Glass cockpit vs steam gauges

Having taken a few people through their IR and instrument refresher training in DA40's and other glass panel aircraft with SVT (including G1000, G500, and Avidyne), I suspect I have more time in flight with SVT than both of you put together. My conclusion is that it's not that big a deal in light aircraft. Turning off the SVT doesn't change that much for instrument flying. Yes, it's nice, and can be a help when looking for the runway at the bottom of an instrument approach in near-minimums weather, and avoiding rocks if you're foolishly poking around down low VFR in marginal weather (i.e., scud-running), but it's not a game-changer. In fact, I find its capabilities a bit scary, as they may entice the unwise to try doing dumb things like busting mins or scud-running in the hills -- a modern version of Scylla and Charybdis.

Like any equipment in an airplane it's as only good as the person operating it. And yes during the training at MMAC it was discussed many times how someone could try to use the equipment for purposes not intended.

Unfortunately in aviation (GA to be more exact) you will always have an element that will try to use something not in the way it was intended.
 
I've NEVER seen ANY argument that said that glass airplanes fly differently than steam. Not common at all. They fly exactly the same, which is why you get no advantage from glass in VMC.

And it is more expensive. That you consider $20/hour (it's actually more like $40+ for a 172SP with glass, compared to a 172N with steam -- and that's the choice most of us really make) to be negligible means you have more spare money lying around than most. That's your good fortune. It's not universal; far from it.


As fact, which is how you represented your argument, they are indeed not valid. Your opinions are not fact. You could have said you "felt" safer, which would be true (presumably). Instead, you said they are safer, and that folks who fly older airplanes are not safe. That's hogwash, and the Nall report and other accident statistics do not support the argument.


I pay

$135 per hr for a the 172SP classic cockpit (Garmin 430 and King KLN-94 Gps)
and
$149 per hr for the172SP G1000 Glass Cockpit (traffic information, terrain, weather, charts)

So that's where I get my $20 per hour from.
Of course I could go over to whiteman and learn in the 1971 172L for $88 per hour...
I don't see how more available information could not be safer.....yes I know they could fail, but I'm more likely to have a car crash on the way to the airport than for that to happen.

My other point is that people seem to think having glass makes flying the plane different, as you say its not, if people fly the plane different because of glass that's not the panels fault.

As has been stated fly what you like and what you can afford.
 
I pay

$135 per hr for a the 172SP classic cockpit (Garmin 430 and King KLN-94 Gps)
and
$149 per hr for the172SP G1000 Glass Cockpit (traffic information, terrain, weather, charts)

So that's where I get my $20 per hour from.
Of course I could go over to whiteman and learn in the 1971 172L for $88 per hour...
Yup, and if you're talking about budget, that's exactly what you should compare against. The gross weight may be lower, but so is the empty weight. It's not a small effect.

FWIW, a 172L can carry MORE passenger weight with full fuel than a 172SP (steam or glass). The duration may be only 4 hours (minus reserve), but can you really stay aloft that long without a break or a call to nature?

That's more than a $50/hour difference, and a 172L is entirely capable of flying safely around LA airspace, even up to Big Bear.

I don't see how more available information could not be safer.....yes I know they could fail, but I'm more likely to have a car crash on the way to the airport than for that to happen.

It ISN'T more information. It's the same information packaged differently, optimized nicely for instrument flight that you aren't doing.

My other point is that people seem to think having glass makes flying the plane different, as you say its not, if people fly the plane different because of glass that's not the panels fault.
People don't like to admit this, but user interface can very, very easily drive behavior.

As has been stated fly what you like and what you can afford.

