Does this picture show corrosion/pitting in a cylinder?

May I ask how many here who do not agree with Mr. Mike Bush have watched his video's to understand where he is coming from.

Miles concerns with removing jugs have to do with spinning main bearings from loosing up the jugs.

If you have never watched his video's here is one on cylinders, called all about cylinders.

http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1204537102001

Tony
 
But you don't really 'loosen the bearings' as they don't loosen or tighten, they are just held captive in a fixed, non adjustable position with spinning being prevented by tabs stamped into the bearing seated in notches machined into the case or rods as the situation may be. Since you never undo all the case bolts when doing just cylinders, there is never a chance to displace the bearings out of position to get them to spin, and when all the bolts are retorqued all will be in place perfectly fine.

I don't have the bandwidth to watch the video, but if I understand what you are saying, then no, I don't agree with Mike Busch's position on this. I have pulled many cylinders to clean and service valve issues before they burned, never had an issue. Sometimes getting an iron ring to reseat on chrome cylinders takes a few hours, but if you give them a scuff with some 220 they seat back up eventually.
 
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Henning said:
But you don't really 'loosen the bearings' as they don't loosen or tighten, they are just held captive in a fixed, non adjustable position with spinning being prevented by tabs stamped into the bearing seated in notches machined into the case or rods as the situation may be. Since you never undo all the case bolts when doing just cylinders, there is never a chance to displace the bearings out of position to get them to spin, and when all the bolts are retorqued all will be in place perfectly fine.

I don't have the bandwidth to watch the video, but if I understand what you are saying, then no, I don't agree with Mike Busch's position on this. I have pulled many cylinders to clean and service valve issues before they burned, never had an issue. Sometimes getting an iron ring to reseat on chrome cylinders takes a few hours, but if you give them a scuff with some 220 they seat back up eventually.
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Well until you hear his side of the story kinda hard to knock him, and taking little pieces of what he says from people like myself just does not do him justice.

But he says that there are through bolts that hold the case tight. By loosening these through bolts you loosen the case halves and a bearing could spin. He also talks about re-torque of the cylinder and how most do not get it correct.

But again judging what he has to say on subject like this without listening to what he has to say himself, is kinda unfair...Do you not agree.

Watch his video's then report back what you think. Your word will carry more weight then judging him on what others tell you he says.

Tony
 
Near Dallas Love airport. So far I've gotten 2 names but I'll take more.

Henning said:
I think that's a wise plan. Where in TX? There are many people on this board from all over TX that can help steer you at someone good.
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1600vw said:
Well until you hear his side of the story kinda hard to knock him, and taking little pieces of what he says from people like myself just does not do him justice.

But he says that there are through bolts that hold the case tight. By loosening these through bolts you loosen the case halves and a bearing could spin. He also talks about re-torque of the cylinder and how most do not get it correct.

But again judging what he has to say on subject like this without listening to what he has to say himself, is kinda unfair...Do you not agree.

Watch his video's then report back what you think. Your word will carry more weight then judging him on what others tell you he says.

Tony
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As I said, I do not accept his premiss. As a person who has spun a fair score of bearing in his life, I understand exactly how it happens, and his concern isn't one of them. You spin a bearing by either overheat from lack of oil or prolonged lack of coolant, or you stretch the bolts and form a gap in the bore mating surfaces, that's it.
 
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Henning said:
As I said, I do not accept his premiss. As a person who has spun a fair score of bearing in his life, I understand exactly how it happens, and his concern isn't one of them. You spin a bearing by either overheat from lack of oil or prolonged lack of coolant, or you stretch the bolts and form a gap in the bore mating surfaces, that's it.
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What about the mechanic who does not torque correctly. You forgot about that type of spun bearing. But I guess no one ever does this. Everyone torques every bolt 100% to factory specs.

Even if I believe I know it all, I am willing to listen to what others have to say. Just maybe I do not know what I think I know.

When you remove a part from anything, do you throw out any paper work that comes with said New part or do you look at said paper work thinking just maybe something has changed and this may not be as simple as taking this out of the box and installing.

I bet with your attitude this paper work never leaves the box. Why should it.

