Auto Fuel STC update

Tom-D said:
There is no such thing as the old STC, the STC was simply updated. The 337 filed way back when is still in the history file for the aircraft but as is, is not in compliance with out stickers.
So I can't run auto, big deal. but if the STC is valid it must be in compliance for the aircraft to be airworthy.
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Tom, I hate to say this but you sound like the computer in that old Star Trek episode that Spock tricked with a logic paradox into burning it's circuits up. :rolleyes:
 
I have been told by a DME that if you add a STC with a 337 you must remove it with a 337, is that true? It was part of a mock examination.
 
Silvaire said:
Tom, I hate to say this but you sound like the computer in that old Star Trek episode that Spock tricked with a logic paradox into burning it's circuits up. :rolleyes:
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Well, you explain it to the folks.
 
Luvrv8 said:
I have been told by a DME that if you add a STC with a 337 you must remove it with a 337, is that true? It was part of a mock examination.
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That's what I was taught, It is a modification to the modified aircraft to return it to its original condition.
 
Thanks guys. He did make me sweat it out for a bit before telling me the answer.
 
Tom-D said:
I will not use home made stickers simply because the new paper work for the revised STC is different than the old in its wording for the use of the auto fuel that is in use now.
I don't really care if that is legal or not, hokey looking stickers won't be placed on this aircraft. It will be correct or it won't be at all.
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Ah. I thought we were simply discussing what's legal. I didn't realize there were other (aesthetic) issues in play.

So, let me try to recap:
  1. You don't have the old stickers, and you don't have the original STC installation instructions, so you don't have the exact wording for the placards. Thus, (setting aside the aesthetic issue) you cannot fabricate new stickers because you don't know the exact wording to use, correct?
  2. The new wording is not an option, because the $40 to buy the updated STC has not been spent, correct?

Tom-D said:
The original STC was completed a longtime ago the 337 was recorded then. When I recovered the wings the stickers were removed with the old covers. I did not suspect there would be any problem getting new ones.
Any STC that is not in compliance with its installation instructions is not legal.
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If #1 above is true, then I repeat my question from before:

How would an IA be able to confirm the STC was correctly installed (i.e., the stickers installed are correct), if there are no installation instructions or instructions for continued airworthiness in the aircraft records that specify either a sticker part number or actual wording that the IA could verify?

To put it a different way: How would you have confirmed the STC was in compliance with its installation instructions if you had performed an annual on this plane prior to the original wing covers and stickers being removed?
 
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Jim_R said:
Ah. I thought we were simply discussing what's legal. I didn't realize there were other (aesthetic) issues in play.

Legal is what we do. so no ho-made stickers

So, let me try to recap:
  1. You don't have the old stickers,

    I have one.

    and you don't have the original STC installation instructions,

    I have several copies of the old installation instructions. But not the Original for this aircraft. They were all worded the same.

    so you don't have the exact wording for the placards.

    yes, see above.

    Thus, (setting aside the aesthetic issue) you cannot fabricate new stickers because you don't know the exact wording to use, correct?

    No, I can't make stickers, but they have a EAA part number and I can't make exact duplications imbossed on metal.

  2. The new wording is not an option, because the $40 to buy the updated STC has not been spent, correct?

The new STC package is on the way, I felt like I was buying some thing I would never use, Oh Well

If #1 above is true, then I repeat my question from before:

How would an IA be able to confirm the STC was correctly installed (i.e., the stickers installed are correct), if there are no installation instructions or instructions for continued airworthiness in the aircraft records that specify either a sticker part number or actual wording that the IA could verify?

To put it a different way: How would you have confirmed the STC was in compliance with its installation instructions if you had performed an annual on this plane prior to the original wing covers and stickers being removed?
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Good question, How many A&P-IAs would even try? How many A&P-IAs have lost their IA over less? I have been thru the post accident investigation, it isn't a nice experience, I'm still an A&P-IA because I nit pick.
 
Tom-D said:
Good question, How many A&P-IAs would even try? How many A&P-IAs have lost their IA over less? I have been thru the post accident investigation, it isn't a nice experience, I'm still an A&P-IA because I nit pick.
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It's still a serious question. I own an old plane (aren't almost all of 'em?), and there are a variety of STCs on it, and I've added a couple more. I don't think I'm in the situation where I can't verify that my STCs are properly installed and/or meet the continued airworthiness requirements, but next annual I'm probably going to go back and re-check, for funsies.

But this situation illustrates how easy it might be to find an old plane where it's at least impractical, if not impossible, to absolutely verify compliance with an STC's installation instructions.

I would also still be quite interested to know the exact installation instructions for the original STC, if you'd be willing to share them.
 