Sure, but don't misrepresent it. You absolutely can fly glass if that's what you want. But don't try to rationalize it as "safer." It's not. You may consider it "cooler," and to a certain demographic, it is. With lots of disposible cash, there is no reason why you shouldn't fly something just because it's cool. Heck, one of the local Google billionaires flies a fricken' AlphaJet around here. He doesn't claim it's safer, and it isn't unless defending against invading East Germans. He certainly doesn't claim it's cheap -- that thing has to be over $1000/hour, and it seems like it always has a panel or two off with a couple of maintenance guys working on it. And he also keeps a 172N on the ramp....along with two Gulfstreams, a 757 and a 767.
 
I believe flying in IMC and flying approaches in IMC is safer with SVT than without, particularly single pilot, as long as you are proficient in its use. I have no evidence to support this however I also have no evidence against it either. Seldom correct, never in doubt is the motto I live by. The TAA research I've seen does not cover SVT.
 
It ISN'T more information. It's the same information packaged differently, optimized nicely for instrument flight that you aren't doing.

Packaged differently? Uh, no. Get me your true airspeed, groundspeed, tell me what your range is in all directions, find the progress of the storm 100 miles ahead of you and get the weather for your destination airport that you're not yet within radio range of. You have 10 seconds. Go.

Oh, and by the way, while you're doing all that, don't forget there's a TV tower with its lights out 10 miles ahead, and conflicting traffic at your 10 o'clock and 2 miles, moving toward you.
 
Given a $$-free choice, it would seem that flying glass is the logical answer. We are all moving there, it will continue to get cheaper, it's inevitable, like GPS.

I built an EXP plane with a dual electrical system (2 batts, 2 buses, 2 alternators), dual AHRS and 3 screens. There are 4 sources for moving map data (plus dual Foreflight), 2 GPS sources (plus dual Foreflight), and 2 nav/comms. All 3 EFIS screens/units have Synthetic Vision. And just in case I have a round ASI, ALT and an ADI (more than a turn indicator, less than a AI) with it's own GPS and backup battery. My transponder and ADSB units are not backed up. And the backup I really like having is a 2 axis AP which will keep things right side up as long as I have electricity.

There's no going back from that when thinking about going from A to B in most conditions.

Training on steam if you have a choice is a waste and will soon become a joke. I question how many pilots minted since say 1993 can actually navigate by pilotage or do a dead reckoning leg under stress. I was taught pilotage like every other pilot in my PPL training but I learned pilotage doing cross country tasks in gliders. The circling and the need to follow the lift made it challenging. Then a funny thing happened in gliding during the 80s. There was a rule in competition soaring that ground based navigation aids like VORs and Loran were illegal. With the availability of GPS, the rule could be circumvented and glider guiders became early adopters. Very quickly, maps began to remain folded and pilotage skills were lost. After years of racing with GPS, I came back to airplanes and found it funny how slowly GPS technology was being adopted. Navigation radios seemed unnecessary to me but I'm still carrying two of them just because.

Anybody not using GPS today? Will anyone be using steam tomorrow? Yes, the same folks flying round engines today. Nostalgia is fun. Glass is happening.
 
Totally agree MauleDriver...

Hard core computer buffs thumbed their noses at the mouse when it first came out. If you used one, you were not considered a very good or smart computer user. Hmmm... wonder how that turned out?

It will always be this way with technology. It just takes some of us longer to adopt changes than others even where there is clear benefit.
 
Given a $$-free choice, it would seem that flying glass is the logical answer. We are all moving there, it will continue to get cheaper, it's inevitable, like GPS.

Hasn't happened yet. Not even close. A gyro is still far far far cheaper than the process to bring a certified GPS to market and probably always will be. There's also a crap-ton more suppliers with certified products. For all intents and purposes, there is no significant competition anymore in the certified GPS market. Bendix-King can't get their you-know-what together. It's Garmin or the highway pretty-much.
 
Where is SoCal can you get that deal?


My flight school at van nuys....plane is booked solid most of the time, especially at weekends.

Vista aviation have a glass 172 for $155 an hour, and as I work on the owners Ferrari's I'm sure expecting a break on that price :D:D, I will use this when "my" plane is not available.

