Is screening for OSA a good thing for GA?

[denverpilot]

Damn, third year airline pilots get Three weeks ! I get five but then again nobody would want to be an airline pilot - right ?

Heh. I never said my current employer was generous. They were a tiny place, then they got bought by a giant who's shaking everyone out. Whatever. I'm going to the Bahamas early next year whether they like it or not. The "FU" fund is plenty big enough to walk.

Heck, sitting reserve in certain circumstances is a day you might get some stuff done, too. If we are talking pilots!

Not sure what pro pilot's days off have to do with Joe Blow normal guy you want to attract to aviation. Just more crap and hoops for them to jump through. Pro pilots have no choice. Well, unless they also have an adequate "FU fund" saved up. Heh.

Technically it was a pro crew flying late at night that started the whole mess, right? And a controller?

Not too many Private pilots are ever forced to fly when fatigued at strange hours unless they choose to. And if they're tired and choose to, they may die.

Here's a thought: I assume the frequency of OSA was as high in 1970 as today. Maybe take a few points off for higher obesity levels today.

Thousands of folks who were sleepy from it, if the assumption holds that there's similar numbers of "afflicted" people now as then, and they happily flew on bright sunny Saturdays around the patch and nothing bad happened. Maybe once in a while one would crash and we'd say "pilot error" and move on.

I'd like to say it adds significantly to aviation safety. But roughly 50% of the fatals will still be fuel exhaustion the year after this goes into effect. Next will be VFR into IMC. And so on down the standard list.

Huge cost and it'll fix what? 0.01% of crashes? And waste people's precious vacation days. They could probably use those better for mental health. Heh.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Saying pilots get away with flying under the influence of OSA is the same as saying pilots get away with flying drunk, so we shouldn't do anything about either. The only difference is social, drinking and driving/flying is shamed while being overweight is being a victim. Fatties and drunks have similar excuses, and both result from self discipline failures.

 

[denverpilot]

I didn't say they get away with anything. They have no idea and/or aren't impaired enough to take action. There's been probably hundreds of thousands "afflicted" for decades. They probably yawned and drank a lot of coffee.

This "fix" won't change the accident record even one percentage point.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[ClimbnSink]

Some of the effect will be more indirect. Pilots losing weight or getting cpap machines to skip the wraith, same as not drinking and driving not out of fear of crashing but because the penalty for getting caught is high. I've no doubt high functioning drunks and stoners can operate vehicles well into the upper middle of the competency curve. Chronic OSA types are doing the same, now they are being called on it. Whatever. Being heavy is terrible for health and if this helps usher fat shaming back in then it is a good thing.

 

[Henning]

I used to know a Dr, an AME even (a left over of the WWII generation and a QB ) who would roll out of his plane plastered. He also had a room full of rally trophies, he could tag wheels on the second of his prediction at the end of a flight where he had been constantly nipping away.

 

[bbchien]

Do you get more than two weeks of paid vacation per year? Because I don't and I've been in my industry for almost 20 years.

An extra once a year doc visit eats 10% of my paid time off and most useless middle managers won't do the paperwork to approve unpaid time off. They'll instead hide that you're gone if they're nice and you spend the day hoping the cell phone doesn't ring with someone asking, "when will you be back from lunch"?

We noticed Karen's folks were out of touch in this regard years ago too. They assumed employees still get to visit Docs as part of Sick time or something reasonable like back in their day. You asked many of your patients how much time they get off per year lately, Doc?

Sure have. You are well below average. Sorry. I don't suppose Colorado allows you to skip DL renewal because you have only two week's vaca....

Anyways, you're reaching the age that you will soon enough have to find a way to go. You'll visit the doc less, in total, if you go and get your chronic stuff dealt with, rather than neglected when the obesity, hypertension, CAD and Sleep Apnea all come crashing down together. "Scarcity" is no excuse.

And if they say you get two weeks, time to buck up the "FU" fund because this decade you're a gonna need it, that's a fact.

An no way is FAA gonna say, "he only has 2 weeks of vacation, so he's exempt.....". You sound like a 10 year old, for heaven's sake.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I didn't say they get away with anything. They have no idea and/or aren't impaired enough to take action. There's been probably hundreds of thousands "afflicted" for decades. They probably yawned and drank a lot of coffee.

