Slip to landing

[Aviator_Cew]

Here's the story I'm in a C-172 got a little distracted in the traffic pattern and found myself too high on final with 30° flaps. At this point I wanted to slip to lose altitude but was concerned about slipping with the 30° flaps and appropriate A/S. What I did was to approach at a steeper angle and because of long RW bled the A/S when I got down. Any comments about my 30°/slip concerns? Could I have even gone 40° flaps and keeping A/S in mind. All comments are welcome, I here to learn.

 

[CTLSi]

Here's the story I'm in a C-172 got a little distracted in the traffic pattern and found myself too high on final with 30° flaps. At this point I wanted to slip to lose altitude but was concerned about slipping with the 30° flaps and appropriate A/S. What I did was to approach at a steeper angle and because of long RW bled the A/S when I got down. Any comments about my 30°/slip concerns? Could I have even gone 40° flaps and keeping A/S in mind. All comments are welcome, I here to learn.

You can slip in any flap config.

Another way to get down is to pitch down and dive toward the runway, then roundout a little higher and pitch up reducing speed. You will use a little more runway, but can accomplish the same thing if you create the skill to do it this way.

(let's see how fast the 'experts' attack this idea)

 

[Henning]

You can slip with full flaps, question is do you have to. Rather than steepen the approach nose down, you can do the same nose up. Pull the throttle and pull the nose up until the stall horn is chirping, see what your rate of sink is, you'll be impressed, and you won't scare passengers. None the less, you should master slips. In the 172 with flaps 40 and a full on slip you may get an oscillation as dirty air from the wing hits the tail. This is a stable self correcting issue and is of no worry. You can slow a slip as slow as you want. When you reach the stall limit the low wing will lift, as that happens lift your foot off the rudder and push the nose down a bit.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

That last 40 degrees of flaps is almost all drag. I would have dumped full flaps and since you said it was a long runway, just accepted a slightly longer landing. I am more partial to the "pitch for airspeed power for altitude" technique on final. I would have had the power back at idle and maintained the recommended approach speed. You aren't covering as much ground as quick as opposed to the "dive and drive" technique. Nothing wrong with slipping but it does say to "avoid slips with flaps." You can get some elevator oscillation from the flaps going over the tail.

 

[RoscoeT]

Another way to get down is to pitch down and dive toward the runway, then roundout a little higher and pitch up reducing speed. You will use a little more runway, but can accomplish the same thing if you create the skill to do it this way.

The skill to dive at the runway?? Wow.

(let's see how fast the 'experts' attack this idea)

You seem very contemptuous toward those who actually have flying experience, ability, and knowledge. It must be nice to go through life immune to the knowledge and experience of others. It makes you the smartest person in the room in your own mind.

 

[frfly172]

I like to slip the 172 with 30 on the flaps and save 40 for the final flare to landing.

 

[Jaybird180]

You can slip in any flap config.

Another way to get down is to pitch down and dive toward the runway, then roundout a little higher and pitch up reducing speed. You will use a little more runway, but can accomplish the same thing if you create the skill to do it this way.

(let's see how fast the 'experts' attack this idea)

I wouldn't recommend this habit. Come around my neck of the woods are you're setting yourself up for a runaway airplane on landing.

I have never flown a flap 40 C-172 but I've heard there is ONE model, which at a certain airspeed range will experience an elevator oscillation in a slip. I've also heard that the corrective action is to reduce the slip and it's a non-event in either case.

I have no problem slipping mine, but I'd like more rudder though.

 

[txflyer]

Machete don't text or slip.

 

[flyingron]

I used to fly a 172N and once in my entire time of flying high speed approaches into IAD and the closing the throttle and dropping 10 degrees at 100 and then 40 at 85 and slipping hard to get down, ONCE, I got the oscillation. It was so benign that even though I was shouting "There it is! There it is!" to my wife, she didn't notice. Just about any disturbing of the situation (as mentioned just reducing a bit of rudder pressure) makes it stop.

 

[FastEddieB]

You can slip in any flap config.

In any plane?