I have also lined up a 182T with G1000 for $200 an hour wet in which I will get my high performance endorsement in pretty soon.

The Cirrus is going to cost about $250 per hour.. but will be able to fly my friends when he's out of town for half that...
 
Hasn't happened yet. Not even close. A gyro is still far far far cheaper than the process to bring a certified GPS to market and probably always will be. There's also a crap-ton more suppliers with certified products. For all intents and purposes, there is no significant competition anymore in the certified GPS market. Bendix-King can't get their you-know-what together. It's Garmin or the highway pretty-much.
Wow. I'm certainly not all that informed with regard to the avionics market. I know Garmin owns the high ground... and the low ground. But there's a crap load of experimental avionics suppliers out there churning out a lot of innovative low cost product. Perhaps coming in the experimental back door like Cirrus may happen in avionics but whatever happens, it's digital electronics. They are reliable, always getting cheaper and no market is stable for long with a single dominant player. I'm thinking there's room for 1 or two more.
 
Anybody not using GPS today? Will anyone be using steam tomorrow? Yes, the same folks flying round engines today. Nostalgia is fun. Glass is happening.

Glass won't take over with near the speed GPS did. Glass is really nice, but doesn't offer anything new operationally the way the ability to go direct to a spot did on GPS. Also, it's more expensive, to the point where on many legacy GA aircraft it's prohibitive - Almost nobody is going to spend the money to put a $30,000 glass panel in a $25,000 aircraft. You won't likely see a G600 in a 172N any more frequently than you see a 430 in a C152.

Glass is here to stay, but I don't expect the majority of airworthy aircraft to be equipped with it in my lifetime.
 
Packaged differently? Uh, no. Get me your true airspeed, groundspeed, tell me what your range is in all directions, find the progress of the storm 100 miles ahead of you and get the weather for your destination airport that you're not yet within radio range of. You have 10 seconds. Go.

Oh, and by the way, while you're doing all that, don't forget there's a TV tower with its lights out 10 miles ahead, and conflicting traffic at your 10 o'clock and 2 miles, moving toward you.

And a NORDO Cub 40 knots slower than you dead ahead...oh, wait.

Virtually every steam gauge airplane has a TAS gauge, as if you really need that for any VFR purpose. Ground speed comes from DME if you can't figure it out from your progress. Similarly, crab angle can and should be directly observed out the window.

If the point of glass is to skip the weather briefing, we really are training less than competent pilots. I'm a bit surprised at the level of dependence here. People have been killed trying to use NexRad feeds tactically.

If you ever get in a situation where you need all those answers in 10 seconds, you're in WAY over your head and are probably about to die with or without glass.

Weather at the destination and along the route is pretty easy to get from FSS or Flight Watch.
 
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And a NORDO Cub 40 knots slower than you dead ahead...oh, wait.

Virtually every steam gauge airplane has a TAS gauge. Ground speed comes from DME if you can't figure it out from your progress.

If the point of glass is to skip the weather briefing, we really are training less than competent pilots. I'm a bit surprised at the level of dependence here. People have been killed trying to use NexRad feeds tactically.

If you ever get in a situation where you need all those answers in 10 seconds, you're in WAY over your head and are probably about to die with or without glass.

I'm not instrument rated yet and I never skip the weather briefing, but it's nice to get the destination weather (particularly the winds) before I'm in range of the ATIS. That way, I can start getting a mental picture of which runway I'll be landing on and how I'll enter the pattern.
 
Glass won't take over with near the speed GPS did. Glass is really nice, but doesn't offer anything new operationally the way the ability to go direct to a spot did on GPS. Also, it's more expensive, to the point where on many legacy GA aircraft it's prohibitive - Almost nobody is going to spend the money to put a $30,000 glass panel in a $25,000 aircraft. You won't likely see a G600 in a 172N any more frequently than you see a 430 in a C152.

Glass is here to stay, but I don't expect the majority of airworthy aircraft to be equipped with it in my lifetime.