One of the reasons Mike gives for this happening after jug removal is the bearing was moved or spun just enough in the bore as to miss align the oil hole in the bearing and block and the bearing spins from lack of oil.

But you will never know any of this because you have not listen to the man himself you just want to knock what he has to say from so called " hear say "

Tony
 
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HAS I'll take a look at this video thanks but one question before I do...

So would what should an owner or potential buyer do if they discover corrosion in their cylinders if removing them for inspection and repair/replace risks bearing shifts? Would the only acceptable solution be run the engine till a full overhaul is needed?


1600vw said:
May I ask how many here who do not agree with Mr. Mike Bush have watched his video's to understand where he is coming from.

Miles concerns with removing jugs have to do with spinning main bearings from loosing up the jugs.

If you have never watched his video's here is one on cylinders, called all about cylinders.

http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1204537102001

Tony
Click to expand...
 
Henning said:
As I said, I do not accept his premiss. As a person who has spun a fair score of bearing in his life, I understand exactly how it happens, and his concern isn't one of them. You spin a bearing by either overheat from lack of oil or prolonged lack of coolant, or you stretch the bolts and form a gap in the bore mating surfaces, that's it.
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The long studs that go through the bearing saddles also hold one side of a cylinder flange. If the case spreads apart a bit when the cylinder is removed, the bearing can rotate just a bit and then bind once the cylinders are back on. The antirotation tabs on the bearing shells do it. Been there, done that, had the hassle. The prop gets stiff. If one removes the cylinders, the prop should be tied so it can't move.

A good case won't let that happen. The bearings are snug enough. But an old case might have bearing saddles that should have been decked and rebored at the last overhaul.

Dan
 
1600vw said:
What about the mechanic who does not torque correctly. You forgot about that type of spun bearing. But I guess no one ever does this. Everyone torques every bolt 100% to factory specs.

Even if I believe I know it all, I am willing to listen to what others have to say. Just maybe I do not know what I think I know.

When you remove a part from anything, do you throw out any paper work that comes with said New part or do you look at said paper work thinking just maybe something has changed and this may not be as simple as taking this out of the box and installing.

I bet with your attitude this paper work never leaves the box. Why should it.

One of the reasons Mike gives for this happening after jug removal is the bearing was moved or spun just enough in the bore as to miss align the oil hole in the bearing and block and the bearing spins from lack of oil.

But you will never know any of this because you have not listen to the man himself you just want to knock what he has to say from so called " hear say "

Tony
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If you can't trust your mechanic to torque the bolts right, you shouldn't use them. I'm always willing to listen to what someone has to say, I don't have to agree with them when their argument doesn't hold water. Cylinders get pulled off planes every day for replacement, how many spun bearings are you hearing about.:dunno:

Just because a dude is making his living telling people who don't know better how something works, that does not make them correct, that makes them a good salesman.
 
Dan Thomas said:
The long studs that go through the bearing saddles also hold one side of a cylinder flange. If the case spreads apart a bit when the cylinder is removed, the bearing can rotate just a bit and then bind once the cylinders are back on. The antirotation tabs on the bearing shells do it. Been there, done that, had the hassle. The prop gets stiff. If one removes the cylinders, the prop should be tied so it can't move.

A good case won't let that happen. The bearings are snug enough. But an old case might have bearing saddles that should have been decked and rebored at the last overhaul.

Dan
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They are not the only bolts that hold it together #1 what about all those bolts around the case, you think the line bore is going to spring open with those tight?:dunno: #2 if a gap would form,main bore bearings are not prone to snap out of their positions, typically I have to take a hammer and brass drift to get it to pop up, then I have to spin it a ways before I can get it out of the seat. Should somehow the bearings shift slightly in the bore (which they can't without pulling the cases substantially apart), when tightening back together, they will slip back into position by design.

I'm done with this, I'm arguing with people who obviously have never had an engine apart in their hands and assembled it, bearings and all. If you ever assembled one of these engines, you would understand why this is not a real issue. The fact that aircraft engines get cylinders swapped right and left while spun main bearings are pretty much unheard of backs my position much more so than Mike Busch's position. Go ahead and look through the Engine Overhaul manual, and you tell me how pulling a jug is going to allow the bearing to spin.:dunno:

I'm not sure why Busch is selling this position, but it's dead wrong.
 
