Upon inital contact to ATC, say "request" or just blurt it all out?

Shawn

Shawn

En-Route
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
4,328
Location
Santa Cruz, CA
Display Name
Display name:
Shawn
Working on finishing up my IFR with my CFI and he got on me today for saying "Approach, Skylane 123AB, request" then waiting for a response upon an initial contact with ATC. He was adamant that I should just blurt out the request right from the get go.

Now I am talking a situation where you are NOT yet in the system on a strip or squawk and are requesting flight following or a pop up or practice IFR approach. I agreed with him that once you are on a squawk, blurt it out as they know who you are and what you are doing.

I was always taught and thought it was correct to say "request" upon initial contact so they can get back to you when THEY are ready.

His argument was that ATC would rather just get all of the information instead of having a back and forth tying up airtime.

Thoughts?
 
Last edited:
Make the call ,then the request. If the controller is busy ,he will tell you to stand by. You are not the only person in the system. It's always nice when the instructor knows what ATC wants.
 
I tend to see how busy the frequency is before I transmit. If it's not busy I'll say my full request. "NY Approach, Cessna 12345 5 north of Republic, level 2000 requesting FF to XXX." If it's busy I'll usually say "request" first. Throughout my Instrument training, my CFI would always say request first because we would want multiple approaches and holds. Seemed to work out better that way rather than giving Approach all the approaches and hold requests at once.
 
Exactly. I prefer when a pilot calls, "N123, request." If I'm not busy I can grab a strip and/or make the entry to give me a transponder code for you. If I am busy, then I can have you standby until the flurry ends and am able to give you more attention. It doesn't tie up my frequency, which is a nice courtesy.
 
Currently a VFR only pilot, I do preface initial calls to ATC with position, altitude and "VFR request".

I figure it tells them they don't need to look for a strip on me, and from my position and altitude they can assign me a better freq if appropriate.

Plus, if they're busy with IFR traffic they can shuttle me down on their priority list.

Seems to work well in practice.
 
Is it necessary to even include the word "request" in an initial call to ATC?

I can't think of a reason to make an initial call ( not a handoff from another controller) unless it is to make a request.

Just Podunk approach, bug smasher 123 Zulu. Nothing more.

What do you think, MarkZ?
 
My sense is, if you include either "request" or the actual request itself, it immediately clues in the estimable and intelligent controller that he or she need not look for my number as a handoff, etc.
 
Look at it from the ATC view...would you want a bunch of guys queuing up with a call 'request' like a kid asking for permission to go pee? Just say it. If they can't handle you, they say standby and you will get what want or they will ask you can repeat it.
 
CTLSi said:
Look at it from the ATC view...would you want a bunch of guys queuing up with a call 'request' like a kid asking for permission to go pee? Just say it. If they can't handle you, they say standby and you will get what want or they will ask you can repeat it.
Click to expand...
If you say request first instead of the whole transmission and still get denied, at least you won't clutter up the frequency.
 
I usually just give the request, unless it's too fool busy. Perhaps spoiled by our exceptionally good controllers here in dfw-land...
 
I just say "N123 request FF." I don't go into specifics until contact and they're ready to write.

At least they know what I'm going to request and I figure if they are super busy and don't want to do it, they'll come right back with "can't do it N123."

Done.
 
The AIM says do it all in one go. The AIM was also written back when most controller positions were manned by two people and sectors weren't dumped by the truckload on one guy or gal listening to six frequencies.

There is no good answer to the question. I tend to follow the AIM and let controller staffing issues be the Supervisor's problem at the facility. But others do the 'request" thing. Whatever.

I've also played around with changing my ways over the years. I found I was either handled excellently or ignored on about the same percentage basis using either method.
 
denverpilot said:
The AIM says do it all in one go. The AIM was also written back when most controller positions were manned by two people and sectors weren't dumped by the truckload on one guy or gal listening to six frequencies.

There is no good answer to the question. I tend to follow the AIM and let controller staffing issues be the Supervisor's problem at the facility. But others do the 'request" thing. Whatever.

I've also played around with changing my ways over the years. I found I was either handled excellently or ignored on about the same percentage basis using either method.
Click to expand...



AOPA "say it right" course recommends "N123 request" and that's it.

Six and one half dozen or the other I guess ... :dunno:
 
Probably depends on many things such as the congestion of the frequency and the individual controller. Maybe some will chime in.
 
