Student Starts & Pilot Retention

[txflyer]

HAHA no joke. We replaced a starter solenoid in our PA-28 235. It said "Chrysler" on the part so we knew that back in 1964 they were pulling from the same part bin. However, in this day and age...we could find the same car part for under $20. We obviously took the FAA certified part route and paid $125.

And this is a starter solenoid...a piece of metal with no moving parts that at the most costs someone $5 to make.

It does get old...

My son got heavy handed and broke the little window latch on the skywagon once, and I quipped to him that it would probably be $100.00.

It was $275.00

It looks like one of those triangle window latches off a '76 Chevy pickup that a junk yard man would probably just give it to you if you pulled it yourself.

 

[RV10flyer]

GA being dead ain't the fault of the news.

Yes, I am sure there are many factors. One can barely give free rides away around here.

 

[kenjr]

Well, plain and simple...it ain't cheap, especially if it's for 'fun'. Start with planning $8-10k just to get a PPL not including the time it takes to get that done. I'd say the time is a bigger issue than the price for most...I don't think a lot of people realize just how much it takes...and how LONG it takes for someone who has a job, family, etc... I went along at a pretty good clip flying at least once a week usually twice and for 2 hours at a time and it took me about 7 months total to get it done. You have to be pretty committed to stick with that. My wife was about done with me leaving for most of a Saturday/Sunday to fly by the time it was over (keep in mind I also have 3 young boys...).

Now, once you're done with your PPL it's pretty easy to find a plane to rent for a $100 hamburger run (availability might be an issue...) but it's a pain and expensive to find one that you can fly 700 miles away and leave it on the apron for a week while you vacation.

A plane with some amount of utility that can haul a family around is likely in the $75-100k range on the low side...plus or minus. Not many folks I know could even float the cash to buy a 1/4 share outright and keep up with all the bills...insurance, hangar fees, annuals, etc... The fuel costs are killing aviation, IMHO. I don't know how schools on big airports do it. Right now, gas on my field (about 20 miles north of Austin, TX) is $3.35 while it's over $6 at Austin Bergstrom International.

There are a lot of factors that go into all of it and I'd say that there are a lot of reasons why GA isn't thriving but time and money are the biggest.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Back in the thriving GA days if Dad wanted to race sailboats on the weekend the family raced sailboats on the weekend, if dad wanted to fly planes on the weekend the family went to the airport. Or at least dad did without grief. More then money is the emasculation of the American man leaving him without the cajones to claim his time. Lots of time involved hobbies dying for the same reason. People have time they just won't claim it.

My wife was about done with me leaving for most of a Saturday/Sunday to fly by the time it was over (keep in mind I also have 3 young boys...).

 

[Jay Honeck]

Well, plain and simple...it ain't cheap, especially if it's for 'fun'. Start with planning $8-10k just to get a PPL not including the time it takes to get that done. I'd say the time is a bigger issue than the price for most...I don't think a lot of people realize just how much it takes...and how LONG it takes for someone who has a job, family, etc... I went along at a pretty good clip flying at least once a week usually twice and for 2 hours at a time and it took me about 7 months total to get it done. You have to be pretty committed to stick with that. My wife was about done with me leaving for most of a Saturday/Sunday to fly by the time it was over (keep in mind I also have 3 young boys...).

Now, once you're done with your PPL it's pretty easy to find a plane to rent for a $100 hamburger run (availability might be an issue...) but it's a pain and expensive to find one that you can fly 700 miles away and leave it on the apron for a week while you vacation.

A plane with some amount of utility that can haul a family around is likely in the $75-100k range on the low side...plus or minus. Not many folks I know could even float the cash to buy a 1/4 share outright and keep up with all the bills...insurance, hangar fees, annuals, etc... The fuel costs are killing aviation, IMHO. I don't know how schools on big airports do it. Right now, gas on my field (about 20 miles north of Austin, TX) is $3.35 while it's over $6 at Austin Bergstrom International.

There are a lot of factors that go into all of it and I'd say that there are a lot of reasons why GA isn't thriving but time and money are the biggest.

Not buying it. This has NOTHING to do with money.