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Guys I'm not trying to create an argument here I'm just researching/verifying what I was told by SAVVY because it didn't sound right to me.

My local A&P finally had time to look at the oil analysis & borescope picture supplied by the SAVVY A&P and he echoes the comments I've been getting here and from others I've been asking. Basically he said for starters that borescope image is VERY poor quality to begin with, at best he sees what appears to be normal corrosion (the type that wears w/ use) and given that compressions were good and results of last 3 spektographic oil analysis he sees no problems as all measurements are normal and oil sample and filter showed no signs of metals, carbon, and oil was clear. He said if seller is still willing to have 1 cylinder pulled that would be the only way to really tell and if he's willing to do that then I should take him up on it. He did say that no more than 2 cylinders should be taken out at a time.

So like I said at this stage I've lost trust & confidence in SAVVY so I'm working on getting a second opinion by paying for another pre-buy from a different A&P. Too many inconsistencies in what SAVVY has said to me for me to continue to trust me. They've flipped flopped their arguments too many times.
 
Henning said:
I'm done with this, I'm arguing with people who obviously have never had an engine apart in their hands and assembled it, bearings and all. If you ever assembled one of these engines, you would understand why this is not a real issue. The fact that aircraft engines get cylinders swapped right and left while spun main bearings are pretty much unheard of backs my position much more so than Mike Busch's position. Go ahead and look through the Engine Overhaul manual, and you tell me how pulling a jug is going to allow the bearing to spin.:dunno:
Click to expand...

I've had engines apart. Cases and all. I'm a mechanic, after all. And I had the bearings in a case shift when the jugs were off. Others have also had it happen, and an engine shop told me it wasn't common but does happen.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
I've had engines apart. Cases and all. I'm a mechanic, after all. And I had the bearings in a case shift when the jugs were off. Others have also had it happen, and an engine shop told me it wasn't common but does happen.

Dan
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How? How do the bearings stay out of place when the bolts get torqued without squeezing the bearing into the crank hard enough you can't turn it by hand?:dunno: Where do the tabs go?
 
FINALLY after a lot of polite but persistent pushing & pulling I got a straight answer from SAVVY. So turns out that the squawk lists (excluding engine) is not a problem (although Mike said it was when he was at his peak frustration and lashed out at me) also turns out that Mike B. statement saying the seller is misrepresenting the plane also has no merit and seems to have been driven by Mike's temper vs. fact. Ok glad we got that out of the way...

The only reason why they say I should walk is they believe their hired A&P's evaluation that there is heavy corrosion in all cylinders and would not doubt his assessment. And the only proper thing to do is to pull 3 or 4 cylinders to inspect BUT they would only trust the SAVVY A&P to pull and re-install the cylinders. No one else because the risk of screwing up the job and having bearings shift due to improper re-torqueing of cylinders is too high to allow anyone to do this EXCEPT their A&Ps. So because the seller will not allow their A&P to do this (true) and if it's done by someone else the potential for catastrophic engine failure in the first 100 hours after completing the job is too high.

At least I got a real answer out of them but man has it been hard to work with them.
 
Sorry, sounds like Busch is trying to do some Branding. Sorry, I'm becoming unimpressed by his operation. He's trying to franchise himself sounds like. You're paying him for a service, he isn't doing you a favor. I'd walk away from him.
 
I build V engines. These opposed are new to me. When I saw one for the first time tore down I new this was not an engine to be worked on by someone that has not been trained on this style engine.

Because of this I start researching these engines. Sure anyone can take one apart and put it back together. But to do it and get another 1000 hrs out of it takes talent. Just as it does when working on a V style engine.

People all the time tell me they rebuilt there engine. I see them months later and said engine is either not running or they sold car that said engine was in.

In order to get years of trouble free operation from an engine any engine, one better know what one is doing.

I trust what Mike Busch, but I have listened to him. This gives me the authority to judge him on what he says. Until others do the same they really should not judge.

As for this post it's been kept polite and professional how technicians should act.