CTLSi said:
Look at it from the ATC view...would you want a bunch of guys queuing up with a call 'request' like a kid asking for permission to go pee? Just say it. If they can't handle you, they say standby and you will get what want or they will ask you can repeat it.
Click to expand...


Just out of curiosity, are you the poster who used to be CTLSi on ctfier.com and is now 100hamburger?
 
Now my instructor did agree that if is congested, open with "request"

Found this so far in the AIM:

4-2-3. Contact Procedures
a. Initial Contact.
1. The terms initial contact or initial callup means the first radio call you make to a given facility or the first call to a different controller or FSS specialist within a facility. Use the following format:
(a) Name of the facility being called;
(b) Your full aircraft identification as filed in the flight plan or as discussed in paragraph 4-2-4, Aircraft Call Signs;
(c) When operating on an airport surface, state your position.
(d) The type of message to follow or your request if it is short;

EXAMPLE-
3. "Miami Center, Baron Five Six Three Hotel, request V-F-R traffic advisories."


It is the "if it is short" (d) that seems to be the conflict in procedures of which way is correct in average day to day use. I would not necessarily consider for FF who you are, where you are, altitude at, altitude climbing to, what you want, destination airport, airspace transitions information qualifying as "short".
 
Last edited:
NoHeat said:
Is it necessary to even include the word "request" in an initial call to ATC?

I can't think of a reason to make an initial call ( not a handoff from another controller) unless it is to make a request.

Just Podunk approach, bug smasher 123 Zulu. Nothing more.

What do you think, MarkZ?
Click to expand...

Yep,

Not that adding that one word really makes a big difference one way or another.

Also just because the frequency seems dead doesn't mean the controller isn't busy on the land line or something. And really just saying your tail number will do the trick, it's not like they don't know you want something.

I just say AirplaneX n1232, 5 north of KABC, 2 thousand.

Even that's a little overkill

When I KNOW it's busy I'll just say "Approach N1232"

They'll get back to you when they're ready.
 
NoHeat said:
What do you think, MarkZ?
Click to expand...


Simple. Use common sense.

If you say "request" or not, that's semantics. Checking on a busy frequency with half a minute worth of information (that a controller won't be ready for) will create a busy situation for the controller. Where I work, seconds matter. If a pilot takes up my frequency for a dozen seconds with his or her position, altitude, and/or specific request, that's a base leg turn or a final turn that I cannot give to the traffic I'm working. It's an important traffic call, or a vector that I have to give that has to wait. It adds to the controller workload.

Just let the controller know you're out there, and you'd like some help in the form of flight following. If you check on with your call sign that will do the trick. On a sector that isn't busy, give the whole gambit if that's your jam, but be ready to repeat it if the controller isn't ready (it happens). If you give your life story on a busy frequency, you probably are creating a situation that the controller has to fix. Which makes the controller busier than if you just checked on with your call sign. Because now that the frequency got clogged for that time, the controller has to play "catch up."

Hope that helps!
 
I was taught to just say "request" because you need to give the Travis Approach controller time to put his coffee cup down.
 
Old Geek said:
I was taught to just say "request" because you need to give the Travis Approach controller time to put his coffee cup down.
Click to expand...


Hahaha. Nice.

This is one nice part about the IFR ticket. "Denver, Skylane 1279M, six-thousand eight-hundred, climbing niner thousand." Done. ;) Maybe have to include the "assigned heading 080" once in a while. Heh. It's nice when they're already expecting you. ;)

Of course there's always the dreaded, "Skylane 79M, radar contact, let me know when you're ready to copy an amended clearance, turn right heading 120 for traffic."

LOL! You win some, you lose some. :)
 
denverpilot said:
LOL! You win some, you lose some. :)
Click to expand...

ain't that the truth!

denverpilot said:
This is one nice part about the IFR ticket. "Denver, Skylane 1279M, six-thousand eight-hundred, climbing niner thousand." Done.
Click to expand...

...and just to make sure we are staying on track (I know, hard to do around here) we are taking about INITIAL contact such as picking up your clearance in the air or FF, NOT a hand off or amended clearance request once established.
 