I live in the boating capital of Texas. I am on an island, literally surrounded by hundreds of boats, costing exponentially more than my airplane -- and they are utterly USELESS devices for anything except...

Socializing. Getting drunk. Showing off. Things guys with money enjoy doing.

Henning is right. We need to get the SOCIAL aspects of airports and flying back on-track. To that end, we are making our new hangar into a social center for the airport. Open bar, whenever you see the "Beer flag" flying.

Here's our new Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/HoneckHangar

If you see the beer flag flying, come in for a cold one!

 

[clarkmueller]

I've said it many times before, if you want new blood in GA and to get it to grow, a major social aspect needs to be added that doesn't revolve around old men telling kids to get off their lawn.

Speaking as a representative of that generation of pilots that will, I hope, be flying for the next 40+ years, I couldn't agree with this more.

 

[kenjr]

Henning is right. We need to get the SOCIAL aspects of airports and flying back on-track. To that end, we are making our new hangar into a social center for the airport. Open bar, whenever you see the "Beer flag" flying.

Ah, but you see 2 of the three things you mention that are so attractive to the boating clientele don't go so well with aviation.

Getting drunk. Showing off.

Comparing boating and the activities typically associated with it (drinking, bikini's, sun rays, etc...) to sitting around a t-hangar drinking beer is like comparing apples to oranges.

I don't disagree that it would be nice to see more social activities taking place on or around the airport but that's not the end all be all.

That said, I hope to make it down your way at some point...KRAS is on my list...defintely want to come down for some golf and perhaps stay a night or two...and would certainly love to partake in the open bar.

 

[masloki]

Need to get a webcam set up so I know when the flag is flying and to make the flight down Oh wait, it is -4 F in Chicago. I should just make the flight down regardless.

 

[Everskyward]

I don't think this is a new problem. I learned to fly at a university flying club which was open to students, staff, faculty and alumni. I think the school itself had an enrollment of about 20,000 students. The flying club probably had about 100 dues paying members of which maybe 30 were truly active. This was in the late 1970s.

 

[FlyingIsGood]

Ah, but you see 2 of the three things you mention that are so attractive to the boating clientele don't go so well with aviation.

Getting drunk. Showing off.

Comparing boating and the activities typically associated with it (drinking, bikini's, sun rays, etc...) to sitting around a t-hangar drinking beer is like comparing apples to oranges.

I don't disagree that it would be nice to see more social activities taking place on or around the airport but that's not the end all be all.

I'm going to second this and add that just about anyone can go to the boat store, buy one, and hit the water in the same day. Other than the younger crowd needing to take a Boating Safety course, there's no real hurdles to entry. Getting a pilot's license takes a great deal of focus, dedication, and time just to qualify to operate. That alone leads me to be opine that the two are not wholly comparable.

I think sailing is more comparable to GA than boating as a whole. Although it doesn't require a license, it does require experience and skill to operate effectively - more so than pushing the throttle forward and turning the wheel of a most runabouts.

The same concerns regarding falling numbers are happening in the sailing community as well. The fleet is old, new boats are very expensive and, although more accessible than GA, neither have an intuitive entry point. I can attest to this on both fronts. The crowd is very similar, even if the subjects have their differences. Unless an outsider actively pursues either activity in an exercise to feed a desire, or is (coincidentally) surrounded by active participants, they'll continue to acknowledge its existence, but ignore it as the expensive hobby of rich old men.

Also... Airports, marinas, etc. aren't places the average Joe believes he has access to - especially the Alcatraz-esque physical barriers around airports. They've had FAA, TSA, TERRORISTS, KEEP OUT hammered into their brains to the point that they figure it impossible to approach such OFF LIMITS areas from street level. To some degree, it is!

I agree that there needs to be more social activities surrounding GA that are easily accessible and open to the public. Many of you are doing your part by trying to create a welcoming environment, but the majority of your voice is being heard within the community rather than the public at large. I'm just now trying to break back in to GA, so I haven't written a manual on it - yet - but I will definitely be trying to immerse myself in the scene and share that info with others.

So, what social events are happening in/around Houston airspace??