Jim_R said:
, if you'd be willing to share them.
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I'm not sure if it is prudent to copy and post to a public web page the intellectual property of another.

You can obtain the paper work on any STC that is still being supported by its holder. That is If it was properly obtained and installed on the "N" number you have. But as the EAA has done, they may charge for the replacement paper work.
 
Jim_R said:
I would also still be quite interested to know the exact installation instructions for the original STC, if you'd be willing to share them.
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Not the original STC, but here is one: EAA auto fuel STC

[FONT=arial,helvetica]If you have any questions on the STC application form, or technical questions, please email membership@eaa.org

[/FONT]
New Unleaded Avfuel Approved for use by EAA Supplemental Type Certificate Holders

EAA, The Leader in Recreational Aviation, is issuing a service bulletin to the thousands of aircraft owners who hold EAA Supplemental Type Certificates (STCs), permitting use of auto fuel in their aircraft's powerplants and airframes. That bulletin is being issued after the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) approved the introduction of unleaded 82UL aviation fuel.
The 82UL avfuel qualifies under the specifications allowed under EAA's STC. FAA approved the inclusion of this fuel in the STCs because of EAA's extensive testing with auto fuels and the new 82UL, including in such vital areas as volatility. 82UL has a lower volatility requirement than auto fuel, which would put it well within the limits covered by EAA's STC.
"The new unleaded fuel is part of the effort to remove leaded fuels from aircraft use, mostly because of environmental reasons," said Earl Lawrence, EAA Vice President of Government Relations. "Around the world, nations have banned or are banning the sale of leaded fuels. Therefore, refiners are eliminating or reducing production of those fuels. EAA has been extensively involved in the development of 82UL, so that pilots of smaller aircraft would have an unleaded option as the fuels are developed."
EAA's service bulletin reminds STC holders that current fueling placards must be replaced by Aug. 1, 2000, with revised placards which remind aircraft fuelers of allowable fuels for those airplanes. The placards, which cost $5.00 each (including shipping), are available through EAA by calling 920-426-4843 or via e-mail at STC@eaa.org. The full text of FAA's Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin will be posted as soon as it is published.
[FONT=arial,helvetica]

[/FONT]
 
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RotorAndWing said:
Not the original STC, but here is one: EAA auto fuel STC

[FONT=arial,helvetica]If you have any questions on the STC application form, or technical questions, please email membership@eaa.org

[/FONT]
New Unleaded Avfuel Approved for use by EAA Supplemental Type Certificate Holders

EAA, The Leader in Recreational Aviation, is issuing a service bulletin to the thousands of aircraft owners who hold EAA Supplemental Type Certificates (STCs), permitting use of auto fuel in their aircraft's powerplants and airframes. That bulletin is being issued after the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) approved the introduction of unleaded 82UL aviation fuel.
The 82UL avfuel qualifies under the specifications allowed under EAA's STC. FAA approved the inclusion of this fuel in the STCs because of EAA's extensive testing with auto fuels and the new 82UL, including in such vital areas as volatility. 82UL has a lower volatility requirement than auto fuel, which would put it well within the limits covered by EAA's STC.
"The new unleaded fuel is part of the effort to remove leaded fuels from aircraft use, mostly because of environmental reasons," said Earl Lawrence, EAA Vice President of Government Relations. "Around the world, nations have banned or are banning the sale of leaded fuels. Therefore, refiners are eliminating or reducing production of those fuels. EAA has been extensively involved in the development of 82UL, so that pilots of smaller aircraft would have an unleaded option as the fuels are developed."
EAA's service bulletin reminds STC holders that current fueling placards must be replaced by Aug. 1, 2000, with revised placards which remind aircraft fuelers of allowable fuels for those airplanes. The placards, which cost $5.00 each (including shipping), are available through EAA by calling 920-426-4843 or via e-mail at STC@eaa.org[/COLOR]"]STC@eaa.org. The full text of FAA's Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin will be posted as soon as it is published.
[FONT=arial,helvetica]

[/FONT]
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That is what i responded to when I got the response in post 1.

I was thinking 5 bucks, sure, but it is $40 and a new package.
 
Should we take this around the track again?

When the STC is installed, doesn't the stickers become required Placards? Just like the compass correction card?
 
...and once again - you can print your own replacement stickers. You personally choose not to and that is fine but it doesn't mean that no one else can if that's the way they want to deal with it. In your case you paid the forty bucks - end of story.
 
Silvaire said:
...and once again - you can print your own replacement stickers. You personally choose not to and that is fine but it doesn't mean that no one else can if that's the way they want to deal with it. In your case you paid the forty bucks - end of story.
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Notice the STC says "No later than August 31,2001, replace the previous installed placards with revised fuel placards which specifically state"

It does not say "replace with part number xxxxx" or does it say "you must use only EAA supplied placards".

