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MIAMI NEWS TIMES "Home-built aircraft are five times as likely to crash as professionally made planes. And if an accident does happen, their pilots are seven times as likely to die, according to federal investigators. In 2011, 212 home-built aircraft have crashed around the United States, killing 63 people."

Your cut and paste facts are wrong.

The cause of these accidents are not known. My guess is none were due to airframe failures.

How many certified planes crashed during that same time? I know the number will be less, as there are less flying. :dunno:

Now you are back spewing hate and mis-facts towards the most successful segment in piston GA. Nice.
 
According to the National Transportation Safety Board, which conducted an in-depth study in 2011, such aircraft make up almost 10% of all general aviation.
But the experimentals also accounted for about 15% of the accidents and 21% of fatalities in 2011.

Wow, your link goes to the NTSB home page, not even to the report. You sure did a lot of effort there! :no:

These numbers have been massaged here many times. You are a day late and a dollar short, as well as biased and misinformed.

Yes, more people are flying more hours in experimentals, and you see this as a bad thing? :dunno:

How are your comments and slurs a benefit to GA?

Do you really think your little thread is going to stop experimentals? :rofl:

Do you really think your position on the expanding segment in GA is beneficial to your career? :no:
 
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Wow, your link goes to the NTSB home page, not even to the report. You sure did a lot of effort there! :no:

These numbers have been massaged here many times. You are a day late and a dollar short, as well as biased and misinformed.

Yes, more people are flying more hours in experimentals, and you see this as a bad thing? :dunno:

How are your comments and slurs a benefit to GA?

Do you really think your little thread is going to stop experimentals? :rofl:

Do you really think your position on the expanding segment in GA is beneficial to your career? :no:

I see all you have to offer is your Expert opinion :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
I see all you have to offer is your Expert opinion :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Nope, I offer common sense and no hatred towards anything that flies. I'll let you and Tom claim the title of expert.

Why would anyone take their plane to you or Tom? You and Tom are doing such a good job promoting experimentals, I'll just leave you to your rants and hatred.
 
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According to the National Transportation Safety Board, which conducted an in-depth study in 2011, such aircraft make up almost 10% of all general aviation.
But the experimentals also accounted for about 15% of the accidents and 21% of fatalities in 2011.

But you fail to add that in 2013 experimentals had 25% less accidents.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69040


The FAA for years would not allow experimentals to be used as trainers forcing builders to take to the skies with little or no training in a brand new airplane. This accounts for a large portion of the accidents. Your beloved FAA was actually part of the problem that has now been solved through the actions of EAA.

Your blind hatred for experimentals is pretty clear to all.

What makes you a VERY sick person is you get all excited about the number of experimentals that crash rather than work towards problem solving the issues.
 
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Over 8000 RVs out there flying and how many have gone down due to building errors? Seriously, if we based aviation on a 170 we'd still be back in the stone age right along with ya. I've been immersed in the Experimental world for over 7 years now and have, to date, seen only one or two planes I wouldn't fly in. I've seen a couple ratty ones built by A&Ps tha had over 1000 hours on them and are going strong. Doing things "your way" doesn't make them the only way - get over yourself.

Thanks God for Van and Burt and Tom and Lance and, and, and....for modern, fast, well performing flying machines.

Actually a buddy has a 170 and I enjoy flying in it if we aren't going far. Would never spit on it like you do to our builds. Those guys across the way may be idiots and they may be just like me, learning as they go and asking a lot of questions. I'm overhauling right now and have learned more about a Lycoming than I ever wanted to know. When I'm done it will be built exceptionally well and I'll know it inside and out. Right now when someone asks me a question they probably get the same dumb look you get from your neighbors. Won't be that way long as I'll definitely know the answer next time you ask plus maybe more than you know about the subject.