Well, soon enough you'll see the ones without restricted to G airspace. NexGEN is coming.
 
I'm not instrument rated yet and I never skip the weather briefing, but it's nice to get the destination weather (particularly the winds) before I'm in range of the ATIS. That way, I can start getting a mental picture of which runway I'll be landing on and how I'll enter the pattern.

ATIS is supposed to be good to 50 miles, but often it isn't, especially at low altitude. You can get it from almost any ATC facility. FSS and Flight Watch are meant for the purpose, but I've asked a closer tower before, and Center many times. Keep in mind, though, that it can change before you get there. And they usually won't give the code.
 
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ATIS is supposed to be good to 50 miles, but often it isn't, especially at low altitude. You can get it from almost any ATC facility. FSS and Flight Watch are meant for the purpose, but I've asked a closer tower before, and Center many times. Keep in mind, though, that it can change before you get there. And they usually won't give the code.

Yeah that's true. I guess what I was getting at is, I don't see the extra tools available in glass as a negative. I like having more resources rather than less.
Same with TIS. It doesn't entice me to scan any less than without it, but it sure is nice to have, especially in high density areas (I'm based on Long Island).

But as a renter, I fly whatever's available at the time:).
 
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Hard core computer buffs thumbed their noses at the mouse when it first came out. If you used one, you were not considered a very good or smart computer user. Hmmm... wonder how that turned out?
Rather differently than you presumed.

Mice cause injury and slow us down. They are used as little as feasible. Some user interfaces really suck without them. Some fields use it heavily. But for basic coding, it's a hindrance, mainly in the act of switching between text and clicks. For operation, they are used exclusively where feasible. This does cause operational issues -- mice aren't very precise for numerical input, but that has to be balanced against risk of transposing digits.

No one I ever worked with had the attitude you describe. Maybe it's the difference between screwing around and doing it professionally.

As for indispensibility, how many tablets have you seen with mice? They are becoming obsolete.
 
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Rather differently than you presumed.

Mice cause injury and slow us down. They are used as little as feasible. Some user interfaces really suck without them. Some fields use it heavily. But for basic coding, it's a hindrance, mainly in the act of switching between text and clicks. For operation, they are used exclusively where feasible. This does cause operational issues -- mice aren't very precise for numerical input, but that has to be balanced against risk of transposing digits.

No one I ever worked with had the attitude you describe. Maybe it's the difference between screwing around and doing it professionally.

As for indispensibility, how many tablets have you seen with mice? They are becoming obsolete.

Yep, touch screens are replacing mice.
 
Rather differently than you presumed.

Mice cause injury and slow us down. They are used as little as feasible. Some user interfaces really suck without them. Some fields use it heavily. But for basic coding, it's a hindrance, mainly in the act of switching between text and clicks. For operation, they are used exclusively where feasible. This does cause operational issues -- mice aren't very precise for numerical input, but that has to be balanced against risk of transposing digits.

No one I ever worked with had the attitude you describe. Maybe it's the difference between screwing around and doing it professionally.

As for indispensibility, how many tablets have you seen with mice? They are becoming obsolete.
For the end user of most computers Mice are not an endangered species. This is where the is such a huge disconnect between computer programmers and end users. Programmer often think like programmers, and often have very little ability to understand how a program is going to be used by the non computer savvy person. Programs become over complicated and technically awesome, but as a result are unwieldly for the average user. Is the latest version of microsoft word, or for that matter windows really any better for tha average user than a few generations ago. I own more computers than I really like to think about and run ewverything from XP to windows8 and to tell you the truth XP has many things windows8 does not and in many ways is a better platform. I am using a 10 year old microsoft word on some of my computers and it works just as well as the new version of word that I have on my new laptop. For the vast majority of the computer using public programs need to be as simple as possible. Unfortunately, for companies such as Apple, and Microsoft, to do this would put them out of business. (Unfortunately, the world is enamored with electronic devices, and the companies have convinced us we can not live without what cell phones do today. I do not know how I survived the 1970's where my phone had a rotary dial and was only used for talking, and the only entertainment in my car was my AM radio, oh and my girl friend in the passenger seat:wink2:). A computer mice for a desktop application, think word processing, internet browsing, or accessing a database, and entering data, a mice is pretty convenient. Tablets are more of a mobile device and a mice would be inconvenient. As for mice related injury, I think the risk of chronic trauma from mice usage or even keyboard usage is somewaht over emphasized. Certainly, neurosurgeons, hand surgeons, and plastic surgeons are not getting overwhelmed with cases of carpal tunnel syndrome or wrist injuries from computer use.
 