This "fix" won't change the accident record even one percentage point.

I think it'll have an effect - But the majority of the effect won't be from getting people treated, it'll be from increasing the rate at which the pilot population shrinks. Who's gonna spend an extra 50% to get their pilot certificate? Not many. Nobody flies, nobody crashes. They'll be causing more car accidents instead, and there are enough of those that the increase won't even be noticed.

 

[Art VanDelay]

Maybe the lead FAA Flight Surgeon has stock in an LSA company ?

 

[willywildes]

I think we can all agree it's not about safety. Plain and simple politics, and money for AMEs. Always a crisis that the government wants to control, for your own good. The harder the government makes it to become a pilot the fewer pilots. The sooner they can get to user fees and really restrict the movement of people. For your own good, of course.

 

[ClimbnSink]

I think we can all agree it's not about safety. Plain and simple politics, and money for AMEs. Always a crisis that the government wants to control, for your own good. The harder the government makes it to become a pilot the fewer pilots. The sooner they can get to user fees and really restrict the movement of people. For your own good, of course.

No it is about safety. Safety trumps freedom in a dying empire. Granted this is a novel one, first empire with fat people breaking things just cause they are fat. Not saying your other points are wrong the man just isn't that organized and doesn't need to be as b'crat creep gets us all there eventually.

 

[asgcpa]

This is just an opinion poll, so no demands for facts, figures and citations required. The reason being, those facts aren't known yet.

The FAA wants to have AMEs to start requiring all pilots seeking a valid medical that have a BMI over 40 and eventually over 36, to go and get a sleep study done at certified sleep center to see if these pilots suffer from OSA. I'm told the study costs about $2000. If negative, the test results are fine and you get your medical until the next medical when you do it again. If you are positive, you must get treatment which usually involves buying a machine (not sure how much they cost) called CPAP and strapping it on your face at night to help you breath. If the treatment is proven successful, you get a SI and you can fly.

They want to do this because OSA causes sleep deprivation and medical studies have shown that sleep deprivation is cognitively impairing about the same as having .088 alcohol in your blood, so legally drunk. The 2012 Nall Report states that for 2010, 62%, or 856 accidents out a total of 1377 for the year, were caused by pilot error. These accidents resulted in 148 deaths.

The medical establishment also has good science that shows that if you have a BMI over 40, there is a 90% chance you suffer from OSA. If your over 36 BMI, I assume the likelihood of OSA is somewhat less, but still high. I don't know that number, but the point is, this is why the FAA is using BMI to select out the airmen that need testing. If you're over a BMI of 36, you likely suffer from OSA, if you suffer from untreated OSA, you're flying as though you were legally drunk and you very well may end up in one of those 62% of pilot error accidents.

The counter perspective to this is this- is this new requirement worth the potential damage to the pilot population and by extension, GA as a whole? Healthy, alert pilots are a good thing, but how many will see this as yet another obstacle and either quit flying, or never start in the first place? This is unknown and we won't know until after the mandate.

We know the pilot population is dwindling, pilots are flying less and less and as a result the cost of flying is going up. Rising costs cause more to quit. A vicious cycle. The way out of the cycle is more pilots. Pilots of all sizes.

Is some unknown potential reduction in total accidents (1377 for 2010) worth the unknown risk of further pilot population reduction at this time in America's GA history? Will overweight pilots gladly submit and get tested and treated, or quit? If they do quit, will the loss of these pilots in the population make a difference in cost to other pilots? Will the newly vetted pilot population stop making so many pilot errors that result in accidents? Will the skies be safer?

Nobody knows, that's why this is an opinion poll and nothing more.

I had a sleep study for OSA and I use a CPAP. Lost a lot of weight but still use CPAP. Don't want to go for another study. Figured I would use the machine,( it's habit forming), get the SI and that's it. Insurance pretty much pays for study and machine.

 

[TMetzinger]

After reading through the multiple threads:
I agree with Dr. Bruce that rulemaking MIGHT backfire.

But I also agree with folks that there needs to be a more open debate on the change, to address the cost issues (and some reasonable alternatives raised here).

 

[flyingcheesehead]

If it was about true safety, they'd change crew rest rules. They can look to the DOT for that, too, as the commercial drivers have had new (and far better) rules since 2004.