 

[kenjr]

Also... Airports, marinas, etc. aren't places the average Joe believes he has access to - especially the Alcatraz-esque physical barriers around airports. They've had FAA, TSA, TERRORISTS, KEEP OUT hammered into their brains to the point that they figure it impossible to approach such OFF LIMITS areas from street level. To some degree, it is!

No kidding. I've lost track in just my 2 years flying how many people have asked the question, "So, can you just go over the airport and fly somewhere right now? Without asking anyone?"

Me: "Yup."

Them: "Wow...."

If you put a boat into the scenario ie; go down to the local marina and rent a party boat or something for the day no one would be the least bit surprised to find out that Joe Q. Public went over, got his credit card out and made a weekend out of flying around on the lake, dragging people behind the boat and drinking a coolers worth of beer.

 

[FlyingIsGood]

No kidding. I've lost track in just my 2 years flying how many people have asked the question, "So, can you just go over the airport and fly somewhere right now? Without asking anyone?"

Me: "Yup."

Them: "Wow...."

If you put a boat into the scenario ie; go down to the local marina and rent a party boat or something for the day no one would be the least bit surprised to find out that Joe Q. Public went over, got his credit card out and made a weekend out of flying around on the lake, dragging people behind the boat and drinking a coolers worth of beer.

Exactly. Plus, they assume that visiting any airport means TSA will be waiting to fondle them - after they've cleared the retnial scan, DNA sampling, NSA/DHS/CIA/FBI background investigation, three-day waiting period, and military escort.

 

[Tflhndn]

No one in their right mind lives in Seattle.



Seriously, just when you think it couldn't get any worse, it does. I went flying this afternoon, and there was no one -- NO ONE -- flying.



Of course, then I realized that the Cowboys were playing the Lions, and everyone for 600 miles in any direction in Texas was watching TV.



But seriously, when I learned to fly twenty years ago, this kind of an offer would have been big news, and on every bulletin board at every FBO. "Fly to Mustang Island this winter, and stay FOR FREE -- all you have to do is pass your check-ride!"



So spread the word. Generate some buzz. Show some life, GA -- I'm tired of watching you wither and die.

Hope you will keep this offer open for a while. I started 12/27 and only have 3.1 hrs, but I would love to take the missus on a flight and take you up on the offer when I get my ticket

 

[kenjr]

haha - yeah that's a big one. When I describe the travel experience on an actual trip leaving my airport and arriving at the FBO at an international airport getting the red carpet treatment, my rental car sent over from the terminal then pulled around on the apron next to my plane, the services available at FBO's (showers, quiet rooms, kitchens, conference facilities, food, courtesty cars, etc...) they quickly realize that GA is a whole different deal.

I've taken my wife and now my bro/sister in law from Austin to Lubbock and my wife will not go anymore unless the weather is good enough to fly. She flat won't get the in the car and go. My bro/sister in law were both frightened to fly in a GA plane and after a few trips - including turning a 5.5 hour drive into a 1:50 minute flight to Lubbock - they don't want to travel any other way.

The reality is I think that most people getting into GA now are doing so because there is some utility in it for them. Sure, there are guys like me who have just wanted to do it their whole life and finally made it a priority, albiet in my early 40's. But most I'd guess are either pursuing an aviation career of some type or have some kind of a mission and usually that means the freedom of being able to get somewhere without the constraints and hassles of flying the big iron. They aren't doing it because they want people to come hang out at their hangar and ooh and ahhh at how cool it is that they have their own plane. Hell, even if you sit around and drink a bunch of beer well now you can't even do what you came to the airport for...fly the damn plane.

I do agree that there are a lot of grumpy codgers around but almost everyone I've run into at my airport is friendly as heck. I'd love to see more activities, fly-in's or fly-out's to various places for lunch, etc... but as I said, I think that's one small step towards turning things around.

I read a report today that postulates that oil will drop to $30-40 a barrel which could potentially bring 100LL prices in my area down in the mid $2 range. If that happens, I guarantee the airspace will get busy around here. Thing is, it ain't gonna stay down there forever.

