Buying A Plane That Hasn't Flown In A Year

[brianwallis]

I typically don't pull a jug on an airplane for a prebuy UNLESS like was stated - has not flown in a long time. Then if the owner does not want it pulled, I advise the buyer to look somewhere else because the owner is clearly worried about something and possibly trying to hide something. It's a buyers market, no need to mess with something that could bite you for 20k. The smart buyers do a full annual (it's usually transferred to the real log books after the sale). Then the smart buyer knows exactly what they are getting. It's easy to do, cheap insurance and can save you 20k, what's not to love?
Best,
Brian

 

[timwinters]

Then if the owner does not want it pulled, I advise the buyer to look somewhere else because the owner is clearly worried about something and possibly trying to hide something.

Well, that would be bad advice and bullsh*t.

As others have said, it has more to do with:

I would never let someone pull a cylinder as part of a prebuy due to the risk of maintenance error.

Nobody who has no financial interest in my plane is going to do half-assed heart surgery on it. Especially since a legitimate prebuy should be done by an A&P that the seller doesn't know...no unknown entity would ever be allowed to pull a jug on my aircraft.

But, hey, advise your buyers in any way you want to but you're simply not doing them a service by advising them to do things that most educated sellers won't allow.

 

[brianwallis]

Well, that would be bad advice and bullsh*t.

As others have said, it has more to do with:



Nobody who has no financial interest in my plane is going to do half-assed heart surgery on it. Especially since a legitimate prebuy should be done by an A&P that the seller doesn't know...no unknown entity would ever be allowed to pull a jug on my aircraft.

But, hey, advise your buyers in any way you want to but you're simply not doing them a service by advising them to do things that most educated sellers won't allow.

That's the great thing about a free country. I can't make you do anything Mr Tim Winters. There are various financial and life risks associated with buying an airplane. I can only advise and don't get in the middle of the business deal. I'm an AP/IA that does this on a regular basis, not a desk jockey. There is no need to use profanity nor for me to stoop to that level. A professional typically uses only language they would use in front of their mother. It's such a buyers market that I don't have to worry about people who hide things or won't permit things. If the seller won't let me pull a jug of an airplane that has not been flown in a loooooong time, I refuse to sign off on any inspections or recommendations and if the buyer buys it, they have no legal recourse against me and are stuck with a rather hefty bill if things go south after the purchase. It's a rather litigious society and you can't just assume everybody is good. If you don't mind, I'll not take any of your advice sir. The educated buyer does not have to worry about an "educated seller" as the educated buyer will already have everything set in motion the correct way. If those criteria are failed in any way shape or form, we take our bag of money and go elsewhere.
Best,
Brian ps... if anybody else sees any failed logic here please feel free to correct me. It's worked well for my entire career.

I must admit your tag line is catchy.... Can't say I'd hire any company that uses that for their logo though.

Tim Winters Airline: Cheerfully serving those stupid enough to fly with me.

 

[SoloEqs]

I have think that his price is high

That price isn't high.

That price is INSANE.

 

[SoloEqs]

And so has every engine in history.

Not the Wankels.

Just figured I'd throw that it.

And I would never allow anyone to pull a jug on a pre-buy. Plugs, sure.

 

[flyingmoose]

There are various financial and life risks associated with buying an airplane. I can only advise and don't get in the middle of the business deal.

Well there are risks with everything, and buying an a/c is no exception. If it sitting a year is too risky for you to say its ok without pulling a jug then you can advise your prospective buyer anyway you want. Maybe we are all wrong here, but I don't see many owners saying ok to that.

I'm an AP/IA that does this on a regular basis, not a desk jockey.

As is a good number of people here, so put the credential book away--its OK!

If the seller won't let me pull a jug of an airplane that has not been flown in a loooooong time, I refuse to sign off on any inspections or recommendations and if the buyer buys it, they have no legal recourse against me and are stuck with a rather hefty bill if things go south after the purchase.

There is really nothing to sign with a pre-buy. ITs really only a recommendation based on experience and research. You can buy an a/c with an engine that flys all the time and still have something happen to it. So pulling "one" jug is not going to really let you know anything. What if you pull a front jug, but the problem is on a rear lobe? You won't see it. So are we pulling two, or three? Heck just split the case while you are at it.