Geico and I don't rag on folks for nothing - we rag on you because you are not kind to us and the know-it-all attitude is a total turnoff. Have met many A&Ps like you and I ignore them too. Fortunately I've several that help me and know my plane and appreciate my approach to the modification and maintenance of it. Thank God they don't have your lousy attitude. "... because they want things done properly....." Gees, what nonsense. :nono:

KITPLANES "[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]When it comes to the categories where homebuilts score worst, the biggest standout is probably Builder Error. More than 5% of homebuilt accidents are directly caused by mistakes made during the aircraft’s construction. More than a third involved the aircraft’s fuel system, with an additional 30% due to mistakes made with the engine or drivetrain. "[/FONT]
 
KITPLANES "[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]When it comes to the categories where homebuilts score worst, the biggest standout is probably Builder Error. More than 5% of homebuilt accidents are directly caused by mistakes made during the aircraft’s construction. More than a third involved the aircraft’s fuel system, with an additional 30% due to mistakes made with the engine or drivetrain. "[/FONT]

Was it fun masturbating while you read that?
 
Turned it personal right away. and yes I flagged it.

Personal? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

:rolleyes:

Just how are you and Brien helping the very business you claim to love? Why not join an EAA Chapter and become a tech counselor and assist builders with their projects and questions like I do? Why not volunteer to inspect homebuilts and offer your services to them rather than tear them down? Your ignorance on how to run an airplane repair business is simply mind boggling! :mad2:

It is easy to try and tear something down, quite another to try and improve it. Maybe in the process you could MAKE IT PROFITABLE? :dunno:

Shouldn't you be trying to promote your services and GA? :nono:

You just can't fix stupid. :no:
 
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Why not join an EAA Chapter and become a tech counselor and assist builders with their projects and questions like I do?

Would you like my EAA membership number?

Go to the EAA forums and try your writing style there and see how long you will get away with it.

EXP ownership has a weak link, your refusal to recognize it is part of the problem.
 
Would you like my EAA membership number?

Go to the EAA forums and try your writing style there and see how long you will get away with it.

EXP ownership has a weak link, your refusal to recognize it is part of the problem.

ALL segments of any activity will have their bad actors.....

I think the main beef here is you and brien23 keep throwing out the words " many, alot, etc etc.....

The actual problem you and brien23 claim to exist is maybe 1-2 % of the fleet.....

Can you or him point out any crashes caused by poor maintenance or poor quality parts?:dunno:.....
 
Nope, I offer common sense and no hatred towards anything that flies. I'll let you and Tom claim the title of expert.

Thank you for recognizing that fact :)

Why would anyone take their plane to you or Tom?

Because they need help? They know they are in over their heads? or they don't have the equipment, or skills?


You and Tom are doing such a good job promoting experimentals, I'll just leave you to your rants and hatred.
Promoting is not my business, making stuff for customers is. Hating is not what I do, When I run into folks like you I simply avoid them let them go some where else to get what they need.

I'm at a place in my life that I see no need for the frustration, but I'll admit, I do like ragging on you.

your narrow mind approach and wrong assumptions and know it all attitude, make it way too easy.
 
I'll admit, I do like ragging on you.

your narrow mind approach and wrong assumptions and know it all attitude, make it way too easy.
Wait, hang on. I lost my place. Which one of you said that?

:dunno: :lol:
 
Brien & Tom:
I'm confused. Why the hell shouldn't someone be allowed to build their own airplane even if that means there is a increased risk of them being killed in it versus buying a certified plane?

I ride a motorcycle instead of drive a car most of the time. The risk of me being killed because of that decision is MUCH greater than the risk difference between certified and experimental.

This is America. It's not the government's job to protect oneself from doing things they enjoy even if that means that person's chance of being killed is increased by that risk.

We'd save BY FAR more pilots if the government were to just force people to eat right and exercise. Many many many times more then if we got rid of experimentals. I propose we implement a rule that says nobody can fly an airplane if their BMI is above 25 no exceptions period. Perhaps we make pilots run a mile at least 5 times a week, or equivalent cardio exercise, in addition to that as well. The average lifespan of pilots would increase dramatically!

Or we could just let people continue to do what they do even if that does increase risks and reduce lifespan, because, well, that's what freedom is.
 
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ALL segments of any activity will have their bad actors.....

I think the main beef here is you and brien23 keep throwing out the words " many, alot, etc etc.....

The actual problem you and brien23 claim to exist is maybe 1-2 % of the fleet.....