Just curious, do you speak from experience?

In any case, the 1978 C172 POH suggests...

"Steep slips should be avoided with flap settings greater than 20°..." And then goes on to explain why.

Have you routinely slipped a C172 with more than 20° of flaps, and if so, how troublesome or unnerving did you find the elevator oscillations? I have, and did not really care for the way the yoke started jerking around in my hand, and avoided full flap slips in most high wing Cessna's going forward.

Again, interested in your experience here.

 

[poadeleted20]

You can slip with full flaps,

Absolutely true, but if you are currently at 30 and have 10 more available, I suggest going to 40 before you resort to slipping. As noted by others, the 172 manual advises that there is an oscillation which can develop in a slip with flaps extended, but it's not a big deal, it's easily corrected (kick out of the slip), and in 44 years of slipping 172's with flaps extended, it's never happened to me.

Rather than steepen the approach nose down, you can do the same nose up. Pull the throttle and pull the nose up until the stall horn is chirping

Please don't do that -- too easy to stall with insufficient altitude to recover. First flaps, then slip, and if that doesn't work, go around and set it up better.

 

[poadeleted20]

You can slip in any flap config.

Another way to get down is to pitch down and dive toward the runway, then roundout a little higher and pitch up reducing speed. You will use a little more runway, but can accomplish the same thing if you create the skill to do it this way.

This is a really bad idea. It may get you down to the runway sooner, but it will do so with a lot more speed so you float a lot farther, and it makes it much easier to get into a balloon or porpoise. For that reason, the FAA recommends against it in the Airplane Flying Handbook and other publications like the "On Landings" pamphlets. Failure to maintaining the desired approach speed is probably the leading cause of landing accidents, and landing accidents are #1 on the FAA's accident hit parade. Know the right speed for approach for your plane, set it and trim for it, and then maintain it on final using power and drag to control glide path, not pitch/speed.

(let's see how fast the 'experts' attack this idea)

If you knew that those with far more knowledge and experience than you (a newly licensed Private Pilot with no experience outside one LSA) would point out its flaws, why did you even post it in the first place?

 

[poadeleted20]

Again, interested in your experience here.

Private Pilot in July 2014, apparently all in a Flight Design CTLSi.

 

[N64543]

Dive toward the runway! Always try to land using minimum runway that way u will be comfortable putting your 172 down on a real short runway . Full flaps and 30 or 40 degrees and still high maybe u can slip it in but don't forget the option of going around. I fly out of a 2000 airport with trees and land my 172M with no more than 20 flaps because of potential for go around due to deer on runway. I think a lot of pilots get in trouble because of not wanting to go around, that dive toward the runway mentality may get u in trouble.

 

[Perezhr]

You can slip in any flap config.

Another way to get down is to pitch down and dive toward the runway, then roundout a little higher and pitch up reducing speed. You will use a little more runway, but can accomplish the same thing if you create the skill to do it this way.

(let's see how fast the 'experts' attack this idea)

You know, I was going to put him in the ignore list but stuff like this has real entertainment value. I literally could not stop laughing for a couple of minutes!!. My only concern would be that an inexperienced pilot may actually take his advice and DIVE FOR THE RUNWAY.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[brian]]

Wow.. um... anyway... (Sure glad Capt. Ron doesn't get frustrated and sticks around to help us newbies.)

Back to the OP - might consider why you are so high on final. Although the 172 isn't considered a high performance aircraft, you can get quite high on a cross country and then you have to figure out how to lose all that energy just to enter the pattern before overshooting the entire airport.

It takes time but before long you should be able to see when your are just too high and need to go around. To me, the 172 drops like a rock with 30* flaps. If practicing, I might consider a go-around if full flaps won't get it done. (If an engine out, S-Turns are an option as well.)

 

[OkieAviator]

Another way to get down is to pitch down and dive toward the runway, then roundout a little higher and pitch up reducing speed. You will use a little more runway, but can accomplish the same thing if you create the skill to do it this way.