Tony
 
I don't completely agree with that article either. I do agree it is work that must accomplished with great care and attention to details, much like most other things that take place during aircraft maintenance.
 
netsurfr said:
I did. But at the minimum I wanted a facts based answer for the $750 they charged me (plus $450 their A&P charged).
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Those were the facts right there. I wonder how many good planes they reject over piddle stuff. I doubt the $750 and $450 cover you till they finally approve of one does it? Color me jaded, but I've been in the Yacht business long enough to smell vampire operations.

The facts sound like he's an egomaniac looking out for his best interest, not yours.
 
I'm out my$750 and mike said since I continued to insist on asking questions of a plane they told me to reject I have now used any credit they would have been willing to apply to another pre buy managed by them. I'm ****ed about the $750 but no way I would be working with them after how I was treated so I would have lost any credit
 
Wise choice IMO. Like Henning, I smell a rat. This bearing thing is BS.
 
Henning said:
How? How do the bearings stay out of place when the bolts get torqued without squeezing the bearing into the crank hard enough you can't turn it by hand?:dunno: Where do the tabs go?
Click to expand...
Listening to his webinar, he stated it is a rather controversial position, but he was specific, if you are removing multiple cylinders, he wasn't referring to removing 1 pair.
 
teejayevans said:
Listening to his webinar, he stated it is a rather controversial position, but he was specific, if you are removing multiple cylinders, he wasn't referring to removing 1 pair.
Click to expand...

Then it doesn't apply does it? Plus the whole "Only my endorsed mechanics are capable of this delicate procedure." just rubs me oh soo ****ing wrong. There's just far too much 'God Complex' going on with this guy's operation.
 
Henning said:
Then it doesn't apply does it? Plus the whole "Only my endorsed mechanics are capable of this delicate procedure." just rubs me oh soo ****ing wrong. There's just far too much 'God Complex' going on with this guy's operation.
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No, that's not what he said :nono:
Try watching the vid before commenting...if you don't want to watch the whole thing, start around 1:14 mark.
He said if pulling multiple cylinders, top overhauls, should be done by an engine shop that has expertise.
 
teejayevans said:
No, that's not what he said :nono:
Try watching the vid before commenting...if you don't want to watch the whole thing, start around 1:14 mark.
He said if pulling multiple cylinders, top overhauls, should be done by an engine shop that has expertise.
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Yes he did, not in the video, to his client.

BUT they would only trust the SAVVY A&P to pull and re-install the cylinders. No one else because the risk of screwing up the job and having bearings shift due to improper re-torqueing of cylinders is too high to allow anyone to do this EXCEPT their A&Ps. So because the seller will not allow their A&P to do this (true) and if it's done by someone else the potential for catastrophic engine failure in the first 100 hours after completing the job is too high.
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This is utter fear mongering pandering for dollars and I detest it and will not support anyone who uses it in their business ethic because it means they are only watching out for their bottom line, not my interests. Besides, I would like to see the evidence of all the failure that should be occurring on a at least a weekly basis, where is the data?:dunno:

Like I said, I see this crap all the time in the yacht industry and it runs a lot of good owners away.
 
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I watched the video and yes Mike (in the video) is referring primarily to top overhauls where multiple cylinders need to be pulled. In my case I was told either 1 cylinder in the middle (#3 or #4) or 2 at the most and turning prop would be enough to inspect cam & lifters. SAVVY still said that this is too risky to allow anyone but their A&P to do.

BTW - I found out yesterday that the A&P they hooked me up with used to work for SAVVY as an account manager till recently when he decided to open his own shop PLUS his experience has been with Continentals & Cirrus airplanes. I should have been told about that potential conflict of interest and the guys background. I was expecting to be hooked up w/ A&Ps with expertise/experience with my make & model (Piper PA28-236).

Plane is going into another shop for ANOTHER pre-buy soon. This time I found an A&P/shop owner who has a lot of experience w/ Lycomings & Pipers and more importantly is an airplane owner (PA28 as a matter of fact) so he knows what to look for as a pilot/owner. We'll see what he comes up with.
 
netsurfr said:
I watched the video and yes Mike (in the video) is referring primarily to top overhauls where multiple cylinders need to be pulled. In my case I was told either 1 cylinder in the middle (#3 or #4) or 2 at the most and turning prop would be enough to inspect cam & lifters. SAVVY still said that this is too risky to allow anyone but their A&P to do.