Can you or him point out any crashes caused by poor maintenance or poor quality parts?:dunno:.....
National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594
Brief of
Adopted
Make/Model:
Engine Make/Model:
Aircraft Damage:
Number of Engines:
Operating Certificate(s):
Fatal Serious Minor/None
Crew
Pass
Last Depart. Point:
Destination:
Airport Proximity:
Condition of Light:
Weather Info Src:
Basic Weather:
Lowest Ceiling:
Visibility:
Wind Dir/Speed:
Temperature (°C):
Precip/Obscuration:
Pilot-in-Command Age:
Certificate(s)/Rating(s)
Flight Time (Hours)
Total All Aircraft:
Last 90 Days:
Total Make/Model:
Total Instrument Time:
Printed on : 03/27/2014 12:23:23 PM
Accident
04/28/2011
CEN10FA042
File No. 27762 11/06/2009 Agnos ,AR Aircraft Reg No. N538CJ Time (Local): 10:05 CST
Zenith Acft Co/ZODIAC 601 XL
Jabiru / 3300
Destroyed
1
None
Personal
Part 91: General Aviation
Ash Flat, AR
Local Flight, AR
Off Airport/Airstrip
1 0 0
0 0 0
Day
Weather Observation Facility
Visual Conditions
None
9.00 SM
180 / 008 kts
18
No Obscuration; No Precipitation
*** Note: NTSB investigators either traveled in support of this investigation or conducted a significant amount of investigative work
without any travel, and used data obtained from various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report. ***
Flight track data recovered from an onboard global positioning system, and a subsequent performance study depicted the accident airplane
flying between the altitudes of 2,500 and 3,500 feet at airspeeds between 60 and 108 knots calibrated airspeed (KCAS). The calculated bank
angle for the entire flight never exceeded 30 degrees and at the time of the accident, the airplane was climbing at 500 feet per minute
through 2,800 feet and had accelerated to 100 KCAS. The estimated angle of attack was about 3 degrees during the last minute of the flight.
There was no evidence of excessive airspeed or maneuvers that would lead to a structural overload and subsequent breakup. The wreckage was
spread over 600 feet. An examination of the airplane wreckage revealed compression buckling of the upper and lower caps of both rear spars
and upward and downward bending of both wings. The upward and downward movement, twisting, and flexing of the airplane wing surface was
consistent with the occurrence of aerodynamic flutter. The structural loading at the wing roots were further increased as the trailing
edges of the outboard sections moved up and down. Ultimately both wings failed in down bending at the root. The ailerons did not have
counterbalances that offer direct protection from aerodynamic flutter. Aerodynamic flutter can occur when there is insufficient stiffness
in the structure or the flight controls are not mass balanced. Less stiff structure can be protected to higher airspeeds with the use of
counterbalances on the flight controls. In addition, damage was noted on the flap assemblies consistent with over travel in the upward
direction. An examination of the engine revealed no anomalies.
 
That 601 crash was not exactly caused by poor maintenance or poor quality parts. There's a much bigger issue and more serious issue going on with those particular planes.... and practically everybody in the experimental and light sport world is well-aware of it.

While we're "cherry picking" examples to point out personal agendas, let me point out this one of a well-known model of a certificated aircraft: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfkkiDsEXUA
 
KITPLANES "[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]When it comes to the categories where homebuilts score worst, the biggest standout is probably Builder Error. More than 5% of homebuilt accidents are directly caused by mistakes made during the aircraft’s construction. More than a third involved the aircraft’s fuel system, with an additional 30% due to mistakes made with the engine or drivetrain. "[/FONT]
Well, as the probable source of that "5%" number, let me chime in here.

There were about 210 homebuilt accidents in 2012. 5% is about 11 aircraft...out of about 30,000. Hardly sounds like a huge public health crisis.

I've got some problems regarding the other statistics you've quoted; I'll chime in tonight when I have data to hand.

Ron Wanttaja
 
The group as a whole seems to be very uninformed but I'll not judge the other EXP builder/owners by this bunch.

And rather than trying to improve the situation by helping inform them, you sit back and criticize. Got it.
 
Can you or him point out any crashes caused by poor maintenance or poor quality parts?:dunno:.....

I can, Ben. One that comes to mind is someone who used Lowes pine planks for the wing spars on a small biplane.

As far as maintenance goes, one of the things I stress in my local EAA presentation is that building an airplane does not give you any experience in how parts *wear*. An experienced A&P might have a better idea of what to look for.