(let's see how fast the 'experts' attack this idea)

I'm not expert but this was my method of landing on Computer Games/Flight Simulators before I started my lessons. I didn't realize it was bad to land a Cessna 172 at 110 knots.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

If you have more flaps, why not use them?

It's not really a slip until the rudder pedal hits the stop.

 

[RoscoeT]

You know, I was going to put him in the ignore list but stuff like this has real entertainment value.

Yep, but the fact that he never comments at all (either positively or negatively) on any of the responses to his posts tells me that he's a troll who gets a kick out of dropping his moronic drivel and then seeing what ensues. He never responds, he just keeps posting more impossibly stupid stuff.

So what do you think there, CTLSi? Zzzzz....crickets.

 

[James331]

In any plane?

Just curious, do you speak from experience?

In any case, the 1978 C172 POH suggests...

"Steep slips should be avoided with flap settings greater than 20°..." And then goes on to explain why.

Have you routinely slipped the C172 with more than 20° of flaps, and if so, how troublesome or unnerving did you find the elevator oscillations? I have, and did not really care for the way the yoke started jerking around in my hand, and avoided full flap slips in most high wing Cessna's going forward.

Again, interested in your experience here.

Dump all the flaps you got and slip the snot out of her if you have to.

I've slipped with 40 degree flap in the older 172s, and full 30 in the newer 172SPs, I've slipped full flaps in a U206, C182, C207, C208B, C120, C152, all with full flaps and I slip aggressively, and those are just the Cessnas, I have yet to fly a plane which I haven't slipped.

As far a the yoke "jerking" I'm not sure how anemic you may be, but it's not even that noticeable IMO, far from anything I would consider a concern.

A slip is a tool that, given enough flight hours, WILL save your bacon at some point. Anyone fearful of slipping, or against slipping needs to reassess.

 

[FastEddieB]

As far a the yoke "jerking" I'm not sure how anemic you may be, but it's not even that noticeable IMO, far from anything I would consider a concern.

Not especially anemic that I know of*.

And I routinely slip on nearly every approach. Got used to it in a flapless Citabria 7ECA I owned and love slipping to fine tune final approaches, which I nearly always do with full flaps.

But what I felt in that 172 was a buffeting in the yoke that was pronounced enough to give me a little shot of adrenaline at the time. That buffeting may be perfectly benign, but unexpected feedback from flight controls gets my attention. And so I tried to avoid maximum effort slips with full flaps in high wing Cessnas.

That's all.


*And us it just me, or was that unnecessarily confrontational?

 

[Jim Logajan]

Another way to get down is to pitch down and dive toward the runway, then roundout a little higher and pitch up reducing speed. You will use a little more runway, but can accomplish the same thing if you create the skill to do it this way.

(let's see how fast the 'experts' attack this idea)

The skill to dive at the runway?? Wow.

Dive toward the runway! Always try to land using minimum runway that way u will be comfortable putting your 172 down on a real short runway . Full flaps and 30 or 40 degrees and still high maybe u can slip it in but don't forget the option of going around. I fly out of a 2000 airport with trees and land my 172M with no more than 20 flaps because of potential for go around due to deer on runway. I think a lot of pilots get in trouble because of not wanting to go around, that dive toward the runway mentality may get u in trouble.

Leighton Collins, founder of Air Facts magazine (also contributed a chapter to Langewiesche's book Stick and Rudder,) might qualify as one possible sage on the subject of "diving for the runway" when high. In sum: Do it right away or don't bother. Here's his full opinion, quoting from his book Takeoffs and Landings:

"And, it's heresy, for sure, but even in a clean airplane, nosing down rather steeply to get rid of clearly excessive altitudes works if its is done soon enough. Even a clean airplane, once the excess altitude is gotten rid of in this manner, will slow rather quickly back to proper approach speed if held nose level, power off. I've told as many new pilots as anyone has, "Don't ever dive at the airport," and that's still a valid stock admonition close in. But if you get at it soon enough, it's something else again. I learned this, eyebrows up, mouth shut, once with an associate, Ken Lester, who'd wound up World War II as a B-29 instructor. I was checking him out in my Culver Cadet, which had no flaps and little extra drag with its two small landing-gear legs down.