That'd make a WAY bigger difference than screening a few people for OSA.

 

[bbchien]

If it was about true safety, they'd change crew rest rules. They can look to the DOT for that, too, as the commercial drivers have had new (and far better) rules since 2004.

That'd make a WAY bigger difference than screening a few people for OSA.

I agree, but the guys with untreated SA get no effective rest no matter what the crew schedule.

They can't touch crew rest rules. Witness what the Senator from Fed X did to the limited crew reset reform - the cargo guys don't get the reform.

 

[denverpilot]

Sure have. You are well below average. Sorry. I don't suppose Colorado allows you to skip DL renewal because you have only two week's vaca....

Online renewal. All they want is their money. Seriously. Our renewal period used to be ten years. You should have seen my last DL photo by the time it was a decade old. You wouldn't have recognized me. I finally had to go in person this year. They take online reservations/appointments now too. It's on the way to the office. Ten minutes, in and out.

Now it's a six year renewal. They wanted more revenue. Still online. I believe no new photo required until I'm 60, which will be in 19 years. Last driving test was at 16, won't need that until 70 if I remember correctly.

So much for it being current photo ID or actually related to driving skill, eh? LOL. You even print your own temporary online at renewal time now. No photo. Just a piece of paper easily duplicated on any computer.

The reason of course is that it's all in the data terminal in the cop cars anyway. ScottM recently pointed that out in another thread that year stickers on license plates are antiquated and useless now. Just run the plate from the terminal.

Anyways, you're reaching the age that you will soon enough have to find a way to go. You'll visit the doc less, in total, if you go and get your chronic stuff dealt with, rather than neglected when the obesity, hypertension, CAD and Sleep Apnea all come crashing down together. "Scarcity" is no excuse.

Oh I'll go. I'm just pointing out that the people that run companies that send out monthly "wellness" newsletters, then turn around and offer only 80 hours of time off a year and wonder why their medical benny costs are rising. They truly are retarded I think. If they're not mentally deficient, the only other option is that they're malicious.

And if they say you get two weeks, time to buck up the "FU" fund because this decade you're a gonna need it, that's a fact.

I hear ya. That's why I'm putting up with the place. They're doing a good job of funding the FU account at least. . This company is third place in their industry by choice, that's for sure. Ha.

They'd shoot for fourth if they could, I swear. So far I haven't seen a single decision other than the bennies thing that would make them more profitable. We are about to rip out CentOS for RedHat for the only reason that they can have a vendor's throat to choke. No other reason. I'm not kidding. $125K a year in higher OPEX for no reasonable business purpose whatsoever. In their grand scheme of things, $125K isn't much but the lost productivity to at least three people to convert everything over is huge. And as a fiscal conservative, spending money where it's not going to make any ROI drives me batty. There won't be any incidents where RedHat will fix something and save the company $125K, let alone every year.

An no way is FAA gonna say, "he only has 2 weeks of vacation, so he's exempt.....". You sound like a 10 year old, for heaven's sake.

I'm not complaining. I'm just saying it ain't 1960 and Docs don't work weekends or do house calls much anymore. (Heck, you probably do. And yeah most probably review things on weekends just like any pro job. I'm talking office hours here.) K

aren was reading about "shared" Doc appointments this morning. Group style. They do take you for a quick private exam and then they stick all the people with the same symptoms in a big room and break the news to them as a group. LOL. Wow. You can bet the household nurse was loudly and vocally unimpressed with that idea. (Or I wouldn't have ever heard of it. She was saying unkind things to her iPad in the family room this morning. I always perl up when the nice person in the house starts cussing like a sailor. Heh.)

Luckily (ha!) I can go see the Doc any day after an overnight maintenance window. Haha. I'll be there on 4 hours or less of sleep but I can go. Flexible scheduling!!! Hahaha!!!

If it means anything, my new boss out of Florida was shocked they didn't merge us into the larger company's vacation bennies. But a powerless front line manager/supervisor being shocked is useless without action. I don't really give a crap that he's shocked. For all I know that could just be an act. Actions not words.

He's coming to town this week. I'll finally get to size him up and decide if I even want to work for him. His peers already ran off 11 people. We'll see if he has a brain and abilities to grow the business logically, or if he's a "company man" this week.