 

[txflyer]

Back in the thriving GA days if Dad wanted to race sailboats on the weekend the family raced sailboats on the weekend, if dad wanted to fly planes on the weekend the family went to the airport. Or at least dad did without grief. More then money is the emasculation of the American man leaving him without the cajones to claim his time. Lots of time involved hobbies dying for the same reason. People have time they just won't claim it.

There's a lot of sense to this post.

 

[nimdabew]

No one in their right mind lives in Seattle.

Seriously, just when you think it couldn't get any worse, it does. I went flying this afternoon, and there was no one -- NO ONE -- flying.

Of course, then I realized that the Cowboys were playing the Lions, and everyone for 600 miles in any direction in Texas was watching TV.

But seriously, when I learned to fly twenty years ago, this kind of an offer would have been big news, and on every bulletin board at every FBO. "Fly to Mustang Island this winter, and stay FOR FREE -- all you have to do is pass your check-ride!"

So spread the word. Generate some buzz. Show some life, GA -- I'm tired of watching you wither and die.

I am working on an E&E plan right now. Getting hitched, getting another 2k hours, and my pre-wife getting her residency out of the way are the current challenges.

 

[Henning]

Henning is right. We need to get the SOCIAL aspects of airports and flying back on-track. To that end, we are making our new hangar into a social center for the airport. Open bar, whenever you see the "Beer flag" flying.

Ah, but you see 2 of the three things you mention that are so attractive to the boating clientele don't go so well with aviation.

Getting drunk. Showing off.

Comparing boating and the activities typically associated with it (drinking, bikini's, sun rays, etc...) to sitting around a t-hangar drinking beer is like comparing apples to oranges.

I don't disagree that it would be nice to see more social activities taking place on or around the airport but that's not the end all be all.

That said, I hope to make it down your way at some point...KRAS is on my list...defintely want to come down for some golf and perhaps stay a night or two...and would certainly love to partake in the open bar.

Sail boat regattas usually meet at the yacht club bar for drinks after the racing is done. There used to be air rallies where 'showing off' was flying a route and landing exactly to the second of your predicted time. Doc Petersen could do it in his 310C using 2 Nav radios and 3 stop watches. Poker runs a a popular performance boat format of fun.

The point is to get people together around aviation, not necessarily only in flight.

 

[Henning]

I am working on an E&E plan right now. Getting hitched, getting another 2k hours, and my bride to be getting her residency out of the way are the current challenges.

FTFY, in case she ever reads this.

 

[StinkBug]

I think sailing is more comparable to GA than boating as a whole. Although it doesn't require a license, it does require experience and skill to operate effectively - more so than pushing the throttle forward and turning the wheel of a most runabouts.

I've been sailing and teaching people to sail for enough years I dont want to admit it. I've taught people to sail in a couple hours. It's not difficult. I'm a member of a club that will rent sail boats to ANYONE off the street, and they do it all day every day. Harder than pushing a throttle, yes, but there's no comparison to flying a plane. You'd also be surprised just how hard you can plow a 22' sail boat into a dock without causing damage.

 

[FlyingIsGood]

I've been sailing and teaching people to sail for enough years I dont want to admit it. I've taught people to sail in a couple hours. It's not difficult. I'm a member of a club that will rent sail boats to ANYONE off the street, and they do it all day every day. Harder than pushing a throttle, yes, but there's no comparison to flying a plane. You'd also be surprised just how hard you can plow a 22' sail boat into a dock without causing damage.

I won't argue the disparity in difficulty between piloting aircraft and sailing, but I don't believe a person with "a couple hours" is capable of effectively sailing a boat other than heading back and forth in friendly waters. It only took me a couple of hours to pick that up as well. Once I started planning courses, or destinations, there were suddenly a lot more variables.

You can let someone take the controls of a plane, and they'll be able to change altitude and make turns pretty well after a couple of hours. No, they won't be ready to solo, but they'll get the general idea. This is the same way I feel about sailing.

And I'll agree that 'takeoff and landing' (docking) in a sailboat requires some preparation and experience to park the thing without tearing the whole place up.

Either way, both communities are suffering falling numbers, and there some similar reasons. Given aviation's initial training requirement, public perception and experience with airports, and lower accessibility level, it's going to take some serious public outreach and social activity to slow the hemorrhaging.