Might want to watch the generalizations.

Yes, some engineers lose track of users. Not the good ones. Some of us design systems, of which the user is an integral part. I have the luxury of knowing all my users personally, and you can bet they have A LOT of say in how it's done. That doesn't mean the system is designed by committee (and BTW, that's what you're actually complaining about -- feature bloat is a symptom of trying to please everyone at once in a literal sense). My role as systems engineer is to synthesize that into a minimally complex system that works and simultaneously satisfies both what the users say they need and what they really need (and they differ).

Not all of us work ridiculous hours for Microsoft, and not all projects are managed as releasing now or else.

And a good systems engineer reduces complexity. That, in a nutshell, is what is wrong with Garmin interfaces across the board. They are hideously complex for the relatively simple functions they are doing.
 
Might want to watch the generalizations.

Yes, some engineers lose track of users. Not the good ones. Some of us design systems, of which the user is an integral part. I have the luxury of knowing all my users personally, and you can bet they have A LOT of say in how it's done. That doesn't mean the system is designed by committee (and BTW, that's what you're actually complaining about -- feature bloat is a symptom of trying to please everyone at once in a literal sense). My role as systems engineer is to synthesize that into a minimally complex system that works and simultaneously satisfies both what the users say they need and what they really need (and they differ).

Not all of us work ridiculous hours for Microsoft, and not all projects are managed as releasing now or else.

And a good systems engineer reduces complexity. That, in a nutshell, is what is wrong with Garmin interfaces across the board. They are hideously complex for the relatively simple functions they are doing.
Sorry, looks like I struck a nerve, and that was not my intention. I think your programs are vastly different from what I am talking about. You are writing code for a custom process which is very different for the mass produced garbage out there. I no longer program, but did some in an earlier life, and many of the programmers I met barely understood the needs of the end user, and I still see that quite commonly. Remember the majority of computer users do not know the difference between a bit and a byte, binary and hexidecimal, or analog and digital, all they care about is whether the program is user friendly or not and serves the purpose they need it for.
 
Like any equipment in an airplane it's as only good as the person operating it. And yes during the training at MMAC it was discussed many times how someone could try to use the equipment for purposes not intended.

Unfortunately in aviation (GA to be more exact) you will always have an element that will try to use something not in the way it was intended.
Agreed on all points. But my main disagreement with Henning is that he seems to think SVT is a game-changer, and I don't. It's nice to have, but that's about it. Although I'm beginning to think Henning doesn't understand the difference between integrated displays and SVT, and that he thinks the basic integrated display constitutes SVT -- and it doesn't.
 
Agreed on all points. But my main disagreement with Henning is that he seems to think SVT is a game-changer, and I don't. It's nice to have, but that's about it. Although I'm beginning to think Henning doesn't understand the difference between integrated displays and SVT, and that he thinks the basic integrated display constitutes SVT -- and it doesn't.
Not sure what Henning thinks is SVT, but I get quite concerned when people start talking about how technology(specifically glass cockpits) can make the difference between safe and unsafe flying. In my opinion, it is what is between your ears and how you use what is in front of yours eyes that makes you a safe pilot and not what is in front of your eyes. Sure there is more information available to you in a glass cockpit, but the majority of it is just a different presentation than what is in a steam gauge cockpit. The additional stuff is nice to have but does not relieve you of your primary obligation as a pilot that being fly the plane!
 
