, I needed to get the bad oil out and the correct oil back in.

I drove it back from the shell place and stopped and started again 2 times and so far no more smoke, and no more misfire.

keeping fingers crossed.
 
I paid $20 for 6 "performance" plugs and put them in myself. Make sure you gap them properly. Oil changes cost me about $65, though. Then again, I go around 7K between changes.

If you want it done right, do it yourself.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
I paid $20 for 6 "performance" plugs and put them in myself. Make sure you gap them properly. Oil changes cost me about $65, though. Then again, I go around 7K between changes.

If you want it done right, do it yourself.
Click to expand...

I did it myself. That's how I broke it ;)
 
If the office is anywhere near Loop 288 and McKinney Street in Denton, one of the better import shops is near there. Call Jason @ All About Imports, 940-566-2125. Tell him you got the referral from me.

He's a two man shop, knows his car technical stuff, and really understands what it takes to earn your long term business and keep it.
 
Mixing oil viscocities causing white smoke? I don't see how that would happen.

Have you pulled the spark plugs? If they have oil on them then you have a leaking valve cover gasket. I had this problem on two cars now. I let one of them go for while which ruined the ignition coil and the catalytic converter.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
I paid $20 for 6 "performance" plugs and put them in myself. Make sure you gap them properly.

If you want it done right, do it yourself.
Click to expand...

CAREFUL. Some plugs cannot be gapped. And at $20/plug, it sure sounds like these might be of that category (iridium tipped).

Plugs are usually pretty easy to install, but some transverse mounted V6s, particularly in FWD vans and minivans, get ridiculous. In aluminum heads, don't forget the anti-seize or you'll spall the threads on removal (which won't be anywhere near 100K miles the second time, as hard tipped plugs foul just the same as copper tipped plugs).
 
I asked the guy at the shop about putting in the wrong oil and he said it is a really bad idea but between no oil and the wrong oil, you gotta have oil.

I really expected "Yeah, you are an idiot you should have walked"
 
MAKG1 said:
CAREFUL. Some plugs cannot be gapped. And at $20/plug, it sure sounds like these might be of that category (iridium tipped).

Plugs are usually pretty easy to install, but some transverse mounted V6s, particularly in FWD vans and minivans, get ridiculous.
Click to expand...

They are iridium tipped.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
The smoke is like 1 puff on initial start.

2 hrs labor 20 each for 6 plugs 100 each for something called coil packs which is some harness wired to the plug.
Click to expand...

Definitely sounds like coolant. It drips into the cylinders when parked, and puffs out on initial start. Tune-up will not fix that.

I hadn't heard of ignition coils being replaced as part of routine tune-ups. But they are easy to replace. You can get then on amazon and do it yourself.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I asked the guy at the shop about putting in the wrong oil and he said it is a really bad idea but between no oil and the wrong oil, you gotta have oil.

I really expected "Yeah, you are an idiot you should have walked"
Click to expand...

Well, the best thing would have been to have walked or had it towed, but no oil or aerated oil is a whole helluva lot worse than the wrong oil.
 
MadseasoN said:
Mixing oil viscocities causing white smoke? I don't see how that would happen.

Have you pulled the spark plugs? If they have oil on them then you have a leaking valve cover gasket. I had this problem on two cars now. I let one of them go for while which ruined the ignition coil and the catalytic converter.
Click to expand...

How does the valve cover gasket leak oil to the inside of the spark plug?

If it's leaking onto the exhaust manifold, it's a fire risk, but otherwise, it's an annoyance. There is no way to get it inside the cat from that fault. Much more likely, you have excessive blow-by and you're blowing oil through the PCV system.
 
sarangan said:
Definitely sounds like coolant. It drips into the cylinders when parked, and puffs out on initial start. Tune-up will not fix that.

I hadn't heard of ignition coils being replaced as part of routine tune-ups. But they are easy to replace. You can get then on amazon and do it yourself.
Click to expand...

Wasn't the starter coil if that is what you are referencing, it was something he called a coil pack. He said there are 6 and it is a pard of the wiring harness for lack of a better term leading to the spark plug and its housing.

He said they may not need to be replaced but if he id going to get in there he should because just getting to it is a pain.
 
Unless the oil filter was loose to the point that one of your kids could have twisted it off with their hand that was not your problem. They don't have to torqued much at all. How loose was it? This really sounds like a gasket issue.

Did you get a low oil pressure light? If so you're probably hosed.

how did you determine it was leaking from the oil filter? This is not a common thing unless someone seriously messed up.

I always install oil filters by just making them as tight as I can with whatever hand I can reach it with. Makes removal a hell of a lot easier.

Is your coolant dropping? Google what coolant in oil looks like and look at your oil asap.

Start mentally preparing yourself for learning how to do major engine work or writing someone a check that can.

Please please tell me you took it back to the shop that messed it up so they could see they did it. If not no way you'll be able to hold them liable.
 
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MAKG1 said:
How does the valve cover gasket leak oil to the inside of the spark plug?

