A320 Rotation Technique for Takeoff

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ted6357

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Hi all, any A320 drivers here to answer the below question?

I note the A320 with landing gear compressed, the tail contacts the runway at 11.7 degrees. In the below two videos, the rotation rate seems quite fast and before the radio altimeter reads even 10 feet AGL, the pitch is already past 11.7 degrees. Is this an Airbus PFD thing? Boeing PFDs tends to register better radio altitude it seems to me.

Also, way past 11.7 degrees, the aircraft still seems very close to the ground. Arn't the pilots aware of a possible tailstrike?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3TJMro_NzA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECV3IBkzZLc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECV3IBkzZLc
 
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As long as we are at it, I've done a TON of planespotting at KLAS and the Airbus (A319/320) seem to land with a much higher nose-up attitude than say a 737.

Is this an illusion, or truth?
 
Looks normal to me, but it's been a while since I've flown the A320 series.

That rotation in the video is definitely faster than the triple, but not necessarily wrong for the type. The triple normally lifts off around 7deg or so, depending on conditions. Tail strike territory is north of 12deg on takeoff.

I remember reading that the 757-200 tail clears the runway by 13" on a normal takeoff. Never had a tail strike :)
 
ted6357 said:
Hi all, any A320 drivers here to answer the below question?

I note the A320 with landing gear compressed, the tail contacts the runway at 11.7 degrees. In the below two videos, the rotation rate seems quite fast and before the radio altimeter reads even 10 feet AGL, the pitch is already past 11.7 degrees. Is this an Airbus PFD thing? Boeing PFDs tends to register better radio altitude it seems to me.

Also, way past 11.7 degrees, the aircraft still seems very close to the ground. Arn't the pilots aware of a possible tailstrike?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3TJMro_NzA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECV3IBkzZLc
Click to expand...

The A319/320 rotate like any other jet, about 2 degrees per second. Rotating a Vr, at approx. 7-8 degrees the main gear come off of the ground and the rotation continues to approx 15 degrees.

fiveoboy01 said:
As long as we are at it, I've done a TON of planespotting at KLAS and the Airbus (A319/320) seem to land with a much higher nose-up attitude than say a 737.

Is this an illusion, or truth?
Click to expand...

Actually they are about the same.
 
Rex Kramer said:
I remember reading that the 757-200 tail clears the runway by 13" on a normal takeoff. Never had a tail strike :)
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That's about right but the -300 is only 9.4" so we definitely think about strikes on takeoff in that.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Not A320, but talking with a 787 buddy this week, he pointed out that the only noticeable cockpit difference between the 787-8 and 787-9 is that a portion of the flap lever is graduated in single degree increments in the -9 cockpit because you have to set the flaps that accurately to avoid a departure tailstrike at different weight and balance numbers. You set takeoff flaps to what the book/aircraft says for the weight and balance given and its in one degree increments in the -9.

He also mentioned that a 777 has a tailstrike sensor and annunciation in the cockpit. Doing things wrong and illuminating it is an "oh ****" moment and will ruin your whole day.

Other fun trivia was that the 78's wing bends 21' upward at rotation. About two thirds of my entire wingspan in the 182.

Big flying machines sure are nifty.
 
denverpilot said:
Not A320, but talking with a 787 buddy this week, he pointed out that the only noticeable cockpit difference between the 787-8 and 787-9 is that a portion of the flap lever is graduated in single degree increments in the -9 cockpit because you have to set the flaps that accurately to avoid a departure tailstrike at different weight and balance numbers. You set takeoff flaps to what the book/aircraft says for the weight and balance given and its in one degree increments in the -9.

He also mentioned that a 777 has a tailstrike sensor and annunciation in the cockpit. Doing things wrong and illuminating it is an "oh ****" moment and will ruin your whole day.

Other fun trivia was that the 78's wing bends 21' upward at rotation. About two thirds of my entire wingspan in the 182.

Big flying machines sure are nifty.
Click to expand...


I'm sure you meant 21"?
 
Its more than 21 inches. Not sure I buy 21 feet, but it is a bunch.
 
What about throttling back on the climbout after takeoff in A320's? It's happened twice and it scared the crap out of me because I'd never felt deceleration on the takeoff climb. I didn't know what on earth we would slow down for so suddenly.
 