Not sure what Henning thinks is SVT, but I get quite concerned when people start talking about how technology(specifically glass cockpits) can make the difference between safe and unsafe flying. In my opinion, it is what is between your ears and how you use what is in front of yours eyes that makes you a safe pilot and not what is in front of your eyes. Sure there is more information available to you in a glass cockpit, but the majority of it is just a different presentation than what is in a steam gauge cockpit. The additional stuff is nice to have but does not relieve you of your primary obligation as a pilot that being fly the plane!

In defense of glass, AHRS derived information presented in an LCD display is objectively more accurate than that derived and presented behind mechanical gyros. It takes a minimum of three heading correction attempts on my part to track an ATC assigned radar vector, if I wish to be within 10 degrees of assigned heading. That's on a good day behind these vacuum POS. Likewise with AI information. I can't get the mech gyros to show 0 bank during wings level if my life depended on it. If I center the AI, I'm turning, period dot.

At my level of recency and proficiency, that's just a mere nuisance, though ****es me off enough that I've written off hard IMC in my recreational flying (Im lazy on my days off). For a non-recent amateur pilot though, it could be the difference between enough task saturation to come out the soup in a survivable attitude or morting it. Ergo, glass AHRS is marginally safer because it is marginally more accurate information. Emphasis on marginally, I'm not suggesting it is an absolute game changer.
 
Nope. More precise, not more accurate. If anything, FOGs are less accurate than iron, as they measure rates rather than attitudes. Slaving makes the difference; if you turn it off, FOGs precess like mad.

And the old RMIs solved this problem well prior to glass.

We use FOGs to point our telescope, mainly because they add no vibration, no air currents, and no EMI. They require constant correction to pull that off, on the level of seconds.
 
Wow. I'm certainly not all that informed with regard to the avionics market. I know Garmin owns the high ground... and the low ground. But there's a crap load of experimental avionics suppliers out there churning out a lot of innovative low cost product. Perhaps coming in the experimental back door like Cirrus may happen in avionics but whatever happens, it's digital electronics. They are reliable, always getting cheaper and no market is stable for long with a single dominant player. I'm thinking there's room for 1 or two more.

Keep dreaming. It's a declining market. Garmin bought up all their competition when folks were still spending enough money to make the investment in certifying worthwhile. Now they're positioned to simply ride the wave downward.
 
In defense of glass, AHRS derived information presented in an LCD display is objectively more accurate than that derived and presented behind mechanical gyros. It takes a minimum of three heading correction attempts on my part to track an ATC assigned radar vector, if I wish to be within 10 degrees of assigned heading. That's on a good day behind these vacuum POS. Likewise with AI information. I can't get the mech gyros to show 0 bank during wings level if my life depended on it. If I center the AI, I'm turning, period dot.

At my level of recency and proficiency, that's just a mere nuisance, though ****es me off enough that I've written off hard IMC in my recreational flying (Im lazy on my days off). For a non-recent amateur pilot though, it could be the difference between enough task saturation to come out the soup in a survivable attitude or morting it. Ergo, glass AHRS is marginally safer because it is marginally more accurate information. Emphasis on marginally, I'm not suggesting it is an absolute game changer.
I think your points make some sense. I am not sure that the studies really support any advantage of glass cockpit over steam gauge in terms of safety, and for me that is the main issue. Certainly, the presentation that a glass cockpit gives you is in many ways superior to that of steam gauges, but that advantage is really an in issue with instrument flying and this should not affect your ability to fly VFR. I have minimal instrument flying experience with steam gauges and so am not in any position to give a first hand account of the differences, as the vast majority of my IMC flying has been with a glass cockpit, and only a small amount with a six pack.