 

[timwinters]

A professional typically uses only language they would use in front of their mother.

And mom wouldn't take issue with what I said. She's been known to use a few choice words herself when the timing's right, and still does at 100 years-old.

I'll tell you what, I'll make you a deal, you refrain from lecturing me because I'm from a state/culture that's open, honest and tells it like it is and I'll refrain from lecturing you about being from a state/culture laden with people pretending to be something they're not.

 

[Brad Z]

Hey all -

Well, the guy showed up as scheduled - in a 4-door dually diesel truck with a 6" lift on it. Young guy, arrogant, bragging about not having to work or something and talking about "I only bought it to impress girls...bla bla bla". I knew it wasn't going to go well.

He said he can "splash some water on it and get a fresh annual and sell it all day long for $60k". My mechanic was with me, we disagree. The plane was pretty nice - but probably worth around $35k. I didn't even bother making an offer. I don't want to partner with him and I don't want to try and get somebody to come down 50% off of their price.

So........I don't want to hijack this forum so I'll post a new topic related to the Grumman Cheetah/Tiger. It has always been my "plan B" if I couldn't find something local with a hanger.

Thanks for all of your help!!!

That was an easy decision. Good luck on your search.

 

[Henning]

If you won't let the jug on a Lycoming that has sat over a year be pulled for inspection, you can warranty the cam and replacement of for 50 hrs, either would be acceptable to me.

 

[Ted]

If you won't let the jug on a Lycoming that has sat over a year be pulled for inspection, you can warranty the cam and replacement of for 50 hrs, either would be acceptable to me.

And I would tell you to find another plane, too.

 

[Henning]

And I would tell you to find another plane, too.

Which I would unless the plane was priced as a runout, I've already had the experience of replacing Lycoming cams. This plane is priced as a premium plane for no apparent reason.

 

[Ted]

Not referring to the particular plane in question, but I'm saying if I were selling a plane, that would be my policy.

 

[Henning]

Not referring to the particular plane in question, but I'm saying if I were selling a plane, that would be my policy.

Your prerogative, personally I'd have no problem with them paying to pull a jug back, just don't pull the piston out. You can pull it back and drop it to get a borescope in there to examine. Actually, some engines you can snake down through the oil filler and get a good enough look to see what you need to see. Pulling a jug is really a rather minor procedure.

 

[Tom-D]

It is still a matter of material condition, what condition is the aircraft in, is the only issue at hand.

there is no magic number hours or time flown in the past, that will give you that.

 

[Henning]

It is still a matter of material condition, what condition is the aircraft in, is the only issue at hand.

there is no magic number hours or time flown in the past, that will give you that.

Correct, it requires inspection which for proper due diligence means looking at known issues. In these engines camshafts are known issues, so you either inspect, price as known bad, walk away, or gamble with $12,000s.

 

[Jeff K]

"Originally Posted by brianwallis View Post
Do a FULL annual for your prebuy and pull a cylinder to look at the lobes."

Few smart owners would allow you to do either. Not because they have anything to hide but rather because there is too much risk.

No to little risk if done correctly. The last two planes that is exactly what I did.

I'd just laugh if you asked me to pull a cylinder on a plane I had for sale. No effing way.

Which is fine. Being I had a reason to ask for the cylinder to be pulled... I'd be walking at that point.

And you'd never get permission from me to do an annual as a prebuy. You do a prebuy evaluation that includes everything on the annual's task list---and then some---but it's not an annual unless you buy the plane and it doesn't get logged unless you buy the plane.

I would never allow any logbook entries as a result of a prebuy. .

We agree on this. My prebuy's morph into an annual... but at the point of the "morph" nothing has been logged and at this point the deal is closed (although typically I hold back a little money for airworthy items.

I saw your back and forth with Brian, and having just come off a year long buying cycle there are alot of seller's like you... even a few brokers. Typically you get beat up pretty bad in the market... the ones I delt with who dug their feet in ended up selling for quite a bit less then what I was offering. And let's hope your not selling a twin else you'll end up selling it for parts.