BTW - I found out yesterday that the A&P they hooked me up with used to work for SAVVY as an account manager till recently when he decided to open his own shop PLUS his experience has been with Continentals & Cirrus airplanes. I should have been told about that potential conflict of interest and the guys background. I was expecting to be hooked up w/ A&Ps with expertise/experience with my make & model (Piper PA28-236).

Plane is going into another shop for ANOTHER pre-buy soon. This time I found an A&P/shop owner who has a lot of experience w/ Lycomings & Pipers and more importantly is an airplane owner (PA28 as a matter of fact) so he knows what to look for as a pilot/owner. We'll see what he comes up with.
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That's an absolute crock. I've done plenty of tops over the years and never had a bearing spin after any of them. Sounds like they were desperate for the business.
 
Norman said:
That's an absolute crock. I've done plenty of tops over the years and never had a bearing spin after any of them. Sounds like they were desperate for the business.
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Unless they are getting a kickback, recommending going to a engine shop is not giving them more business or $.
Maybe the ex-Savvy mechanic is getting preferred treatment, but in the end it will hurt their business.

For some reason their clients are mostly Cirrus owners, don't know why :dunno:
 
Smart move getting a different prebuy but it would be interesting to pull a cylinder to check the cam and lifters.

This past Spring I replaced all cylinders on my IO 520, it was done in my hanger and all cylinders were pulled in one afternoon. To minimize the spun bearing potential, each thru bolt got spacers and was retorqued before moving on to the next cylinder.

Spun bearings have caused engine failures but I am not sure if there have been many, or just a few that have been retold many times.

I am looking forward to reading the comments from the second prebuy, I hope they provide a clearer direction for you.
 
My plan is to let A&P do his pre-buy (inclusive of borescope) and if corrosion is seen inside a cylinder then I will ask seller to have his A&P pull 2 cylinders for further inspection while my A&P is there observing & inspecting. What would happen after that is too early to tell.

35B33 said:
Smart move getting a different prebuy but it would be interesting to pull a cylinder to check the cam and lifters.

This past Spring I replaced all cylinders on my IO 520, it was done in my hanger and all cylinders were pulled in one afternoon. To minimize the spun bearing potential, each thru bolt got spacers and was retorqued before moving on to the next cylinder.

Spun bearings have caused engine failures but I am not sure if there have been many, or just a few that have been retold many times.

I am looking forward to reading the comments from the second prebuy, I hope they provide a clearer direction for you.
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netsurfr said:
My plan is to let A&P do his pre-buy (inclusive of borescope) and if corrosion is seen inside a cylinder then I will ask seller to have his A&P pull 2 cylinders for further inspection while my A&P is there observing & inspecting. What would happen after that is too early to tell.
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This is exactly as the process should proceed.
 
Well I just had an interesting call w/ the A&P that did the 2nd prebuy. Short answer on the cylinder issue... He saw SOME light corrosion on some of the cylinders but nothing that he would not consider as normal and not deep enough to warrant concerns. Valves looked good too and that coupled w/ the oil analysis, oil and filter made him not be concerned. He said if the seller is willing to pay to have a couple cylinders pulled then sure why not take him up on it but if not for that he did not see any reason to walk from the plane. Here's an initial list of findings. The airworthiness items are marked w/ a star...

On initial ground run, all instruments looked normal with the exception static full power RPM 2300.
(RPM could increase on takeoff roll). Tach was calibrated in 2001 when new. ***

The aircraft records were very neat and organized as was the Flight Manual.

The last annual was performed on 4/17/2014. 24 mo. 91-411, 413 checks were performed 1/2014.

TT AF 2842.4 ENG. SMOH: 960.0

I did note that the inspector did not update the full A.D. Compliance Records, they were last done in 2010.
I did see a hand written recurring A.D. List that appeared to be current. The A.D. Notes appear to be in good order.

The standby vacuum system & oil cooler hoses each have a A.D. Note requiring inspections each 100hrs and they have been done

The aircraft structure was straight other than filler that was used on several spots of wing leading edges.