 

[Henning]

I've been sailing and teaching people to sail for enough years I dont want to admit it. I've taught people to sail in a couple hours. It's not difficult. I'm a member of a club that will rent sail boats to ANYONE off the street, and they do it all day every day. Harder than pushing a throttle, yes, but there's no comparison to flying a plane. You'd also be surprised just how hard you can plow a 22' sail boat into a dock without causing damage.

Lol, I remember my days running Balboa Boat Rental. Are you over on Harbor Island?

 

[ClimbnSink]

All those barriers existed in the good old days. Only thing that has changed is men letting women tell them how they can spend their time.

 

[Henning]

You know what's funny, in another current thread, people are trying to discourage a guy who has the perfect opportunity to really make commuting in a plane work from doing so.

 

[Vance Breese]

All those barriers existed in the good old days. Only thing that has changed is men letting women tell them how they can spend their time.

Please step away from the mirror long enough to realize there may be men with divergent lifestyles from yours.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Please step away from the mirror long enough to realize there may be men with divergent lifestyles from yours.

I get what I want. If everyone else did presumably the sky would be full. Have fun at the mall.

 

[Indiana_Pilot]

I try very hard to bring in new students to our local airport.. the last two I brought in talked about it non-stop and after 1 flight with the instructor kinda stopped..

One of the guys is probably not cut out to fly and the other just wants to fly with me and pay for half my gas... (I'm ok with that )

I have people all the time ask me how to get started but none seem to want to put the effort into it or think it costs 100k to fly...

Maybe I can get free gas from the FBO if I bring in enough people ????!!!??

 

[masloki]

As an alternative, while it is a bummer for our hobby, I think it reflects that we live in a time of plenty. There are hundreds of things we can do any day that compete for our dollars. Aviating entertainment, in this case, a cognitive and physical challenge, is exciting but by no means the only option. Increasingly realistic games and unrealistic social networks, theater, every cuisine of the world within miles of your door, and countless others are all fighting for consideration. And, if you are talking dollars per hour, aviation is a pretty pricey way to go. 10 gallons per hour and typically 2 hours is never going to be cheap, especially when wherever you are going will take up some more cash.

And on the other hand, plenty of business, services and people to take care of things for you. Wrenching on cars, building ever cheaper tvs that you don't have to repair it when it breaks, angie's list handymen, mean it is faster and often cheaper for someone else to do it. I don't know half of what my father knows about fixing my house. I liked the challenge, and learned a skill so I could fly myself, but for many others, $99 takes you anywhere within EU or US.

So, my solution to getting more aviators? Lower the barrier to entry, lower costs, increase rewards. 1) 10x increase the energy capacity per pound for batteries so we can have electric planes 2) vastly simplify the airspace and its connected systems to reduce training 3) increase plane automation to reduce training 4) make CAPS and other safety system cheap and readily available to reduce fatalities to passenger and bystanders 5) STOL and similar so I can plop my plane down in a parking spot, not some airport.

This reads like the Jetsons. Ah well.

 

[bluerooster]

Compare those numbers to boats in the $500,000 (cheap piece of crap for new) and up range.

The only thing boats require is dollars. no specific training needed, up to a certian tonnage

 

[bluerooster]

You know what's funny, in another current thread, people are trying to discourage a guy who has the perfect opportunity to really make commuting in a plane work from doing so.

And I have no earthly idea why. I say if he can, go for it.

 

[txflyer]

All those barriers existed in the good old days. Only thing that has changed is men letting women tell them how they can spend their time.

My mom used to laugh (when she got older) that she went in the bedroom one time when they were younger and Dad was packing a bag and when she asked where he was going he said "it's none of your business, I'll be back in a couple of days."

He went to Louisiana fishing with some hard drinking cajun buddies.

 

[Morgan3820]

I have come to the conclusion, sadly, that my main hobbies hunting/shooting and flying are pretty much doomed in the long run. It would be great to think there will be a long term future for these things but at this point I am just hoping to preserve them until I am unable to do them anymore in 20 to 30 years (tops). This is admittedly a bit selfish but neither of my kids are really interested and while it would be nice to think I am fighting for the future generations ability to enjoy these things I just don't see it happening unless there is some sort of major change in this country.