It's just rough out there and no amount of hubris will change that.

 

[Tom-D]

Correct, it requires inspection which for proper due diligence means looking at known issues. In these engines camshafts are known issues, so you either inspect, price as known bad, walk away, or gamble with $12,000s.

Remember this aircraft has the H2AD that the cam can be seen with out pulling a cylinder, if you are going to inspect any engine know what you are looking at before you destroy the engine.

 

[Henning]

Remember this aircraft has the H2AD that the cam can be seen with out pulling a cylinder, if you are going to inspect any engine know what you are looking at before you destroy the engine.

I didn't know that R&Ring a jug halfway destroyed an engine, that's good to know. So does that mean that everyone should just buy a Factory New engine every time they have a valve problem that requires removal of a cylinder?

 

[Ted]

I saw your back and forth with Brian, and having just come off a year long buying cycle there are alot of seller's like you... even a few brokers. Typically you get beat up pretty bad in the market... the ones I delt with who dug their feet in ended up selling for quite a bit less then what I was offering. And let's hope your not selling a twin else you'll end up selling it for parts.

It's just rough out there and no amount of hubris will change that.

Right, but I also have no way of knowing whether you're actually going to buy the plane. There are way more tire kickers out there, and truthfully many of these planes are worth more as parts planes or that's their best fit anyway.

Now let's say you pull a cylinder and decide not to buy the plane. Presumably you also paid to put it back together, alternately you leave me a half disassembled airplane and I have to pay to reassemble it or else I have something worth even less. Even if you reassemble it, that means the cylinder has been off and back on (could have been done incorrectly), the through bolts have been re-torqued, etc. There are a lot of bad potential buyers out there.

As a seller, there's the potential upside in that you might buy the plane, but if you don't there are a lot of downsides. Now if you do compressions and find a low cylinder, that'd be different since it would need to get fixed anyway. But for just a look-see? No thanks. You could accomplish most of your goals with a borescope anyway.

I'm involved in a deal on acquiring a 310 that's sat for 5 years. Obviously the pre-buy is quite thorough. Some issues have been found and are being addressed. Logical.

 

[Jeff K]

Right, but I also have no way of knowing whether you're actually going to buy the plane. There are way more tire kickers out there,

I've shown you either a pre-approval letter or my bank statement showing the purchase is fully funded. We have a purchase contract in place, stating I'll pay for the costs associated with the pre-buy/jug removal and replacement. Some money is already in escrow.

If I have a reason to want to look at the cam, and you tell me no, you will know if I'm actually going to buy the plane. I won't be.

It's business and you are in good company. But that doesn't matter to me. I won't buy a plane from someone who won't let me inspect it (at my expense) so I know what I am buying. Those that do, about half, have gotten the sale. The other half had spalled cams, rust inside, etc etc.

It's worse in the twin market though. Alot of these twins aren't flying, some out sitting on a ramp, which really requires a closer inspection. If the plane is a regular flier, on oil analysis, I run my own check... I'm likely not going to be asking to pull a jug. I also tend to buy higher time engines so I know what I'm buying.

 

[Ted]

I've shown you either a pre-approval letter or my bank statement showing the purchase is fully funded. We have a purchase contract in place, stating I'll pay for the costs associated with the pre-buy/jug removal and replacement. Some money is already in escrow.

If I have a reason to want to look at the cam, and you tell me no, you will know if I'm actually going to buy the plane. I won't be.

It's business and you are in good company. But that doesn't matter to me. I won't buy a plane from someone who won't let me inspect it (at my expense) so I know what I am buying. Those that do, about half, have gotten the sale. The other half had spalled cams, rust inside, etc etc.

It's worse in the twin market though. Alot of these twins aren't flying, some out sitting on a ramp, which really requires a closer inspection. If the plane is a regular flier, on oil analysis, I run my own check... I'm likely not going to be asking to pull a jug. I also tend to buy higher time engines so I know what I'm buying.

I certainly respect your opinion, but I don't think we would've gotten that far since in initial discussions if you told me that you'd want to pull a cylinder I'd stop you right there. And if you sprung it on me after we'd gotten that far, I'd wonder what else you'd spring.