Probably gaining altitude as quickly as possible for noise abatement or something else and throttling back to a less aggressive climb once at a certain altitude.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Apparently 25' during Boeing's wing flex testing.
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I believe that. I watched one of the documentaries where they were flexing wings until they snapped during testing. But during normal flight? I'm sure they flex, but like Greg mentioned...21'?
 
overdrive148 said:
What about throttling back on the climbout after takeoff in A320's? It's happened twice and it scared the crap out of me because I'd never felt deceleration on the takeoff climb. I didn't know what on earth we would slow down for so suddenly.
Click to expand...
Try riding in an airliner departing KSNA (John Wayne/Orange County Airport, CA). That noise abatement departure feels very wrong to any pilot who doesn't know what's going on, and to many who do.

Time lapse photo of the departure:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Southwest-Airlines/Boeing-737-7H4/2558403/L
 
overdrive148 said:
What about throttling back on the climbout after takeoff in A320's? It's happened twice and it scared the crap out of me because I'd never felt deceleration on the takeoff climb. I didn't know what on earth we would slow down for so suddenly.
Click to expand...

What you probably felt was the climb reduction from TOGA to Climb versus FLEX to Climb power.

At a max thrust TO (TOGA) the reduction to climb power is appreciable. From FLEX (reduced power) to climb power is less noticeable.

Most take offs are from FLEX power.
 
Back to the OP's thread....

So R+W, At 7-8 degrees when the A320 mains lift off the ground on rotation for takeoff, as folks continue the rotation to 15 degrees, in their sometimes rapid rotation manner, there is no chance that the tail can still kiss the ground at 11.7 degrees?
 
denverpilot said:
Not A320, but talking with a 787 buddy this week, he pointed out that the only noticeable cockpit difference between the 787-8 and 787-9 is that a portion of the flap lever is graduated in single degree increments in the -9 cockpit because you have to set the flaps that accurately to avoid a departure tailstrike at different weight and balance numbers. You set takeoff flaps to what the book/aircraft says for the weight and balance given and its in one degree increments in the -9.

He also mentioned that a 777 has a tailstrike sensor and annunciation in the cockpit. Doing things wrong and illuminating it is an "oh ****" moment and will ruin your whole day.

Other fun trivia was that the 78's wing bends 21' upward at rotation. About two thirds of my entire wingspan in the 182.

Big flying machines sure are nifty.
Click to expand...


Yeah, I watch the wing flex up on takeoff in most planes where I have that view. I though a heavy 747 was a big mover until I got in a 787, holy cow that sucker flexes up.:lol:
 
RotorAndWing said:
What you probably felt was the climb reduction from TOGA to Climb versus FLEX to Climb power.

At a max thrust TO (TOGA) the reduction to climb power is appreciable. From FLEX (reduced power) to climb power is less noticeable.

Most take offs are from FLEX power.
Click to expand...

I've noticed this coming out of Midway - max power takeoff, then a reduction in thrust probably somewhere between 800 and 1000 AGL.

I suspect that whenever possible the airlines used reduced takeoff (and sometimes reduced climb too) for fuel and maintenance savings, but some runways are too short for that.
 
Pilawt said:
Try riding in an airliner departing KSNA (John Wayne/Orange County Airport, CA). That noise abatement departure feels very wrong to any pilot who doesn't know what's going on, and to many who do.

Time lapse photo of the departure:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Southwest-Airlines/Boeing-737-7H4/2558403/L
Click to expand...

Yep, that was always an interesting departure, it was not unusual to have people screaming in fear when they did a Vx climb then chopped the engines and pushed over so everyone got light in their seat.:lol: I heard they quit that though.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
That would be fun!

Is it a Vx takeoff or is some extra airspeed built up before the climbout?
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Vx, the thing was to get above a certain altitude before getting over Newport Harbor. The deck angle on an airliner at Vx is impressive indeed.
 
I departed ATL in a 737 day after thanksgiving and the climbout seemed very steep to me, at least compared to prior flights. Easily 1000+ AGL before the end of the runway. No idea if it was true Vx or not, but it was pretty sweet especially sitting in row 2 with the buzzsaw sounds emanating from the CFMs.
 
warthog1984 said:
Max performance climb. Either Vy or Vx, but probably Vx. They've changed it to pull the throttles after pushover but it still feels weird.
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I've never seen Vx or Vy in a transport jet :dunno:

We climb out V2+10 until 1000' AFE.

If it's a noise abatement departure, at 1000' AFE we continue the climb to 3000' AFE at V2+10, then accelerate and clean up.
 
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Henning said:
Vx, the thing was to get above a certain altitude before getting over Newport Harbor. The deck angle on an airliner at Vx is impressive indeed.
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Really?:rolleyes2:

Since transports don't alter their takeoff profile (V2+10) after rotation to 1000' AFE, how do you explain this?
 