As stated, it depends on your request and how busy the controllers are. If you're requesting FF, many just say it all as one. If you have a special request that takes a while to explain or a question. Then I'll say, "Cessna XXX with a request or question." Sometimes even if you're requesting FF, it'd be a good idea to listen to the radio to see how probable it is to get FF. 9 times out of 10, you'll get it. I've only been denied a few times but then I don't live around a highly congested area.
 
My personal preference as a TRACON guy at a class B is say callsign request, UNLESS you have an IFR on file in which case Callsign,IFR To Smithville/ABC is just fine.

Background, I've had up to 7 of the over 30 frequencies I'm working call up at the same time two towers and one center sector have over the land line. I can't make sense of anyone. Granted that rare, but if I can't even hear myself think amidst the 10 conversations directed at me, by the time the one or two controllers/pilots finish their long winded speech the short winded guys are wondering why I'm not chiming in and its a mess. This leads to chaos when an expectant GA pilot takes a climb and wonders why I called him American, someone takes a clearance for/chimes in that they aren't going east when they took another guy's clearance and 2 other guys are asking for radio checks.

Even if I AM dead, a 30 second call up could have just blown an aircraft on that freq through the final. Even if I'm not in that position think to yourself. In your day job, would you be better served by someone saying hey Bill, Bob want's something, or instead Oh Bill, Bob wants the specifications on that component changed to such and such diameter and this tensile strength and by Tuesday.

Even if I can hear the tone of your voice being a flight following tone and none of these if applicable I'm primed to type it in. If you're one of those who inserts Kilo before your three letter origin destination I'm too busy backspacing on your origin and will never hear the rest because I didn't anticipate having to clarify a Skyhawk isn't in fact going non stop VFR to London.
 
Approach_controller said:
Background, I've had up to 7 of the over 30 frequencies I'm working call up at the same time two towers and one center sector have over the land line.
Click to expand...


I knew it was bad but that's beyond bad and well into unsafe.

But hey. ADS-B will fix it all right up!

Wow.

The people setting controller staffing levels have lost their damn minds. The people above them are even stupider. At least from the perspective of spending and priorities.

Thanks for sharing.
 
I normally do the 'request' as well. The controller might be busy and not able to catch what I say, so I'll just have to repeat it. I call "...request" and wait, now they can respond when they are ready to deal with my request.

There are times though, especially on a busy freq coming into a C or D, when I get any break to get in, I'll just roll the whole thing out first chance I get.
 
There's no perfect answer to your question. My preference when I did ATC and now as a pilot, is a wake up call without even adding "request." My reasons:

1) If you transmit just your call sign it's obvious you have a request. It takes the controller a couple seconds to write your call sign down and scan the strip board to see if you're an IFR departure. If they're a good controller, they'd already know what's on their non-towered airfield IFR proposals and know if you are one of them. Example- "N12345, squawk 4321 for your IFR to XYZ." If not IFR and you're a random VFR FF then "N12345, go ahead." They're probably already typing in your callsign anticipating a FF request. By the time you're done telling them your information, they've got you in the ARTS computer and will give you a local sqk.

2) Too many pilots rattle off a long request when either they're out of range, below reception, or their radios just plain suck. Now you've just wasted a transmission because the controller got none or parts of it. Don't know how many times I've had aircraft say "approach, I've been trying to get a hold of you for the past 10 miles." Yeah, that's because you're out of range.

3) Controller could be on the landline. Now, it does go to the speaker and depending on how good the controller is they might have even copied everything but I think most times you'll hear "Aircraft calling XYZ approach, I was on the landline. Say again your request."

4) As said above, the controller usually has more than one freq up at once. That's not just VHF but also UHF. I usually had 2 VHFs and 2 UHFs up and then a lot of times had aircraft up on separate VHF and UHF GCA SFA freqs. There's a pretty good chance a long initial transmission for FF would get drowned out in that scenario.

5) The controller is just flat out busy. Checking in with a long transmission could block read backs or higher priorities such as vectors or clearances.

Obviously if a controller is expecting you because of a handoff or IFR departure, then there's no point in a wake up. Just transmit your call sign and your message.
 
The answer to the question as stated in the topic subject is "yes."

Done it both wats based on my perception of the situation.
 
jnmeade said:
Just out of curiosity, are you the poster who used to be CTLSi on ctfier.com and is now 100hamburger?
Click to expand...

Never mind, I figured it out.
Congratulation on your wife getting her Sport Pilot certificate. Are you still flying on your student ticket or are you a Sport Pilot now, too?
 