It only states (clearly) to replace the placards with ones of specific language.
 
Tom-D said:
I'm not sure if it is prudent to copy and post to a public web page the intellectual property of another.

You can obtain the paper work on any STC that is still being supported by its holder. That is If it was properly obtained and installed on the "N" number you have. But as the EAA has done, they may charge for the replacement paper work.
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I'm not exactly sure what copyrightable or trademarkable information might be in the instructions for how to apply a sticker--you could partially redact the exact wording for the stickers or the exact part numbers, if that's what you're concerned about--but I won't push it if you're not comfortable sharing.

Just seems like the whole crux of this discussion hinges on the wording of those instructions, so it'd be informative to know what they are. I'm not asking for anything that would allow me to fraudulently modify my aircraft, or start selling my own STC.
 
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Silvaire said:
...and once again - you can print your own replacement stickers. You personally choose not to and that is fine but it doesn't mean that no one else can if that's the way they want to deal with it. In your case you paid the forty bucks - end of story.
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And how do you get the updated paper work to go with the new placards? If you are going to update the stickers do it right and do the whole thing.
 
Tom-D said:
And how do you get the updated paper work to go with the new placards? If you are going to update the stickers do it right and do the whole thing.
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What "updated paperwork" I thought you just wanted to replace the existing placards that were either lost or destroyed. If you want an "updated" STC then I suppose you pay forty bucks but you certainly don't have to. Are you telling us that your existing STC installation has been voided? :confused:
 
Silvaire said:
What "updated paperwork" I thought you just wanted to replace the existing placards that were either lost or destroyed. If you want an "updated" STC then I suppose you pay forty bucks but you certainly don't have to. Are you telling us that your existing STC installation has been voided? :confused:
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All I want to start was the new stickers, but you can't buy just the stickers. you get all or nothing.

We will see what arrives.

If you are confused try reading the EAA web site or call them.

I did.
 
I think we all understand:

- Original STC had "Sticker A" wording.
- Revised STC had "Sticker B" wording.
- You wanted to get replacement "Sticker A"s to match original STC
- EAA no longer stocks "Sticker A".
- To get "Sticker B", you pay $40 for the revised STC.

The only outstanding question is: Was there another legal option for replacing Sticker A?

You appear convinced there was not. Others on the thread don't seem so sure.

Seems like it comes down to exactly what the original STC installation instructions / instructions for continued airworthiness specifically state, which only you are privy to.

Not sure what calling the EAA would do to resolve that, since they apparently no longer make the original version of the STC available.
 
Jim_R said:
I think we all understand:

- Original STC had "Sticker A" wording.
- Revised STC had "Sticker B" wording.
- You wanted to get replacement "Sticker A"s to match original STC
- EAA no longer stocks "Sticker A".
- To get "Sticker B", you pay $40 for the revised STC.

The only outstanding question is: Was there another legal option for replacing Sticker A?

You appear convinced there was not. Others on the thread don't seem so sure.

Seems like it comes down to exactly what the original STC installation instructions / instructions for continued airworthiness specifically state, which only you are privy to.

Not sure what calling the EAA would do to resolve that, since they apparently no longer make the original version of the STC available.
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And now you know why when you buy a used aircraft and take it to a different A&P-IA for the next annual you pay $$$$$ to get it signed off.
 
Tom-D said:
All I want to start was the new stickers, but you can't buy just the stickers. you get all or nothing.

We will see what arrives.

If you are confused try reading the EAA web site or call them.

I did.
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What is the reason you so dearly want the "new" stickers? If it were me I'd be perfectly happy with the "old" stickers which I would reproduce myself if necessary. I have the STC for my own airplane and see no reason to "upgrade" it. :dunno:
 
Silvaire said:
What is the reason you so dearly want the "new" stickers? If it were me I'd be perfectly happy with the "old" stickers which I would reproduce myself if necessary. I have the STC for my own airplane and see no reason to "upgrade" it. :dunno:
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Good, Go for it.
 
Tom-D said:
And now you know why when you buy a used aircraft and take it to a different A&P-IA for the next annual you pay $$$$$ to get it signed off.
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I've bought the used plane and gone through the paperwork reviews. That's not a mystery to me.

I'm just trying to follow in your footsteps on this specific situation. I still don't understand your rationale, and am trying to figure out what I'm missing.

So if you magically had some extra stickers lying around from the original version of the STC, would you have used them on this plane and been done?

Or is your position that the original version of the STC is no longer legal, for this plane or any other plane with the original STC installed?

I'm trying to figure out if the problem is that there's something special about the original stickers such that only those would be legal (thus my curiosity about the installation wording), or if the problem is that the original STC has somehow become invalid so neither the original stickers nor any facsimiles thereof would be legal.