On his first approach, across Esso's mile-square refinery at Linden, New Jersey, Ken hadn't glided more than a few seconds on final, power off and at the proper approach speed, when he saw he was in trouble. He put the nose way down, the speed went way up, he leveled off at just the right distance out, and we crossed the fence with exactly the right airspeed and altitude for a normal short landing. But if it isn't done soon enough, forget it. And never on a license test or biennial review. This one's for when nobody is looking and you don't want to have to go around. And when it's warm enough that the engine won't suffer thermal shock in descent."
​

 

[brian]]

And the NTSB report starts something like this: Witness identified the accident aircraft seemingly falling from the sky when suddenly the wings came off ... (Another option is the aircraft stalls and crashes. Either way - flaming wreckage.)

edit: Stick and rudder - good book by the way. Talks about all the outer edge of the envelope things you can do with a good acrobatic (or conceptual) aircraft.

 

[slinger]

In any plane?

Just curious, do you speak from experience?

In any case, the 1978 C172 POH suggests...

"Steep slips should be avoided with flap settings greater than 20°..." And then goes on to explain why.

Have you routinely slipped a C172 with more than 20° of flaps, and if so, how troublesome or unnerving did you find the elevator oscillations? I have, and did not really care for the way the yoke started jerking around in my hand, and avoided full flap slips in most high wing Cessna's going forward.

Again, interested in your experience here.

I routinely used flaps 40....hey!! where the little degree thingee on the keyboard?
I owned a 172N for nineteen years and not once did the yoke try to jerk off in my hand.
I'm pretty old and don't have much adrenaline left, however.

 

[James331]

Not especially anemic that I know of*.

And I routinely slip on nearly every approach. Got used to it in a flapless Citabria 7ECA I owned and love slipping to fine tune final approaches, which I nearly always do with full flaps.

But what I felt in that 172 was a buffeting in the yoke that was pronounced enough to give me a little shot of adrenaline at the time. That buffeting may be perfectly benign, but unexpected feedback from flight controls gets my attention. And so I tried to avoid maximum effort slips with full flaps in high wing Cessnas.

That's all.


*And us it just me, or was that unnecessarily confrontational?

Didn't mean to come off as confrontational, I have delt with students who were taught to never slip with full flaps because of that dumb warning, its dangerous to think that it's a limitation.

I had a engine failure once and had to not been for a heavy full flap slip I would have torn some fabric and bent some metal.

As for the dive to the airport, sure if you know what you're doing, I'm not a fan of than pulling up to bleed speed (that a screw up), a decel turn is ok.

For most folks a slip is a way better option.

 

[bnt83]

40 degrees are a great tool that must be used carefully. If your flying a heavy loaded airplane or on a really hot day or and/or up high , 30 or less and slipping is much safer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQFXHEmmHUM

 

[Dead Stick]

Slips with full flaps? Sometimes instead of resorting to "heroic measures" to salvage an approach it's just smart to go around and get properly set up. I can envision the scenario where you've lost an engine and you're trying to put it into a tight spot, but other than that, I can't think of a single instance where, under normal conditions, it would be necessary to slip with flaps. If you find yourself needing to do that it's probably time to grab a CFI and go knock off some rust.

 

[CTLSi]

As I said in the dive post, the 'experts' would not be able to resist chirping in...the sarcasm is intentional.

The truth is more direct.

On landings, dragging in is criticized by some, and extolled by others. Slipping rarely used by some, even feared, and used routinely by others (this is one of the maneuvers required during a checkride). Pitch down loses altitude also, and gains speed...there is nothing wrong with working the nose to lose the speed.

In the end, if the landing cannot be made using whatever technique, dragging, slipping, diving, going to big flaps, or setting up in a perfect extended approach at the right altitude, correct speed and with standard flaps then the 'go around' is supposed to be the first resort.

Practicing all kinds of landings (short final, short field, slow speed, high speed, cross wind, dead stick, and even tail wind) is not just fun, it's smart.