One of the interesting results of my studies is a plot of the number of accidents vs. the total aircraft hours. It drops steadily from first flight to forty hours...but then rises to a secondary peak at 60 hours. Some of this is due to the airplane being cleared for cross-country flight (more VFR into IFR, fuel exhaustion, etc.) but there is also a rise in mechanical issues. My personal opinion is that poorly-installed components might be OK for a while, but suffer accelerated wear.

Note that the time is right about the time for the first condition inspection. We've seen mention of "parties" before DAR's inspection, with groups of EAAers coming by to catch anything wrong. At my EAA presentations, I suggest another such party at the first conditon inspection...perhaps not the full crowd, but another set of eyes would be good.

Bad construction and poor maintenance is certainly a problem, but as I mentioned in another post, the actual number of cases is relatively low.

Of course, poor maintenance is *not restricted to the homebuilt world.* IIRC, the percentage of accidents due to bad maintenance is surprisingly close, between the homebuilt and the production-area world. Perhaps not as surprising, when you realize that about half the homebuilt fleet is owned by a person OTHER than the one holding the Repairman Certificate, and they have bring a pro in for the condition inspection, at least.

Ron Wanttaja
 
h14A1018F
 
I can, Ben. One that comes to mind is someone who used Lowes pine planks for the wing spars on a small biplane.

.........

Ron Wanttaja

I seem to remember that one now... Didn't the wing fold up on the downwind /base leg and it was witnessed by other pilots?...

To Tom and brien23........

Ron will tell us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.. I have the utmost respect for his work...:yes:....
 
you sit back and criticize. Got it.

wrong again! I simply ask questions to see what they know. and when they have no answer I give them the location to find the proper information.
 
To Tom and brien23........

Ron will tell us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.. I have the utmost respect for his work...:yes:....

Why should this even rate a mention?
 
National Transportation Safety Board
.....An examination of the engine revealed no anomalies.

One more "cut and paste" answer from you and I am going to request the mods take away your computer keyboard...:yes:..............:rolleyes:
 
One more "cut and paste" answer from you and I am going to request the mods take away your computer keyboard...:yes:..............:rolleyes:

He'd just use his phone :)
 
That's great, you are at least being entertained. :)

that is what this page is good for.

I'm just saying, the amount of bickering and even direct attacks going on here is staggering. I've seen people get banned off of 4chan for less.

Not saying names but, seriously guys, this really is getting out of hand.
 
I'm just saying, the amount of bickering and even direct attacks going on here is staggering. I've seen people get banned off of 4chan for less.

Not saying names but, seriously guys, this really is getting out of hand.

Oh who cares! Some people need to develop a thicker skin. It was a "lively debate" that is all.

:dunno:
 
MIAMI NEWS TIMES "Home-built aircraft are five times as likely to crash as professionally made planes. And if an accident does happen, their pilots are seven times as likely to die, according to federal investigators. In 2011, 212 home-built aircraft have crashed around the United States, killing 63 people."
Well...I see the source of a couple of aspects of those quotes, though the paper is just plain wrong on one statistic. Allow me to give you my perspective.

The "Seven Times as Likely" claim came from the Nall Report a few years back. Makes a great quote, but I'm not enamored of their process. The Nall Report computes its figures based on the estimated number of hours flown, by GA aircraft vs. homebuilt aircraft.

They don't make the annual hours estimate. The FAA does. The FAA holds the basis for that estimate very tightly; there's rarely any insight into the process. Several years back, I was in a telecon with the FAA, the Nall Report folks, and a couple of people from EAA. Didn't get much insight, but one aspect is stunning.

Take Geico, that man-about-town RV-10 driver. According to the FAA, he flies his RV 29 hours per year.

Say you convince Geico of the error of his ways. He sells the RV, and buys a Cessna 172.

The FAA now assumes he flies *two hundred* hours per year. Just because he's now flying a certified airplane.

How did the FAA come up with that 29 vs. 200 values? We don't really know. It's a combination of survey inputs and a string of assumptions as to how many homebuilts on the registry are still active. Low estimate for homebuilts, of course. No basis for that, it's just their estimate.

Divide that 200 by 29. You get just about 6.9...which is the amount the Miami paper said that homebuilts are *worse* than production airplanes.