I think suggesting that glass cockpits are superior to steam gauges however is misleading and unfortunate, and is more of a personal opinion. I think suggesting that they are safer is just wrong. Certainly, I think we can find a particular situation where they are safer, but in the vast majority of flying that is not the case, and my reading of the studies seem to bear that out.
 
I think your points make some sense. I am not sure that the studies really support any advantage of glass cockpit over steam gauge in terms of safety, and for me that is the main issue.
In theory, it should be possible to fly more safely with something like the Cirrus Perspective system (i.e., "glass") than a classic 1978-vintage vacuum-powered 6-pack dual nav/comm panel (i.e., "steam") -- more information available, more redundancy, better human factors all around. In reality, pretty near all the glass-panel plane accidents have been related to pilots making bad decisions unrelated to the presentation of flight/nav data. I mean, you can't blame running into the ground while trying to herd cattle with your Cirrus on the flight instruments. OTOH, confusion due to inability to sort out what was working from what wasn't is what brought down a glass-panel Cirrus in Florida -- something that might not have been so confusing in a simpler panel with fewer inputs to the pilot.

All in all, there really are not yet sufficient data to really say for sure if there is a difference in safety due to glass vs steam. All I can tell you from my perspective of giving a lot of IR training in both is that there is more to see and more to learn and remember with glass.
 
In theory, it should be possible to fly more safely with something like the Cirrus Perspective system (i.e., "glass") than a classic 1978-vintage vacuum-powered 6-pack dual nav/comm panel (i.e., "steam") -- more information available, more redundancy, better human factors all around. In reality, pretty near all the glass-panel plane accidents have been related to pilots making bad decisions unrelated to the presentation of flight/nav data. I mean, you can't blame running into the ground while trying to herd cattle with your Cirrus on the flight instruments. OTOH, confusion due to inability to sort out what was working from what wasn't is what brought down a glass-panel Cirrus in Florida -- something that might not have been so confusing in a simpler panel with fewer inputs to the pilot.

All in all, there really are not yet sufficient data to really say for sure if there is a difference in safety due to glass vs steam. All I can tell you from my perspective of giving a lot of IR training in both is that there is more to see and more to learn and remember with glass.
Not familiar witht he Florida accident but I probably should be. However there should be no confusion in what is working in a Cirrus glass panel(assuming it was a G1000). If it does not work there is a big red X.

Anyhow, your point, which I think I have also said a few times that is most important is that most accidents (and you mention with glass panels but it is the same with steam gauges) are because of the pilots failed the plane, and not because the plane failed the pilot.
 
Not familiar witht he Florida accident but I probably should be. However there should be no confusion in what is working in a Cirrus glass panel(assuming it was a G1000). If it does not work there is a big red X.

Are you sure about that?

Can the G1000 detect an iced Pitot tube and put a red X over the airspeed indicator? Or will it just function like an altimeter like any other ASI would do?

Can it detect engine roughness and tell you whether you're too lean or which mag is misfiring?

What about detonation?

I could imagine people trying to make a system that does that, but it would be unreliable and VERY complex. Every time you have to make up a parameter, you make another way for it to fail and another set of tests that raise the cost. Every time you make a data dependency, likewise.
 
Not familiar witht he Florida accident but I probably should be. However there should be no confusion in what is working in a Cirrus glass panel(assuming it was a G1000). If it does not work there is a big red X.
True, but when some instruments are telling you one thing and others are telling you another, the more data in front of you, the more you have to sort out. In the Florida case, it was water in the static lines, so both the primary and backup altimeter/airspeed/VS instruments were haywire, but the attitude and heading were good. Only problem was the airplane had just come out of maintenance on the electric power system, so the pilot assumed it was the electrically powered instruments (including the backup AI) which were bad, when in fact those were the good ones. Try following altitude and airspeed when there's water in the static system (BTDT, but only for long enough to grab the alternate static source knob), and you'll see how fast you lose he bubble if you preemptively reject the AI as valid.