If it's leaking onto the exhaust manifold, it's a fire risk, but otherwise, it's an annoyance. There is no way to get it inside the cat from that fault. Much more likely, you have excessive blow-by and you're blowing oil through the PCV system.
Click to expand...

He might have been saying that oil was leaking on to the outside insulator and also into the coil pack. This would cause a misfire, causing the cat to overheat.
 
I agree that "you can't do that yourself" is bad bad bad customer relations. Had a Saturn shop tell me that about my kid's alternator ... never came back.

Now, some things on some vehicles might be true with "You probably don't want to try to do that yourself" ... like spark plugs on the aluminum head F-150 ...
 
Also worth pointing out, I do not know how much oil I had lost and I added more than needed. It was dark and I just needed to get going. This morning, the oil was over the max so not sure if having too much could have been another reason for things going wonky. Would make sense if it did since it "fixed itself" so quickly after the oil change this morning. They obviously added a calculated amount.

One other thing. You know what's in my car now?
A flashlight. And a funnel. Both would have been helpful.
 
Anyone can fix anything themselves if they are determined enough. The Honda dealer told me about a week ago that there was no way for me to replace my wheel bearings myself in my garage without a hydraulic press and training.

$7 worth of stuff at an industrial bolt supplier and I had myself a home made pneumatic press system :)

bQhl7ul.jpg
 
MAKG1 said:
How does the valve cover gasket leak oil to the inside of the spark plug?

If it's leaking onto the exhaust manifold, it's a fire risk, but otherwise, it's an annoyance. There is no way to get it inside the cat from that fault. Much more likely, you have excessive blow-by and you're blowing oil through the PCV system.
Click to expand...

It doesn't.

If the vehicle has COP ignition system, like most modern vehicles do, then you may end up with the problem I described. Look at the picture in the link. The valve cover gasket seals the spark plug access tube. If that tube fills with oil it can, and probably will, ruin the coil over time.

Bad coils and misfires can ruin catylytic converters. At least on my car it did.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/copign.htm
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Also worth pointing out, I do not know how much oil I had lost and I added more than needed. It was dark and I just needed to get going. This morning, the oil was over the max so not sure if having too much could have been another reason for things going wonky. Would make sense if it did since it "fixed itself" so quickly after the oil change this morning. They obviously added a calculated amount.

One other thing. You know what's in my car now?
A flashlight. And a funnel. Both would have been helpful.
Click to expand...

Sounds to me like you added way too much oil, which then causes the crank to whip a bunch of air into your oil, which then makes the oil pretty worthless for lubricating your bearings...making the chance of major engine damage a very strong reality. The tapping noise was your engine telling you something VERY BAD is happening.

Also with too much oil, it's going to start getting on the cylinder walls and the rings aren't going to seat well, the result is going to be excess smoke and fouled spark plugs.

So at this point you've done all you can do. I would change the spark plugs out of caution just because they may still be fouled. Just hope like hell nothing got scored and your bearings didn't get trashed or you're going to be looking at dropping a new engine into this car. The chance of premature engine failure is greatly increased now.

Just be very careful with oil in the future. Too much oil is really bad. About as bad as no oil. And is worse than "low oil".

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. We all **** up. That's how we learn. Just want you to understand what happened and what you may be looking at :)

If it was indeed leaking from the filter and you changed the filter yourself then either you completely forgot to tighten it (it happens) or the old gasket from the old filter was still attached to the engine and you tightened up the new filter against the old gasket.

To make you feel a little better - I once changed the oil on a motorcycle and was talking on the phone at the same time. I completely forgot to tighten the drain plug and had simply put it in by hand. I then launched on a 2,000 mile motorcycle trip the next morning. A few hundred miles into the ride, when I was decelerating into a rest stop, my oil pressure light came on. I immediately hit the kill switch and coasted to a stop. I got incredibly lucky that it fell out at interstate speeds with the engine revved at a fairly high RPM that caused enough vacuum pressure to be present to stop oil from leaking out of the motorcycle until I reduced the power setting on the engine. No damage took place but that was a miracle. I could have easily trashed the engine.
 
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SixPapaCharlie said:
Wasn't the starter coil if that is what you are referencing, it was something he called a coil pack. He said there are 6 and it is a pard of the wiring harness for lack of a better term leading to the spark plug and its housing.

He said they may not need to be replaced but if he id going to get in there he should because just getting to it is a pain.
Click to expand...

I hate it when mechanics do that.

It's one thing to throw in a $15 rear main seal when the transmission is off for a rebuild/clutch/whatever. But all six coil packs? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

If a mechanic can't determine whether they need replacement with an ohmmeter, he shouldn't be working on cars. Sometimes, you can disconnect a remote harness and test them from there.

And I'm real sure at least three of them are trivial or nearly so to get off. The other three might be a PITA, depending on the application. They aren't a problem on my Camry, but the intake plenum has to come off.
 
I never got an oil light or any other warnings. but I heard the tapping and the oil filter was loose. really loose.

