Malaysian Airliner missing?

News is now reporting that plane climbed to FL450 after it lost contact, then possibly descended to 23,000.
 
jesse said:
Our government and our military has no qualms with shooting down an airliner if we determine that's less of a threat then letting it continue to fly. That is the point I was making.

If that 777 were to depart right now, headed for the United States from somewhere, and if we detected it which I think is quite likely we wouldn't hesitate to shoot it down regardless of the passengers.
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The point is that a wide-area weapon is still a danger because of the time it'd take to gather the information and make that decision. I would expect them to file as a Gulfstream or something like that as mentioned before. By the time we realized it wasn't a Gulfstream, they'd be plenty close to a city to do widespread damage.

However, let's say they didn't file (and since clearly they aren't idiots if they got this far, I doubt that). So we get an incoming radar target over the Atlantic, 250nm out - That's about 1/2 hour. ATC gets called to see if they're talking to the target - Figure 5 minutes before they sort out that the target is in fact incommunicado and unidentified. So, we scramble a couple of jets, who'll probably be armed this time. They arrive on-scene 20 minutes out. They see a bunch of Chinese hostages on board. They raise the pilots on guard, and the pilots say they've been hijacked by the stolen-passport guys who are requesting asylum in the US from (whatever) and they're wanting to land at JFK. The pilots also say that the hijackers have been non-violent and have not hurt or threatened anyone aboard, they just want asylum in the US.

This process takes several minutes. Comms are being listened to by the decision makers, probably including the President by now.

What call is made? On the one hand, they could take it at face value, and keep the escort on 'em the whole way in, and the terrorists blow the thing up on short final, taking out NYC.

On the other hand, maybe the call is made to "drop 'em" and the F-16's back off and stick a couple of missiles into the 777, which by now is over the Long Island Sound. Seems safe enough until we find out the hard way that there's a nuke/chem/bio weapon aboard and we just pulled the trigger.

Or, probably the most likely scenario, the F-16 pilots order the 777 to divert to Hanscom or Westover, and the bad guys detonate aloft while pretending to follow the order.

In all three cases, our human qualities would allow the bad guys to get close enough to use a wide-range weapon. We wouldn't let 'em get close to any buildings, but that doesn't mean they can't hurt us.
 
dans2992 said:
News is now reporting that plane climbed to FL450 after it lost contact, then possibly descended to 23,000.
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My theory.
Catastrophic electrical fire/smoke in the cockpit. Transponders/comms, etc failed rapidly. Crew incapacitated. Plane flying itself, climbing, descending and eventually down! Nothing nefarious, no cockpit takeover, no suicide. Nothing but a tragic accident. It's in the Indian Ocean:sad:.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Iirc Spot uses the older not so good Globalstar and the Delorme tracker is on Iridium. The Delorme is more money but compared to a 777 a couple of dozen of either is not relevant price wise.
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Glabal star has got it's game together now. I still have my handheld iridium but both the boats I fish on have built in global Starr's and they work just as well now. They sent up alot more satellites in the last 2-3 years. 5 years ago they were complete garbage!!
 
redtail said:
My theory.
Catastrophic electrical fire/smoke in the cockpit. Transponders/comms, etc failed rapidly. Crew incapacitated. Plane flying itself, climbing, descending and eventually down! Nothing nefarious, no cockpit takeover, no suicide. Nothing but a tragic accident. It's in the Indian Ocean:sad:.
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For all the conspiracy theories out there, you may be right. Anybody know how secure the cockpits are on a foreign carrier?
 
redtail said:
My theory.
Catastrophic electrical fire/smoke in the cockpit. Transponders/comms, etc failed rapidly. Crew incapacitated. Plane flying itself, climbing, descending and eventually down! Nothing nefarious, no cockpit takeover, no suicide. Nothing but a tragic accident. It's in the Indian Ocean:sad:.
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Probably what actually happened. Let's just hope they can find the thing to provide some closure.
 
JB1842 said:
For all the conspiracy theories out there, you may be right. Anybody know how secure the cockpits are on a foreign carrier?
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Apparently not that secure if you mix the MH370 co-pilot and a couple of Aussie women.
 
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flyingcheesehead said:
The point is that a wide-area weapon is still a danger because of the time it'd take to gather the information and make that decision.



.
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If, and that is at this point, a big if, the plane was indeed hijacked for nefarious purposes, Israel has much more to be concerned about than we do. I would think at this time they are on a very high alert.
 
redtail said:
My theory.
Catastrophic electrical fire/smoke in the cockpit. Transponders/comms, etc failed rapidly. Crew incapacitated. Plane flying itself, climbing, descending and eventually down! Nothing nefarious, no cockpit takeover, no suicide. Nothing but a tragic accident. It's in the Indian Ocean:sad:.
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Now that this 45,000 climb is being reported, I would agree with redtail... The plane wondered up and down looking for a sweet spot in the stability range of the 777 airframe and continued on following the heading last entered in the FMS till the go juice ran out..:sad:
 
That would have been a helluva ride for the pax.