If he's a company man, maybe the 182 will wander eastward for a visit to Peoria with a stop in Lincoln to say hi to a few folks on it's national tour. Heh. FU account, activate! Consulting systems engineer, will travel.

But if he has a brain I'd rather sit here a while and grow the FU account some more. He's already shown signs of brain cells, including some good things related to time off that shall we say, won't be bothering the company bean counters but might mean I'm "busy" all day and difficult to reach.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

ScottM recently pointed that out in another thread that year stickers on license plates are antiquated and useless now. Just run the plate from the terminal.

It used to be a good reason to pull you over and see if anything else was out of order. Now, they've got systems on the cars that are recording every single license plate number that drives past, they're surely looking 'em up. They're working on a new law here stating how that data can be used and how long they're allowed to store it... Quite the potential privacy problem!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

They can't touch crew rest rules. Witness what the Senator from Fed X did to the limited crew reset reform - the cargo guys don't get the reform.

That's rather unfortunate. Ironically, it's the other way around in the world of ground pounders: The 2004 DOT rest rules don't apply to buses. So, on the ground, it seems the cargo is better protected than the people.

Still, how many crashes do we need to get crew rest rules changed? Apparently Colgan wasn't enough, or they did enough other things wrong that the fatigue issue could be minimized.

 

[Everskyward]

Still, how many crashes do we need to get crew rest rules changed? Apparently Colgan wasn't enough, or they did enough other things wrong that the fatigue issue could be minimized.

Tell pilots they can't commute or that they need to actually sleep during "rest" and that will cause an even bigger uproar.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Tell pilots they can't commute or that they need to actually sleep during "rest" and that will cause an even bigger uproar.

Believe me, there was a huge uproar in the trucking industry when the new rules came out... And when they quit fighting and got down to working within the new rules, a LOT of things changed for the better, and the sky did not fall. Uproar is manageable if you're really doing the right thing.

 

[Everskyward]

Believe me, there was a huge uproar in the trucking industry when the new rules came out... And when they quit fighting and got down to working within the new rules, a LOT of things changed for the better, and the sky did not fall. Uproar is manageable if you're really doing the right thing.

Good luck monitoring people's sleep. It's easier to monitor their BMI.

 

[RotorAndWing]

If it was about true safety, they'd change crew rest rules. They can look to the DOT for that, too, as the commercial drivers have had new (and far better) rules since 2004.

That'd make a WAY bigger difference than screening a few people for OSA.

14 CFR Part 117

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Good luck monitoring people's sleep. It's easier to monitor their BMI.

Heh... Touché!

However, you don't necessarily need to monitor their sleep, you just need to give them an opportunity to get a full night's sleep (8 hours), a shower and breakfast.

14 CFR Part 117

Getting there... I'd like it more if the forthcoming 117.25(e) would put something in about time spent transporting between the airport and the hotel. Truckers get 10 hours off, which is enough for a full night's sleep, shower and breakfast. Add in 20-30 minutes each way for transportation from/to the airport, it's not quite so easy.

 

[Henning]

Heh... Touché!

However, you don't necessarily need to monitor their sleep, you just need to give them an opportunity to get a full night's sleep (8 hours), a shower and breakfast.



Getting there... I'd like it more if the forthcoming 117.25(e) would put something in about time spent transporting between the airport and the hotel. Truckers get 10 hours off, which is enough for a full night's sleep, shower and breakfast. Add in 20-30 minutes each way for transportation from/to the airport, it's not quite so easy.

That's the entire issue behind OSA, you don't get a real sleep, ever.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Getting there... I'd like it more if the forthcoming 117.25(e) would put something in about time spent transporting between the airport and the hotel. Truckers get 10 hours off, which is enough for a full night's sleep, shower and breakfast. Add in 20-30 minutes each way for transportation from/to the airport, it's not quite so easy.

Transportation to and from is not considered "rest" and is not counted as such.

 

[Everskyward]

However, you don't necessarily need to monitor their sleep, you just need to give them an opportunity to get a full night's sleep (8 hours), a shower and breakfast.

Honestly I think a lot of the problem is that although pilots are required to receive 10 hour of rest before a duty period (there might be other permutations to that rule in 121 which I don't know about), it doesn't mean they are going to sleep during that time, especially if it's during the day. Truckers are away from home or interesting activities. They are also on more of a consistent schedule, at least as far as I can see. Also, pilots who commute in to their base use their "rest" to commute, since that travel is not required by the company and they are doing it on their own time. It's true that the rest rules could be improved but that wouldn't really cut down on abuse.