Odd coincidence, that.

The basic problem is that the estimate is based on a stream of unpublished assumptions. You can't check their numbers because you don't know HOW they came up with their numbers. The Nall Report guys just shrug and say, "We used FAA estimates." The FAA guys aren't talking.

The basic problem is what I refer to as comparable use. The FAA probably estimates how many hours privately-owned aircraft fly, adds that to an estimate of how many hour hours charter aircraft flew, adds it to an estimate of how many hours the country's Gulfstreams and Beechjets flew, and divides that by the total number of GA aircraft.

But of course, those homebuilts aren't flying charters. They (mostly) aren't corporate-owned, they aren't flown by pilots specifically hired to fly them. They aren't required to undergo 100-hour inspections, and their upkeep is a matter of a private owner's pocketbook, not a corporation's tax deduction.

Frankly, if you do an accidents-per-100,000-flight-hour comparison between Learjets and Stinsons, the Stinsons will come out far worse.

The fair comparison would be to a Cessna 172 or Piper Warrior, to an estimate of how many hours a private owner flies per year for personal travel and recreational flying...which is all the homebuilt owner can legally do.

But of course, those numbers...other than the 200 hours per year overall average...aren't available.

So, what to do?

How about we *assume* the homebuilt owner and the Cessna owner fly the same number of hours per year?

To me, it's a beautiful solution. Anyone can then compute the "Fleet Accident Rate" (number of accidents per year divided by the number of airplanes of that type). There are no mysterious undocumented assumptions; no "we got the numbers from the FAA" sort of excuses. Number of accidents/number of aircraft. Simple.

The last time I ran this analysis, homebuilts had a 46% higher accident rate than the overall US fleet. They had a lower rate than several types, such as the PA-18. If you eliminated the aircraft still in their test periods, the homebuilt rate dropped to about 15% higher than the overall rate.

When you consider that the aircraft are built, flown, and often designed by amateurs, I don't think 15% is all that bad. Yes, it's higher when you include the airplanes in the test period...but consider: How many production-airplane buyers buy a plane with zero hours? They're all going to have at least one test flight by a company test pilot...and if something happens, a professional test pilot, with scads of experience in that model, is just who you want at the controls to keep from becoming a statistic.

As for the Miami paper's claim that in an accident, "[homebuilt] pilots are seven times as likely to die," that's bull.

For the 1998-2012 period, here are the fatality rates (percentage of accidents with at least one fatality) for the overall US fleet, for homebuilts, and a number of common GA aircraft.

Overall 21%
Homebuilts 27%
Cessna 18%
Cessna 172 13%
Cessna 182 21%
Cessna 210 25%
Cessna 185 15%
Piper 22%
Piper PA-28 20%
Beech 32%
Beech Bonanzas 34%
Mooney 25%
Cirrus 41%
Diamond 18%

You can argue speeds vs. configuration, but there's no way the homebuilt fatality rate is seven times higher.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Well...I see the source of a couple of aspects of those quotes, though the paper is just plain wrong on one statistic. Allow me to give you my perspective.

The "Seven Times as Likely" claim came from the Nall Report a few years back. Makes a great quote, but I'm not enamored of their process. The Nall Report computes its figures based on the estimated number of hours flown, by GA aircraft vs. homebuilt aircraft.

They don't make the annual hours estimate. The FAA does. The FAA holds the basis for that estimate very tightly; there's rarely any insight into the process. Several years back, I was in a telecon with the FAA, the Nall Report folks, and a couple of people from EAA. Didn't get much insight, but one aspect is stunning.

Take Geico, that man-about-town RV-10 driver. According to the FAA, he flies his RV 29 hours per year.

Say you convince Geico of the error of his ways. He sells the RV, and buys a Cessna 172.

The FAA now assumes he flies *two hundred* hours per year. Just because he's now flying a certified airplane.

How did the FAA come up with that 29 vs. 200 values? We don't really know. It's a combination of survey inputs and a string of assumptions as to how many homebuilts on the registry are still active. Low estimate for homebuilts, of course. No basis for that, it's just their estimate.

Divide that 200 by 29. You get just about 6.9...which is the amount the Miami paper said that homebuilts are *worse* than production airplanes.

Odd coincidence, that.