If bodies are found, I wonder how many last letters will be found with them.
 
redtail said:
My theory.
Catastrophic electrical fire/smoke in the cockpit. Transponders/comms, etc failed rapidly. Crew incapacitated. Plane flying itself, climbing, descending and eventually down! Nothing nefarious, no cockpit takeover, no suicide. Nothing but a tragic accident. It's in the Indian Ocean:sad:.
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You forgot about the ninja pirate aliens.
 
I can say this. If the airplane was taken for such nefarious purposes as have been suggested, the Intel community doesn't seem to worked up about it. They are not even briefing the disappearance, let alone telling us to be on the lookout for rogue wide-body jets attacking the US.
 
Matthew said:
That would have been a helluva ride for the pax.



If bodies are found, I wonder how many last letters will be found with them.
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If cabin was de pressurized, I'd say none. They'd all be dead.

If they were conscious for multiple hours and knew they were in trouble enough to write these letters, someone would break down the cockpit door and try to steer the plane towards safety, wouldn't they?
 
dans2992 said:
If cabin was de pressurized, I'd say none. They'd all be dead.

If they were conscious for multiple hours and knew they were in trouble enough to write these letters, someone would break down the cockpit door and try to steer the plane towards safety, wouldn't they?
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Regardless.. it would have been the longest 5 hours of those peoples lives...:eek:
 
Fearless Tower said:
I can say this. If the airplane was taken for such nefarious purposes as have been suggested, the Intel community doesn't seem to worked up about it. They are not even briefing the disappearance, let alone telling us to be on the lookout for rogue wide-body jets attacking the US.
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Or they simply don't have enough data yet.

Separate question - is the CVR a 2 hour recording model? If this plane flew for 4 hours & the unit were not shut off, the CVR may be less than useful in determining what happened at time of disappearance.
 
Climb to FL450 could have been an intentional climb and vent in the event of an out-of-control in-cabin/flight deck fire. -or- a fight for control of the flight deck.

From there... ? maybe it didn't work so well... or Flight Deck O2 was non-functional.

Gosh - who knows?
 
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N801BH said:
Now that this 45,000 climb is being reported, I would agree with redtail... The plane wondered up and down looking for a sweet spot in the stability range of the 777 airframe and continued on following the heading last entered in the FMS till the go juice ran out..:sad:
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I'd have to say this is highly unlikely. Why would the xpndr fail without the FMS failing? If the FMS was working then the airplane is VERY capable. It would not wander flight levels trying to find a sweet spot or anything like that. The FMS (FMC/CDU) can be programed to cross waypoints at speed and altitudes from take off. As such if this were the case that the plane continued to function with everyone on board incapacitated, the airplane would hit all those waypoints at the speed and altitudes in the FMS (FMC/CDU). Eventually it would get to it's predetermined TOD would possibly descend from there.

If this was to be setup then it would function just fine without the crew. It is commonly setup on long flights. I do not see this being a possible scenario. Especially considering having such a selective failure as only the tcas failing. Seems highly unlikely that it alone would fail.
 
Engine said:
I'd have to say this is highly unlikely. Why would the xpndr fail without the FMS failing? If the FMS was working then the airplane is VERY capable. It would not wander flight levels trying to find a sweet spot or anything like that. The FMS (FMC/CDU) can be programed to cross waypoints at speed and altitudes from take off. As such if this were the case that the plane continued to function with everyone on board incapacitated, the airplane would hit all those waypoints at the speed and altitudes in the FMS (FMC/CDU). Eventually it would get to it's predetermined TOD would possibly descend from there.

If this was to be setup then it would function just fine without the crew. It is commonly setup on long flights. I do not see this being a possible scenario. Especially considering having such a selective failure as only the tcas failing. Seems highly unlikely that it alone would fail.
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Depending on the severity of the fire/ damage/failure, the FMS might direct some actions while having others off line......

In this case. all bets are off...:redface:
 
Norman said:
If, and that is at this point, a big if, the plane was indeed hijacked for nefarious purposes, Israel has much more to be concerned about than we do. I would think at this time they are on a very high alert.
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Israel has a 24/7 CAP, F-15 are always airborne there. Israel as always is very well prepared for this eventuality.
 