By the way, I'm not saying you're a bad buyer, just as I know you aren't saying I'm a bad seller. I'm just making my point that I have to figure out what's in my best interest, and I know that no matter what there's a probability less than 1 that you will buy the plane. By your text, it's about 50% on the would-be inspection. So it comes down to everyone's favorite question: "Do I fell lucky?"

 

[Jeff K]

By your text, it's about 50% on the would-be inspection. So it comes down to everyone's favorite question: "Do I fell lucky?"

No, it's if *I*, as the buyer, feel lucky buying your out of annual airplane by not doing a proper prebuy. I try to minimize the "luck" factor in any business deal. It's you, as the seller, who is the lucky one having gotten a free look at your cam and realized you have a potentially dangerous un-airworthy airplane on my dime. In fact, the seller I walked away from ended up repairing it a few months later and put the airplane back in annual.

I respect your opinion but I simply wouldn't buy an airplane unless I can do a proper due diligence. If I have reason to suspect there are cam issues, and the seller refuses to let me inspect it, I walk. There is a tremendous amount of junk out there and people knowingly selling it. Not saying that's you, but caveat emptor is the word any airplane buyer better understand.

 

[Tom-D]

I simply wouldn't buy an airplane unless I can do a proper due diligence.

Why should that require inspections beyond the requirements of airworthiness.

 

[Henning]

Why should that require inspections beyond the requirements of airworthiness.

Because Lycomings have a history of rusting cams that eat lobes if they have been sitting improperly pickled, that's a $12,000 expense for most people. Leaving a $12,000 question with a 'not sure' answer is not appropriate due diligence. If the buyer were a client of mine I'd advise to inspect the cam, price the plane as if they were going to overhaul in a month, or walk away.

If the deal was the deal in the OP, I'd tell him to walk away or offer $10k for half, and to make sure that his partner was solvent for his half of the engine repair.

 

[Tom-D]

Because Lycomings have a history of rusting cams that eat lobes if they have been sitting improperly pickled, that's a $12,000 expense for most people.

Knowing that, why would you buy any engine with that problem?

 

[Henning]

Knowing that, why would you buy any engine with that problem?

As long as it is priced accordingly, there is nothing that can't be fixed.

 

[Ted]

As long as it is priced accordingly, there is nothing that can't be fixed.

Until it happens again.

 

[Tom-D]

As long as it is priced accordingly, there is nothing that can't be fixed.

It always comes down to the price, and any tire kicker will use any excuse not to buy.

An ernest buyer will find a method of proving the material condition of the engine by other means.

Borescope the cylinders, flush the old oil out and replace will clean fresh oil, change the filter, run the engine using the schedule in the overhaul manual, drain the oil thru a clean white cloth and see what you get.

fly it see how it preforms.

Thousands of Lycomings have sat over a year and started and ran OK for many hours after with no problems.

 

[Henning]

Well, I gave the option earlier to warranty the cam for 50hrs. Typically cam spalling and evidence of a rusted cam will not be conclusive from an oil change and run for a an hour or two, they rarely last more than 50 if there is a problem. Just leave $12k in escrow and I'll fly it away. I bought my plane with engines that hadn't run in 12 years without doing anything, but it was priced accordingly. The plane in the OP is overpriced to begin with.

 

[rbridges]

let me ask a dumb question. If I were a seller and a potential buyer wanted to pull a jug to inspect the cam at his expense, wouldn't you want to know? Is there really that much risk?

not trying to stir the pot, but I know I'll be the seller one day.

 

[Henning]

let me ask a dumb question. If I were a seller and a potential buyer wanted to pull a jug to inspect the cam at his expense, wouldn't you want to know? Is there really that much risk?

No risk really, except that you could no longer claim it was a perfect gem if something was found lol. Most people prefer to live in denial.

 

[AggieMike88]

let me ask a dumb question. If I were a seller and a potential buyer wanted to pull a jug to inspect the cam at his expense, wouldn't you want to know? Is there really that much risk?

not trying to stir the pot, but I know I'll be the seller one day.