 

[Everskyward]

That's the entire issue behind OSA, you don't get a real sleep, ever.

Interestingly I just found out that two people I know use CPAP machines. One was explaining to me that before he used it he could sleep 8 hours and wake up feeling like he had been up all night.

 

[denverpilot]

Transportation to and from is not considered "rest" and is not counted as such.

But is often calculated under ideal conditions in summertime.

The airplane still leaves Cody, WY headed for Riverton, WY then DEN (okay old COEx route that may not exist anymore) at the same time every day whether it's sunny and the road to the hotel is plowed, or it 's -5F and the crew van takes an extra hour round-trip.

Truckers would have to log it under the new rules in June and stay shut down for an extra hour in the morning before departing.

 

[RotorAndWing]

But is often calculated under ideal conditions in summertime.

The airplane still leaves Cody, WY headed for Riverton, WY then DEN (okay old COEx route that may not exist anymore) at the same time every day whether it's sunny and the road to the hotel is plowed, or it 's -5F and the crew van takes an extra hour round-trip.

Truckers would have to log it under the new rules in June and stay shut down for an extra hour in the morning before departing.

I could care less what truckers rules are.

In aviation, transportation to and from hotel is not considered as rest.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Transportation to and from is not considered "rest" and is not counted as such.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but:

(e) No certificate holder may schedule and no flightcrew member may accept an assignment for any reserve or flight duty period unless the flightcrew member is given a rest period of at least 10 consecutive hours immediately before beginning the reserve or flight duty period measured from the time the flightcrew member is released from duty. The 10 hour rest period must provide the flightcrew member with a minimum of 8 uninterrupted hours of sleep opportunity.

Is the flight crew "released from duty" at the airport, or when they arrive at the hotel? I would have assumed the former.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Honestly I think a lot of the problem is that although pilots are required to receive 10 hour of rest before a duty period (there might be other permutations to that rule in 121 which I don't know about), it doesn't mean they are going to sleep during that time, especially if it's during the day. Truckers are away from home or interesting activities. They are also on more of a consistent schedule, at least as far as I can see.

Not really. The new rules do help because there's 11 hours of drive time in a 14-hour clock period, followed by a 10-hour break. So, with the 14-on, 10-off repeating itself, you've got the same schedule every 24 hours.

However, often what happens is that you park overnight at the destination and count the delivery of your load as part of the rest period (you didn't drive anywhere, and if you don't participate in the unloading of the truck you're not "on duty not driving" so the clock doesn't start). Then, you wait to be assigned your next load - Maybe you get another load that you can go pick up right away, maybe you don't. If you don't, you may get a load that picks up later that night and has to be run overnight to make it to the destination on time, so you have to sit where you are to avoid starting your 14-hour clock unless you have time for another 10-hour break when you arrive at the shipper. You might get a nap, you might not, and then you have to drive all night.

Where the new rules help is in getting shippers to get their act together and load trucks quicker. For example, I delivered a load in the Wilkes-Barre, PA area one morning and was assigned to another load that picked up maybe 1/2 hour to the south, supposedly ready right away. However, the shipper was very slow and didn't get me loaded until about 6 PM, and the load was due in Chicago at 6 AM the following morning. Since we were under the old rules at the time, I simply had to drive all night to get to the destination in time. Under the new rules, I'd have had to either wait at the shipper until 10 hours had passed (giving me a chance to nap for at least 4 hours after I was loaded and not pestering them about how slowly the loading process was going) and thus deliver later in the morning, or I'd have only been able to drive until ~1 AM when my 14-hour clock ran out, take a 10-hour break, and then go the rest of the way.

Since the shippers always want the load to the destination on time, they're now forced to either load the truck in a timely manner or tick off their customer because the load is late. It was a MAJOR improvement, once the trucking companies and buyers started pressuring the shippers to do so. It took maybe a year before things settled down, but they were much better afterwards.

Sure glad I'm not doing it any more, though!

 

[Everskyward]

Not really. The new rules do help because there's 11 hours of drive time in a 14-hour clock period, followed by a 10-hour break. So, with the 14-on, 10-off repeating itself, you've got the same schedule every 24 hours.