(now watch the usual suspects get hyped over the tail wind landing).

 

[bnt83]

Slips with full flaps? Sometimes instead of resorting to "heroic measures" to salvage an approach it's just smart to go around and get properly set up. I can envision the scenario where you've lost an engine and you're trying to put it into a tight spot, but other than that, I can't think of a single instance where, under normal conditions, it would be necessary to slip with flaps. If you find yourself needing to do that it's probably time to grab a CFI and go knock off some rust.

Oh IDK, its always fun just to play with it. If I was deadstick and didn't want to turn away from my intended landing site I'd add full flaps, slip the **** out of it or even shallow S turns with full flaps.

 

[Clark1961]

As I said in the dive post, the 'experts' would not be able to resist chirping in...the sarcasm is intentional.

The truth is more direct.

On landings, dragging in is criticized by some, and extolled by others. Slipping rarely used by some, even feared, and used routinely by others (this is one of the maneuvers required during a checkride). Pitch down loses altitude also, and gains speed...there is nothing wrong with working the nose to lose the speed.

In the end, if the landing cannot be made using whatever technique, dragging, slipping, diving, going to big flaps, or setting up in a perfect extended approach at the right altitude, correct speed and with standard flaps then the 'go around' is supposed to be the first resort. But practicing all kinds of landings is not just fun, it's smart.

...and this post outs you as a total troll which is prohibited by POA's rules.

It's prohibited by the rules because it destroys the environment of friendly information exchange. Either stop being a troll or go away, your choice.

 

[Dead Stick]

Oh IDK, its always fun just to play with it. If I was deadstick and didn't want to turn away from my intended landing site I'd add full flaps, slip the **** out of it or even shallow S turns with full flaps.

Did you even read what I posted?

 

[bullwinkle]

As I said in the dive post, the 'experts' would not be able to resist chirping in...the sarcasm is intentional.

Why do you put quotes around the word experts? Some of the people on this board are *actual* aviation experts. You might learn something from listening to them, if you could suspend your narcissism for a minute.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

You might learn something from listening to them, if you could suspend your narcissism for a minute.

Or permanently.

 

[somorris]

Hi Aviator Cew. Welcome to the Blue Board.

I used to own a C-172G (1966). I slipped it with full flaps (40 degrees) until I read in the POH I wasn't supposed to be doing that. I thought it was because the relative wind on the flaps during an aggressive slip might damage the flap tracks, so I quit. I never experienced the oscillation. I fly a C-150 now and slip it with full flaps if I need to. You can also do S turns to help when you are high. Fly with your CFI and let him/her show you how before you try it yourself, or go up to altitude and try it.

 

[RoscoeT]

I'm pretty anti moderation in general, but for once a mod kill seems overdue. That's saying a lot.

 

[CTLSi]

Why do you put quotes around the word experts? Some of the people on this board are *actual* aviation experts. You might learn something from listening to them, if you could suspend your narcissism for a minute.

I learn from people when they offer information that is factual, practical, and applicable.

The 'self described' experts on these boards that offer their personal opinions, bigotry, ignorance and patronizing insults as a substitute for aviation knowledge are both frauds, and destructive.

I can tell the difference, can you?

 

[RoscoeT]

He responds! ...and shows an even more disturbing glimpse into his warped world. He is the righteous island floating in a sea of idiots.

 

[brian]]

One aircraft I did a lot of full flap slips in was the da20. That is a pretty slick little trainer. The first notch of flaps doesn't add any drag that I could tell. Full flaps might have added some drag, but not much. (Chop the power abeam the numbers and you can just about do a full pattern.)

Anyway, slips in the da20 and full flaps are fun never really felt the need to slip a 172 though. Same for the bonanza .. Lots of drag with full flaps...

 

[DFH65]

I flew a C172 can't remember if it was the '61 or '69 that was placarded with slips with flaps extended are prohibited.

 

[RoscoeT]

I'm glad we have another slipping with flaps thread. We need more of those in the world.