If the original version of the STC has become invalid, then I'd like to understand how that happened, and how an owner or an IA would be expected to learn that.
 
Jim_R said:
I've bought the used plane and gone through the paperwork reviews. That's not a mystery to me.

I'm just trying to follow in your footsteps on this specific situation. I still don't understand your rationale, and am trying to figure out what I'm missing.

So if you magically had some extra stickers lying around from the original version of the STC, would you have used them on this plane and been done?

Or is your position that the original version of the STC is no longer legal, for this plane or any other plane with the original STC installed?

I'm trying to figure out if the problem is that there's something special about the original stickers such that only those would be legal (thus my curiosity about the installation wording), or if the problem is that the original STC has somehow become invalid so neither the original stickers nor any facsimiles thereof would be legal.

If the original version of the STC has become invalid, then I'd like to understand how that happened, and how an owner or an IA would be expected to learn that.
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Let's recap and call it a day.

the EAA STC was updated by Service Bulletin, are service bulletin required in part 91? ,, No.

Can an owner make new stickers for the old STC that gave them part numbers? I guess you could argue owner produced parts, but would the FAA back you up if the new parts are available for 40 bucks? I doubt it.

So,,,,,,

I probably will never use auto fuel, but the next owner might, why not update the whole thing and be as legal as it gets?

WHY? when doing an annual isn't the proper installation of all the STC as important as the proper compliance of the ADs?

If you were the buyer of my aircraft wouldn't you ***** like crazy if the paper work on each STC isn't correct?
 
Norman said:
What I don't get is why such a big deal over $40.00.
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Is that what you believe this is about ?

If that is the case, then the whole process of proper maintenance and record keeping is lost on you.
 
Tom-D said:
Is that what you believe this is about ?

If that is the case, then the whole process of proper maintenance and record keeping is lost on you.
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:popcorn::popcorn:............................................:rolleyes:
 
Tom-D said:
The original STC was completed a longtime ago the 337 was recorded then. When I recovered the wings the stickers were removed with the old covers. I did not suspect there would be any problem getting new ones.
Any STC that is not in compliance with its installation instructions is not legal. it is that simple. Plus when the STC isn't legal the aircraft isn't airworthy because it is not in its properly altered condition.

I will not use home made stickers simply because the new paper work for the revised STC is different than the old in its wording for the use of the auto fuel that is in use now.
I don't really care if that is legal or not, hokey looking stickers won't be placed on this aircraft. It will be correct or it won't be at all.
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The point is this: If you don't do the upgrade, you don't need the new stickers. You can make your own using the verbiage included in the origional STC.
That said, if the upgrade is required via AD then the point is moot.
But as EAA needs funds, they want to sell the new stickers for $40 as an "upgrade" to the STC.
Had you not recovered the wings, and the stickers remained intact, would this even have crossed your mind?
 
Tom-D said:
Is that what you believe this is about ?

If that is the case, then the whole process of proper maintenance and record keeping is lost on you.
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Not very likely after 35 years of doing maintenance. I think you just want something to whine about.
 
Tom-D said:
Can an owner make new stickers for the old STC that gave them part numbers?
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So to recap, you don't want to use homemade stickers because the old ones had a part number therefore you don't think it's legal to make your own. Others here have a different opinion. Does that sum up the whole thread?
 
Tom-D said:
Is that what you believe this is about ?

If that is the case, then the whole process of proper maintenance and record keeping is lost on you.
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$40.00, a half hour's work filing a 337, and you've solved the problem. Oh; and 49 cents for a stamp.
 
Everskyward said:
So to recap, you don't want to use homemade stickers because the old ones had a part number therefore you don't think it's legal to make your own. Others here have a different opinion. Does that sum up the whole thread?
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Opinions…. isn't that the always the case in this internet web page ?
 
The $40 package arrived today with more than I expected included.
Two new STCs neither of which was installed on any 337 on file with the FAA. So, I update that to get legal.
A new Flight Manual supplement to e carried with the aircraft.
Two new Placards (metal with imprinted black letters). No way I ( or any one here) could produce them as nice.
The owners pamphlet that includes a great read on Auto fuels and their testing.

In addition I looked up the 337 filed in 1984 ( SE693GL & SA 762GL) to install the EAA auto gas STC and find it was prior to the Engine up grade to the 0-300-D So that 337 does not apply the STC to my engine.

Plus the two STC numbers that are now in effect are different, (SA01944CH & SE01943CH) so this whole chase ends up placing a new 337 on the aircraft/engine to make this legal.
 
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Tom-D said:
... Two new Placards (metal with imprinted black letters). No way I ( or any one here) could produce them as nice...
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Gosh where's my checkbook, I just gotta have a set of those.
 
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