Engine said:
I'd have to say this is highly unlikely. Why would the xpndr fail without the FMS failing? If the FMS was working then the airplane is VERY capable. It would not wander flight levels trying to find a sweet spot or anything like that. The FMS (FMC/CDU) can be programed to cross waypoints at speed and altitudes from take off. As such if this were the case that the plane continued to function with everyone on board incapacitated, the airplane would hit all those waypoints at the speed and altitudes in the FMS (FMC/CDU). Eventually it would get to it's predetermined TOD would possibly descend from there.

If this was to be setup then it would function just fine without the crew. It is commonly setup on long flights. I do not see this being a possible scenario. Especially considering having such a selective failure as only the tcas failing. Seems highly unlikely that it alone would fail.
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FMS rarely makes speeds and altitudes that are in the box without airspeed intervention or use of speed brakes - both of which require human activation.
 
Art VanDelay said:
FMS rarely makes speeds and altitudes that are in the box without airspeed intervention or use of speed brakes - both of which require human activation.
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In a descent more than a climb yes. Even then it is not incredibly off. +/-1000 ft to 2000 ft max I would say. The airspeed +/- 20. My experience is limited to simulators and cbt's but the vnav logic is the same through and I doubt there is much difference in real performance. Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
Engine said:
In a descent more than a climb yes. Even then it is not incredibly off. +/-1000 ft to 2000 ft max I would say. The airspeed +/- 20. My experience is limited to simulators and cbt's but the vnav logic is the same through and I doubt there is much difference in real performance. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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Well the ceiling for the 777 is 43100' why would anyone have programmed the box for level 450 ?
 
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Art VanDelay said:
Well the ceiling for the 777 is 43100' why would anyone have programmed the box for level 450 ?
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If the oxygen in the passenger compartment could be turned off, maybe they did so and de-pressurized so as not to have to deal with the pax for the rest of the flight.
 
dans2992 said:
If the oxygen in the passenger compartment could be turned off, maybe they did so and de-pressurized so as not to have to deal with the pax for the rest of the flight.
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If you de pressurize the cabin it very quickly becomes ambient air temperature, effectively freezing them to death and yourself too unless youre dressed for -60.
 
On 3/7/14 flight 370, a 777, went missing. Notice that the date says look for three sevens: 3/7/7+7. And the flight was also a 3, a 7, and a 0 to show that it went missing.

And seven days later is Pi day, 3/14. And the first time 7 shows up in the decimal equivalent of Pi is in the 14th place.

This is at least as meaningful as anything else we've heard so far.
 
Your post was number 707 of this thread
 
tinerj said:
On 3/7/14 flight 370, a 777, went missing. Notice that the date says look for three sevens: 3/7/7+7. And the flight was also a 3, a 7, and a 0 to show that it went missing.



And seven days later is Pi day, 3/14. And the first time 7 shows up in the decimal equivalent of Pi is in the 14th place.



This is at least as meaningful as anything else we've heard so far.
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You sure got that right!
 
Do you know what 707 is upside down?
 
N801BH said:
I am not sure the software would even let you enter FL450...:dunno:..:no:
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I'm fairly certain it does. I know 100% the 767 series allows it. I am not 100% sure on the 777 but I'm sure Art can confirm. I am fairly certain the MCP on the 777 will allow you to enter an altitude above the service ceiling.

Why would someone enter 450 into the FMC? Could be an error but I am not 100% sure that it the airplane actually went to FL450. I mean how many of these are reputable sources? I am skeptical of this information as it hasn't been verified. All I see is a post from someone saying the news now reports the plane went to FL450. Until something that has been quadrupal verified - not by news agencies - by official government agencies, the airline, Boeing, RR or someone of that caliber.
 
OK, I've been reading this thread for as long as it's been going on, and I've got to put in my two cents.

I read a short story years ago where a guy bribed a pilot to fly a plane, and once they were at altitude, he was to disable the pressurization and oxygen systems.

He flew the plane to an "off the grid" airport with a bunch of dead, frozen passengers that were then "harvested" for their organs.

Yea, I got my tin hat on.:wink2:
 
If the CVR is only capable of two hours of recording, critical info may be lost in this case...
 
tinerj said:
On 3/7/14 flight 370, a 777, went missing. Notice that the date says look for three sevens: 3/7/7+7. And the flight was also a 3, a 7, and a 0 to show that it went missing.

And seven days later is Pi day, 3/14. And the first time 7 shows up in the decimal equivalent of Pi is in the 14th place.

This is at least as meaningful as anything else we've heard so far.
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makes more sense than this scene at the Kuala Lumpur airport:

"The witch-doctor, or bomoh, who even claimed he was invited by Malaysia’s top leaders, used bamboos as binocular and looked into a fish trap hook to “locate” the missing plane on Sunday. He professed to his audience that the plane was lost on land inhabited by elves"
 
If this is true, and I hope to god that it isn't, we are in big trouble. I say this not as a citizen of this country, but as a person of this earth.
 
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