I used to work on classic cars and the sound was reminiscent of not enough oil getting up into the valves.

When I added the oil, the tapping stopped.

I have to drive across town to pick my son up from school and will have a better idea of how the car is behaving. Few miles on the Highway and a few miles in stop n go.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I never got an oil light or any other warnings. but I heard the tapping and the oil filter was loose. really loose.

I used to work on classic cars and the sound was reminiscent of not enough oil getting up into the valves.

When I added the oil, the tapping stopped.

I have to drive across town to pick my son up from school and will have a better idea of how the car is behaving. Few miles on the Highway and a few miles in stop n go.
Click to expand...

You might be OK. The lack of oil causing valve noise and then the too much oil causing oil to aerate and get into your cylinders were both events that definitely "added a lot of miles" to that engine. But, engines are surprisingly tough sometimes.
 
MAKG1 said:
WHITE smoke?

You are leaking coolant or brake fluid into the combustion chamber. Coolant is more likely, and it's real expensive to fix. But do pull off the power brake booster vacuum line and see if it's wet, just in case you get real lucky. If it's wet, you need a master cylinder, and probably a brake booster too (the fluid eats the seal and it leaks). That's a decent DIY if you know how to bleed it.

The most common reason for WHITE smoke is a blown head gasket. On a V6, it can instead by a loose intake manifold (let's hope). You do not want a cheap "head gasket" replacement, or you'll be doing it again. The heads must be torn down and inspected as it is not at all uncommon for the heads to crack when the head gasket blows. And it's a real good idea to flatten the heads a LITTLE (too much on a V6, and the intake will never seal).

And it might even be worse if the engine overheated.

Why in the hell do they want to replace the coil packs? I don't believe in a million years that all will go at once. Does this car have 3 or 6?
Click to expand...

Replacing all the packs at once is a matter of philosophy. Being that they are a semi wear item, I'd probably want all six done so I didn't have to come back every 10,000 miles or so as they failed.
 
FormerHangie said:
Replacing all the packs at once is a matter of philosophy. Being that they are a semi wear item, I'd probably want all six done so I didn't have to come back every 10,000 miles or so as they failed.
Click to expand...

Yeah, philosophy. Two years ago I had two COPs go bad on the truck in rapid succession, so I replaced just those two. The other 6 are still fine at 14 years old. I carry a spare in the truck, so I can always have a place pop one on in a pinch if needed.
 
jesse said:
You might be OK. The lack of oil causing valve noise and then the too much oil causing oil to aerate and get into your cylinders were both events that definitely "added a lot of miles" to that engine. But, engines are surprisingly tough sometimes.
Click to expand...

I hope so. 115k miles and close to paid off.
If I can go 5 years w/ no payment, that would be ideal.
I need to take better care of it though.

The mechanic said he had 2 cars in this month that had over 400k miles on them. He said to do that, you have to maintainthem impeccably. He said there is no reason I shouldn't be able to get mine to 200k if I treat it right.
 
At this point I would take the advice of most here and place the changed your oil for you.
Wait , hope, pray to who ever that it is all good now.
After a few days you should know.
 
And this is why you really want an old car with a good old-fashioned distributor.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I hope so. 115k miles and close to paid off.
If I can go 5 years w/ no payment, that would be ideal.
I need to take better care of it though.
Click to expand...

Auto engines are pretty tough and even if things go south it's a heck of a lot cheaper to put a new (rebuilt) engine in it than make payments and pay taxes on a new one.

Find a good shop to use even if they charge just a bit more than the up front cost at some other place. It isn't necessary to learn to do your own maintenance once you find the good guys. Ya dun good running from the BS at Meineke.
 
Clark1961 said:
Auto engines are pretty tough and even if things go south it's a heck of a lot cheaper to put a new (rebuilt) engine in it than make payments and pay taxes on a new one.

Find a good shop to use even if they charge just a bit more than the up front cost at some other place. It isn't necessary to learn to do your own maintenance once you find the good guys. Ya dun good running from the BS at Meineke.
Click to expand...


I try to do most of my own work. I do a little ROI in my head balancing my time/ busted knuckles against cost.

2 weeks back they were going to charge me $600 to replace a motor mount in my wifes car. Hers was shot. I looked it up and the mount was $90 the process to change it was going to be about an hour for me so that was a no brainer.

I might have tackled the plugs on my car but my ROI this morning had to account for it being near freezing out, and having a sick daughter. If I thought I could wait until next weekend, I would probably have waited and done it myself.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
The smoke is like 1 puff on initial start.

2 hrs labor 20 each for 6 plugs 100 each for something called coil packs which is some harness wired to the plug.
Click to expand...

All cars puff a little white smoke until the exhaust system warms up. It's called condensation.

No need to replace a coil pack unless it has gone bad.

10W-40 did not cause your variable cam timing to go wonkey.

Low oil that let the lifter's collapse could have caused it to flag a misfire even if there is no misfire.
 
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