The basic problem is that the estimate is based on a stream of unpublished assumptions. You can't check their numbers because you don't know HOW they came up with their numbers. The Nall Report guys just shrug and say, "We used FAA estimates." The FAA guys aren't talking.

The basic problem is what I refer to as comparable use. The FAA probably estimates how many hours privately-owned aircraft fly, adds that to an estimate of how many hour hours charter aircraft flew, adds it to an estimate of how many hours the country's Gulfstreams and Beechjets flew, and divides that by the total number of GA aircraft.

But of course, those homebuilts aren't flying charters. They (mostly) aren't corporate-owned, they aren't flown by pilots specifically hired to fly them. They aren't required to undergo 100-hour inspections, and their upkeep is a matter of a private owner's pocketbook, not a corporation's tax deduction.

Frankly, if you do an accidents-per-100,000-flight-hour comparison between Learjets and Stinsons, the Stinsons will come out far worse.

The fair comparison would be to a Cessna 172 or Piper Warrior, to an estimate of how many hours a private owner flies per year for personal travel and recreational flying...which is all the homebuilt owner can legally do.

But of course, those numbers...other than the 200 hours per year overall average...aren't available.

So, what to do?

How about we *assume* the homebuilt owner and the Cessna owner fly the same number of hours per year?

To me, it's a beautiful solution. Anyone can then compute the "Fleet Accident Rate" (number of accidents per year divided by the number of airplanes of that type). There are no mysterious undocumented assumptions; no "we got the numbers from the FAA" sort of excuses. Number of accidents/number of aircraft. Simple.

The last time I ran this analysis, homebuilts had a 46% higher accident rate than the overall US fleet. They had a lower rate than several types, such as the PA-18. If you eliminated the aircraft still in their test periods, the homebuilt rate dropped to about 15% higher than the overall rate.

When you consider that the aircraft are built, flown, and often designed by amateurs, I don't think 15% is all that bad. Yes, it's higher when you include the airplanes in the test period...but consider: How many production-airplane buyers buy a plane with zero hours? They're all going to have at least one test flight by a company test pilot...and if something happens, a professional test pilot, with scads of experience in that model, is just who you want at the controls to keep from becoming a statistic.

As for the Miami paper's claim that in an accident, "[homebuilt] pilots are seven times as likely to die," that's bull.

For the 1998-2012 period, here are the fatality rates (percentage of accidents with at least one fatality) for the overall US fleet, for homebuilts, and a number of common GA aircraft.

Overall 21%
Homebuilts 27%
Cessna 18%
Cessna 172 13%
Cessna 182 21%
Cessna 210 25%
Cessna 185 15%
Piper 22%
Piper PA-28 20%
Beech 32%
Beech Bonanzas 34%
Mooney 25%
Cirrus 41%
Diamond 18%

You can argue speeds vs. configuration, but there's no way the homebuilt fatality rate is seven times higher.

Ron Wanttaja


Nice write up, well done.
 
Always appreciate your work Ron.
Thank you!
 
Ron will tell us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.. I have the utmost respect for his work...:yes:....

Oh, yeah...no pressure. :)

Last summer I was asked to do an analysis of Piper Cherokee accidents, similar to what I've done on the homebuilts. I ran a comparison of the accident causes for the most-common fixed-gear Cherokee models and the Cessna 172. And of course, I had homebuilt data already available.

This analysis covers only the 2001-2010 time period (ten years).

4.5% of the Cherokee accidents were due to maintenance error, vs. 2.3% of the Cessna 172s. For homebuilts, it was 4.2%...actually lower than the Cherokees.

The 172 and the Cherokees had Builder Error rates of 0.3% and 0.4%, respectively. Only a couple of cases each. Builder error for the homebuilts, of course, was much higher... 4.7%. For this ten-year period, that was less than ten accidents per year due to builder error.

I guess I could wax poetic on Builder Error, but maybe the best thing would be to just supply the list. The attached PDF is the accidents I identified as builder error from 1998 through 2012, plus the NTSB probable cause. The PC usually supplies enough data on the mistake the builder made, however, sometimes I came to the Builder Error conclusion based on the narrative of the accident.

Now to see if this is Halon or Gasoline. :)

Ron Wanttaja
 

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