I don't see how that is any better than what pilots have, at least is isn't any better than what we have. Part 135 2-pilot crews can fly 10 hours (rather than 11) in 24, and a single pilot can only fly 8. I believe it's 8 for Part 121 also. Also, although we sometimes come up on the rest, duty and flight time limits it's almost never day after day where it seems like it would be for truck drivers.

But all this is moot anyway since we are mostly discussing sleep apnea and not rest rules.

 

[geneseib]

This is just an opinion poll, so no demands for facts, figures and citations required. The reason being, those facts aren't known yet.

There have been numerous cases of pilots or controllers sleeping on the job. Anyone know how their BMIs compare to the average? I think that would be a starting point to see if it is justified.

 

[Henning]

There have been numerous cases of pilots or controllers sleeping on the job. Anyone know how their BMIs compare to the average? I think that would be a starting point to see if it is justified.

Do to "discrimination" issues, I'm not sure if that data point was collected, although I guess you could look at their medical that was issued at the time to get it.

 

[Palmpilot]

Do to "discrimination" issues, I'm not sure if that data point was collected, although I guess you could look at their medical that was issued at the time to get it.

That's the thing: Since weight is on the medical certificate, the FAA already has the data they need, no?

 

[denverpilot]

Is the flight crew "released from duty" at the airport, or when they arrive at the hotel? I would have assumed the former.

I'm more concerned about a different problem than the one you're thinking of. It derives from the hub and spoke system. Out at night, back in the morning.

The key weasel word to focus on is "flight duty period". If you've been up all day like a normal human and your "flight duty period" starts at a 5PM show, 6 PM push... that flight back tomorrow morning from the out station, leaving at the ass crack of dawn, is still one "flight duty period" for standing overnights.

Think that regional reserve -- or better -- a crew member who gets junior manned in a staffing crunch on a holiday, got enough sleep in the preceding 24 hours prior to the "flight duty period"?

 

[Everskyward]

The key weasel word to focus on is "flight duty period". If you've been up all day like a normal human and your "flight duty period" starts at a 5PM show, 6 PM push... that flight back tomorrow morning from the out station, leaving at the ass crack of dawn, is still one "flight duty period" for standing overnights.

I know someone who is fairly senior at a local airline who likes the standup overnights because they can do things during the day. So how is changing the rule going to help? Other than eliminating duty periods starting in the evening. This is what I mean when I say that you can't enforce sleep. I guess if you were responsible you would try to be rested but most people can't sleep on demand, especially during the day, and there are many other pressures such as family, etc. So it's not only the fault of the regulators or the airlines.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I'm more concerned about a different problem than the one you're thinking of. It derives from the hub and spoke system. Out at night, back in the morning.

The key weasel word to focus on is "flight duty period". If you've been up all day like a normal human and your "flight duty period" starts at a 5PM show, 6 PM push... that flight back tomorrow morning from the out station, leaving at the ass crack of dawn, is still one "flight duty period" for standing overnights.

Think that regional reserve -- or better -- a crew member who gets junior manned in a staffing crunch on a holiday, got enough sleep in the preceding 24 hours prior to the "flight duty period"?

The flight crew member is responsible for accepting such an assignment. If he was awake all day then accepted a standup overnight then he is saying he's fit for duty.

I have been asked to take assignments in the past where I simply said no, not enough prior rest. It was dropped right there.

14 CFR Part 117 has specific language for these situations.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

Yes. Because lord knows we don't have enough government interference in our lives as it is.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The flight crew member is responsible for accepting such an assignment. If he was awake all day then accepted a standup overnight then he is saying he's fit for duty.

I have been asked to take assignments in the past where I simply said no, not enough prior rest. It was dropped right there.

Airline pilots, with unions, are much better off than truck drivers in this regard, then. If a trucker refused an overnight load due to fatigue like that, they'd be fired on the first or second "offense".

 

[RotorAndWing]

Airline pilots, with unions, are much better off than truck drivers in this regard, then. If a trucker refused an overnight load due to fatigue like that, they'd be fired on the first or second "offense".

If you have an employer that would fire someone for saying "I don't feel I can do this job in a safe manner" then they aren't really worth working for.

Just my opinion.