Instead of pulling the jug, why not use a really good borescope as Mike Busch suggests? From what I recall from his talk at AOPA summit, used properly you can tell as much or more as jug removal.

 

[rbridges]

Instead of pulling the jug, why not use a really good borescope as Mike Busch suggests? From what I recall from his talk at AOPA summit, used properly you can tell as much or more as jug removal.

I'm all for being conservative. I'm just trying to learn what's reasonable and what's overkill.

 

[timwinters]

let me ask a dumb question. If I were a seller and a potential buyer wanted to pull a jug to inspect the cam at his expense, wouldn't you want to know? Is there really that much risk?

not trying to stir the pot, but I know I'll be the seller one day.

A proper pre-buy should be performed by an A&P that has no allegiance to either the buyer or seller. i.e. a relatively unknown quantity. Would you really let an unknown quantity R&R a jug on your plane? To each his own but I certainly wouldn't. Don't really care if it costs me a sale, the risk isn't worth it.

But I don't have the OP's problem either. I don't have a Lycoming cam eater nor does my plane sit.

 

[Henning]

A proper pre-buy should be performed by an A&P that has no allegiance to either the buyer or seller. i.e. a relatively unknown quantity. Would you really let an unknown quantity R&R a jug on your plane? To each his own but I certainly wouldn't. Don't really care if it costs me a sale, the risk isn't worth it.

But I don't have the OP's problem either. I don't have a Lycoming cam eater nor does my plane sit.

Yes, R&Ring a jug is not freaking brain surgery. What would you do if you needed to swap a jug away from home, disassemble the plane and trailer it back to your mechanic, or fly your mechanic across the country to do the work?

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Why is pulling a jug such a big deal? It's done All the time. These engines are pretty simple and pulling a jug is a no brainer unless the one doing it is a real bumbler who should not be allowed near it in the first place.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

"Let me say this......about that" ( richard Nixon) the airplane is old, it probably was left outside a lot and it's priced incorrectly. It's way too much money. Old radios, interior........I'd walk.

 

[bnt83]

Why is pulling a jug such a big deal? It's done All the time. These engines are pretty simple and pulling a jug is a no brainer unless the one doing it is a real bumbler who should not be allowed near it in the first place.

Next thing you know they'll want to strip the aluminum prop to see how many dings are full of paint.

 

[Tom-D]

let me ask a dumb question. If I were a seller and a potential buyer wanted to pull a jug to inspect the cam at his expense, wouldn't you want to know? Is there really that much risk?

not trying to stir the pot, but I know I'll be the seller one day.

Yes there is, a buyer pulls a cylinder and sees a nit picking discrepancy, then simply leaves. the owner now must have the cylinder replaced at their expense.

That is why I sell the aircraft as is, where is, no warrantees implied or given. You can inspect the aircraft in my hangar, at your expense, and you will not remove any thing beyond what an annual will require.

I have known 3 aircraft that were flown away, disassembled and left for the owner to pay the expense of having the aircraft returned to service at very high rates.
Any smart seller will not allow this to happen to them.

and remember the sales agreement is only as good as the people signing it. The buyer can walk away and leave it to the seller at any time, then simply tell the seller to sue them. That becomes a loose loose situation for the seller every time.

 

[Jeff K]

Next thing you know they'll want to strip the aluminum prop to see how many dings are full of paint.

I realize you are kidding, but if you've got a prop you've purposely painted to hide dings.... (which is alot of paint) that might be a reasonable request. It's going to be pretty obvious and at that point I'm going to be wondering what else you've tried to hide.

Here is the thing about this thread. You've got real buyers and you've got tire-kickers. To the buyer's side it's their responsibility to be a solid funded buyer who knows what they want and can prove that to the seller. To the seller's side, it's to their responsibility to make sure they have a solid buyer, not a tire kicker, before anything is opened up. Both should agree on a price before the process is started and in writing.

A good buyer/seller does this through a contract (setting expectations) as well as escrows/deposits (managing risk).

As the buyer is paying for the pre-buy, they aren't going to do things unless they are needed. It's my role as a buyer to protect my interests yet also to be reasonable. I've had good luck with this approach and I've never regretted walking away from an irrational seller (and there are plenty out there).