RH aileron trailing edge had hangar rash at outboard end and there was minor damage to pitot tube mounting area and that was noted in the Log Book entry 11-11-03. RH stabilator tip cracked & stopped drilled. Ramp check may require more than stopped drilling. ***

Several loose rivets were noted on stabilator lower spar attach & vertical fin skin to spar attach. ****

The paint & glass was completed in 2009 by Crider in Mena, Arkansas documentation Ok.

Interior also completed in 2009 by an interior shop also in Mena, Arkansas documentation Ok.

Damage History appears to be the 1980 hard landing & the pitot tube mass repair in 2003.

2 crack on cowling appears to only be cosmetic either gel coat or excessive filler cracking. Fortunately for future repair, it is only on the white so matching the metallic blue won't be necessary.

The baggage door seal was improperly installed and is coming loose.

The fuel quantity placards are missing at the fuel caps. ***

We noted that the old ELT switch was not removed from the interior pilot side panel & there is a new switch for the ACK unit that is installed on the lower pilot instrument panel. ***

We noted that the stall warning horn only worked with the PFD switch on.

Excessive free play was noted on the stabilator trim tab, jack screw & drum have wear. ***

Vacuum regulator and central gyro filter elements old and discolored. ***

Very small spot of rust & pitting was noted on the left rear wing attach fitting. Fitting must be changed per MSB 977. ***


Engine & lower cowling damp from minor oil leaks.

Boroscope inspecton, some rust pitting in Cyl. barrels. Valves appeared to be Ok. No metal found when oil filter opened. Compression: all 73/80 or better. Honing or regular use likely fixes this but cylinder can be pulled for peace of mind. ***

Baffling cracked & bent at #2, 3 & #5 cyls. ***

All valve covers with the exception of #1 cyl. leaking. ***

Crankcase breather tube leaking at crankcase

#2 cyl. push rod tubes leaking. ***

Possible oil leak at #3 cyl. base. Clean and determine. ***

Muffler shroud is worn on left side.

Cabin defroster duct hoses old. ***

All engine hoses dated 10/04 except for fuel transducer 11/09. ***

Ignition harness in fair condition. Center anti-chafe strip missing. ***
 
I wouldn't pull them for piece of mind, request an adjustment based on some of the other items like the oil leaks and stabilator crack, and baggage door. They seem like squawks you would want fixed.
 
Actually forgot to write that he too said that based on what he sees he wouldn't pull them either. I haven't gotten an estimate yet but one thing seller said he'd be willing to do regarding the corrosion is not only pay to have 1 or 2 cylinders pulled to inspect but ALSO reduce price by $4K for a re-honing and new rings.

teejayevans said:
I wouldn't pull them for piece of mind, request an adjustment based on some of the other items like the oil leaks and stabilator crack, and baggage door. They seem like squawks you would want fixed.
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netsurfr said:
Actually forgot to write that he too said that based on what he sees he wouldn't pull them either. I haven't gotten an estimate yet but one thing seller said he'd be willing to do regarding the corrosion is not only pay to have 1 or 2 cylinders pulled to inspect but ALSO reduce price by $4K for a re-honing and new rings.
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I take the $4k and would be more concern about the other items.
 
Sorry not sure what you mean. Are you saying I should take the $4K and negotiate more for the other items or are you saying the other items are a bigger concern than the cylinder?

teejayevans said:
I take the $4k and would be more concern about the other items.
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Run the engine as is. Use the cash to repair the list of things needing repaired.
 
Just me but I would run the engine for say 25 hrs. Then do a oil analysis and cutting open the filter.

Its the lefters and lobes you worry about having fail from corrosion. Not so much the cylinders. Just relies if you see a little corrosion on the cylinders there will be corrosion other places. I would think it would be no worse then what you are seeing in the cylinder but that is a guess.
 
netsurfr said:
Sorry not sure what you mean. Are you saying I should take the $4K and negotiate more for the other items or are you saying the other items are a bigger concern than the cylinder?
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The latter....I would follow up with pre-buy mechanic and ask for estimates of the other items you think are must fix. then you will have the complete picture, I would consider the 4k a early Xmas present.
 
One more thing, you have *s on everything, placards are not airworthy items, or discolored filters, old heater hoses, etc etc
 
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