My 15 yr old daughter is chomping at the bit, well maybe not chomping but eager and loves to fly with her Dad. But I agree that she maybe the exception.

 

[Henning]

The only thing boats require is dollars. no specific training needed, up to a certian tonnage

Yes, that's correct Heck, as long as you foot the entire bill, the tonnage restriction is Insurance Industry applied, not Government. In fact, USCG has issued me vessel specific Letter of Authorities for vessels above my tonnage grade on insurance company approval and company request. They started to do this I the oilfield when the big deep water boats came into play and the Unlimited Masters started crashing into drilling rigs.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Hangar waiting list woes within metropolitan areas have already been established to not be reflections of aggregate demand. The metropolitan fields know there's no profit to expand capacity and the overall volume is low enough they can just tell the waiting list losers to suck it up. There's plenty of hangars in bum fook, people just don't want to live there or drive 3 hours to their airplanes.

Kind of curious why you think there is an abundance of hangars in the boondocks? There are ZERO hangars available in MY bumfook. I live and work in a VERY remote area and I was on lists at every airport within 60 miles for three years before getting a fully enclosed hangar. One airport, the most desirable for me in the area, is building 12 hangars, but after over four years on their list, I am still higher than 35 on their list.

What is your reason for thinking there are hangars available in rural areas? Just curious.

 

[RalphInCA]

Whatever happened to the FAAs efforts to ensure hangars are being used for aviation purposes?

I know that at my home airport there are several hangars with no airplanes - but are full of cars, and other things.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Whatever happened to the FAAs efforts to ensure hangars are being used for aviation purposes?

I know that at my home airport there are several hangars with no airplanes - but are full of cars, and other things.

They included project airplanes in their gotta go list and pizzed everyone off.

 

[Henning]

Whatever happened to the FAAs efforts to ensure hangars are being used for aviation purposes?

I know that at my home airport there are several hangars with no airplanes - but are full of cars, and other things.

Yeah, Jeannie was complaining about the storage hangar issue on LGB, I told her to call the FAA. What I don't understand is why they tore down those big assembly Hangars. Those could have served as community hangars that could have housed every GA plane on the field. They were a great GA opportunity. For an FBO and ramp all under one roof.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

It's next to nothing compared to 25 years ago. Most of the activity I see left is foreign student training.

The 25-30 years ago part is very true. Activity around the small airports I go to is nothing compared to some years back. The people that fly today, for the most part, are flying 50-60 year old aircraft and not flying them very much. A lot of it is jobs! Well paying jobs at east coast G.M. Plants, Beth Steel , textile mills, etc. are gone and are not coming back. Automation and cheap overseas labor have finished most of them off. American corporations used to care about their workers wages as the serfs bought most of their products right here at home. Today they sell globally, they could care less about the American worker. They get child labor overseas for peanuts.

 

[KaiGywer]

Hell, I'm offering FREE night certificates to anyone who passes a checkride. We've had TWO (2) takers in three months. Pathetic.

Never heard of your hotel until right now. I am about to take my checkride and planning an IFR adventure for instrument training following that...your offer is very tempting for a stop on my tour.

We got plenty of retentive pilots around here....we could use some of the less uptight kind.

 

[Henning]

The 25-30 years ago part is very true. Activity around the small airports I go to is nothing compared to some years back. The people that fly today, for the most part, are flying 50-60 year old aircraft and not flying them very much. A lot of it is jobs! Well paying jobs at east coast G.M. Plants, Beth Steel , textile mills, etc. are gone and are not coming back. Automation and cheap overseas labor have finished most of them off. American corporations used to care about their workers wages as the serfs bought most of their products right here at home. Today they sell globally, they could care less about the American worker. They get child labor overseas for peanuts.

That s all our own fault, we failed to look to the future and put ourselves in a place to take advantage. We spent all our money and effort trying to preserve the past.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Please henning, just the crumbs of your wisdom! please explain why "it's our fault"! ( aside from greed and stupidity. )