RotorAndWing said:
I've never seen Vx or Vy in a transport jet :dunno:

We climb out V2+10 until 1000' AFE.
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John Wayne has/had a very unique departure procedure I have seen duplicated nowhere else. Serious, I flew out of there commercially every 2 weeks for 2 years and I don't think there was one flight that didn't have several people scream in terror. The departure path is directly over the most expensive neighborhood in the country where the cheapest house is around $2MM, not a ghetto, so it's okay to scare the crap out of everyone.
 
Henning said:
John Wayne has/had a very unique departure procedure I have seen duplicated nowhere else. Serious, I flew out of there commercially every 2 weeks for 2 years and I don't think there was one flight that didn't have several people scream in terror. The departure path is directly over the most expensive neighborhood in the country where the cheapest house is around $2MM, not a ghetto, so it's okay to scare the crap out of everyone.
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Whatever. I've flown out of John Wayne, we just used close in Departure Procedures like anywhere else, it's still V2+10, then reduce thrust and hold V2+10 to 3000' AFE.
 
ted6357 said:
Back to the OP's thread....

So R+W, At 7-8 degrees when the A320 mains lift off the ground on rotation for takeoff, as folks continue the rotation to 15 degrees, in their sometimes rapid rotation manner, there is no chance that the tail can still kiss the ground at 11.7 degrees?
Click to expand...

Yes, if you yank back hard enough one could smack the tail. I always used the tried and true 2 degrees per second, never failed me in any jet.
 
Henning said:
John Wayne has/had a very unique departure procedure I have seen duplicated nowhere else. Serious, I flew out of there commercially every 2 weeks for 2 years and I don't think there was one flight that didn't have several people scream in terror. The departure path is directly over the most expensive neighborhood in the country where the cheapest house is around $2MM, not a ghetto, so it's okay to scare the crap out of everyone.
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You'll find it at Palm Beach for departures to the East as well. Both procedures are Real Estate driven. If you have enough money you can get an airliner full of people to do something less safe !
 
Art VanDelay said:
You'll find it at Palm Beach for departures to the East as well. Both procedures are Real Estate driven. If you have enough money you can get an airliner full of people to do something less safe !
Click to expand...

Most places with noise abatement problems are using the Close In Procedure, which is nothing more that a V2+10 climb to 3000' AFE.
 
Interesting, thanks!

The flight was out of Istanbul headed to CDG back in October. I knew there was basically nowhere to land safely if we really did just lose power that soon after takeoff and it was the first time I've been legitimately scared on an airliner since it was matched with a lightening in the seat feeling (gravity, not biological). Followed by the worst turbulence experience as well. I think it was disjoint though - we didn't hit turbulence until maybe 10-15 minutes after that point. We also didn't climb higher to get out of it, cruised in the cloud layer for at least 30 minutes.
 
overdrive148 said:
The flight was out of Istanbul headed to CDG back in October. I knew there was basically nowhere to land safely if we really did just lose power that soon after takeoff and it was the first time I've been legitimately scared on an airliner since it was matched with a lightening in the seat feeling (gravity, not biological).
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That's a bit confusing. The Airbus will fly just fine on one engine. :dunno:


overdrive148 said:
Followed by the worst turbulence experience as well. I think it was disjoint though - we didn't hit turbulence until maybe 10-15 minutes after that point. We also didn't climb higher to get out of it, cruised in the cloud layer for at least 30 minutes.
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Could have been conflicting traffic, turbulence reported at all altitudes, etc.
 
RotorAndWing said:
That's a bit confusing. The Airbus will fly just fine on one engine. :dunno:

Could have been conflicting traffic, turbulence reported at all altitudes, etc.
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Oh, I know, but I heard both engines throttle back and immediately thought the worst. I remember looking out the window and seeing nothing but city and knew after being in the place for a couple weeks that there was no comfortable place to land if we really did lose both. Not a knock against Airbus or any other manufacturer - I know air travel is incredibly safe and that there are redundancies built in to everything but the moment made me pretty spooked :yikes:
 
overdrive148 said:
Oh, I know, but I heard both engines throttle back and immediately thought the worst. I remember looking out the window and seeing nothing but city and knew after being in the place for a couple weeks that there was no comfortable place to land if we really did lose both. Not a knock against Airbus or any other manufacturer - I know air travel is incredibly safe and that there are redundancies built in to everything but the moment made me pretty spooked :yikes:
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What airline?
 
RotorAndWing said:
You had a good reason to scared. :rolleyes:
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I was pretty skeptical, hard landings to and from Istanbul (the one to Ankara was fine though). Ankara to IST was an A330. Do they have a bad reputation?

One of the guys I was working with said they were an awesome airline but I don't have any basis to go off except for my experience. The approach into IST from CDG had a lot of throttle jockeying. Normal for A320 or?
 
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