Approach_controller said:
...If you're one of those who inserts Kilo before your three letter origin destination I'm too busy backspacing on your origin and will never hear the rest because I didn't anticipate having to clarify a Skyhawk isn't in fact going non stop VFR to London.
Click to expand...

I love it! :rofl:
 
Many years ago, when there was still a Bay Approach, one of their controllers was giving a presentation at our flying club, and he said the only thing they want to hear when a pilot calls with a request is the approach control name and the aircraft call sign.
 
Usually, I just give my call sign and wait for a callback.

At times getting back into Dulles it was easier to give the terse:

Dulles Approach, Navion 5327K 25 North 3000 Parking Landmark.

this cuts through the crap and lets them know you know what you're doing where otherwise they are telling everybody to stand by (or outright ignoring them).
 
jordane93 said:
If you say request first instead of the whole transmission and still get denied, at least you won't clutter up the frequency.
Click to expand...

So, you say request. ATC says what do you want. Then you say it. Then they reply.

That's less cluttering than saying what you want, and getting a reply?

Strange logic.
 
I started my IFR training saying request. I now on initial contact say "____ Approach, N123SP". They seem more than happy with that and its shorter than adding the request. Response is typically "N123SP, go ahead". The "request" thing kind of bugs me now like the "with you" thing. :)
 
CTLSi said:
So, you say request. ATC says what do you want. Then you say it. Then they reply.

That's less cluttering than saying what you want, and getting a reply?

Strange logic.
Click to expand...

Have you read this thread??
 
If it's quiet and you think you have the controller's attention and it's a simple request, go ahead and spit it all out at once. Otherwise, get the controller's attention first so you don't have to do it all again.
 
The worst sinners I've heard in the air are those who start saying their full, yet unformulated and unclear request and take their sweet time, deciding where they actually are, where they want to go, oh the wife wants to go somewhere else? Oh okay, they'll go to a different place then and they are at some unintelligible altitude. Insert a lot of "ummmm" and "uhhhh" an you have yourself a one-minute transmission that might have stepped on a few others to begin with.

Now who in their right mind would argue against "Approach, Skyhawk 786CM, request"? :)
 
BigBadLou said:
Now who in their right mind would argue against "Approach, Skyhawk 786CM, request"? :)
Click to expand...

My current CFI would!

His experience comes from a seminar that had a SoCal controller speaking and he said that blurting it all out was the way to do it. Now it is clear from other controller's perspective here that the controller's recommendation was merely that controller preference for his sector.

Of course then again today he suggested that "negative contact" when responding to traffic advisories was not correct.

Trust but verify!
 
Last edited:
I think based on the replies here (many from controllers or former controllers) it is obvious your instructor was wrong in reprimanding you. I follow what most of the other pilots here said, i.e. on my first call-up I just say who I am calling and who I am. There will be time later for where you are and what you want. If your instructor is hard-headed about this, just go along until you no longer need him/her. Then you can do like most of us and change. There is always room for improvement.
 
Shawn said:
My current CFI would!

His experience comes from a seminar that had a SoCal controller speaking and he said that blurting it all out was the way to do it. Now it is clear from other controller's perspective here that the controller's recommendation was merely that controller preference for his sector.

Of course then again today he suggested that "negative contact" when responding to traffic advisories was not correct.

Trust but verify!
Click to expand...

You just can't apply a one size fits all approach like your CFI wants. That's technique anyway and not a standard.

If you just look at it as ATC expecting your call then it makes more sense. For instance, if I'm calling CD off an airport VFR, I'll do a wake up because they aren't expecting my call. Example:

"Savannah clearance delivery, N12345."
"N12345 Savannah Clearance delivery, go ahead."
"N12345 at Signature with Alpha, VFR departure to Myrtle Beach at 5,500 requesting FF."

Now if I'm IFR, they have my strip and are expecting a call soon based on the ETD on it. There isn't a need for a wake up because there isn't anything to write down and the message is short:

"Savannah clearance delivery, N12345 at Signature with Alpha requesting IFR to Myrtle Beach."

Two completely different situations. One, CD scrambling to write down a long request and the other one, a strip that already printed and ready to issue the clearance.

Either technique you use it's not a big deal. Over time you'll find a format that works for you.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top