Anyhow, your point, which I think I have also said a few times that is most important is that most accidents (and you mention with glass panels but it is the same with steam gauges) are because of the pilots failed the plane, and not because the plane failed the pilot.
Exactly. And that's why we don't have enough data to confirm the relative safety of glass. Everything we know about human factors and systems design says should be better, but we can't prove it yet.

Guess it comes down to the fact that too many fools are too foolish for us to make things truly foolproof.
 
Are you sure about that?

Can the G1000 detect an iced Pitot tube and put a red X over the airspeed indicator? Or will it just function like an altimeter like any other ASI would do?

Can it detect engine roughness and tell you whether you're too lean or which mag is misfiring?

What about detonation?

I could imagine people trying to make a system that does that, but it would be unreliable and VERY complex. Every time you have to make up a parameter, you make another way for it to fail and another set of tests that raise the cost. Every time you make a data dependency, likewise.
You are right not every malfunction will the G1000 tell you it is there but the examples you give such as pitot tube icing, engine roughness, engine mismanagement should be quite obvious with or without a G1000. Ron describes the cause of the problem in the Cirrus case as water in the static line, and likewise there will not be big X's for that either. However, and I think this is the rub, it does not matter if you are a glass cockpit or a steam gauge if you fail to fly the plane, and forget your training you are likely not to have a happy end to the flight. This has been my point all along, mishaps more often occur because of pilot factors and not because of plane factors, and often if a crash occurs because of plane factors the cause of the plane factor is a pilot factor, or the pilot has mismanaged the plane factor. As far as I am concerned these are preventable accidents, and having a glass cockpit, or not having a glass cockpit is not going to make a difference.
 
You are right not every malfunction will the G1000 tell you it is there but the examples you give such as pitot tube icing, engine roughness, engine mismanagement should be quite obvious with or without a G1000. Ron describes the cause of the problem in the Cirrus case as water in the static line, and likewise there will not be big X's for that either. However, and I think this is the rub, it does not matter if you are a glass cockpit or a steam gauge if you fail to fly the plane, and forget your training you are likely not to have a happy end to the flight. This has been my point all along, mishaps more often occur because of pilot factors and not because of plane factors, and often if a crash occurs because of plane factors the cause of the plane factor is a pilot factor, or the pilot has mismanaged the plane factor. As far as I am concerned these are preventable accidents, and having a glass cockpit, or not having a glass cockpit is not going to make a difference.

You're right on that, but you exposed an important issue as well.

You assumed faults would be due to the glass. So did the dead pilot in Florida. You said any fault would be a big red X, i.e., that the panel would find them for you. I don't think you really meant that, but it's a fixiation quite a lot of people seem to have.

The glass panel seems to squeeze out everything else in a pilot's mind. It's just a panel; it is not the airplane. The airplane is fundamentally a set of control surfaces, wings, and an engine. Everything else is an accessory. In IMC, some of those accessories get really critical, and they are not all electronic.
 
I'm told that insurers are favorably impressed with the safety gains from use of TAWS and EGPWS. The systems don't fall specifically into the "glass" category but represent significant advancements.

I think your points make some sense. I am not sure that the studies really support any advantage of glass cockpit over steam gauge in terms of safety, and for me that is the main issue. Certainly, the presentation that a glass cockpit gives you is in many ways superior to that of steam gauges, but that advantage is really an in issue with instrument flying and this should not affect your ability to fly VFR. I have minimal instrument flying experience with steam gauges and so am not in any position to give a first hand account of the differences, as the vast majority of my IMC flying has been with a glass cockpit, and only a small amount with a six pack.

I think suggesting that glass cockpits are superior to steam gauges however is misleading and unfortunate, and is more of a personal opinion. I think suggesting that they are safer is just wrong. Certainly, I think we can find a particular situation where they are safer, but in the vast majority of flying that is not the case, and my reading of the studies seem to bear that out.
 
Can the G1000 detect an iced Pitot tube and put a red X over the airspeed indicator? Or will it just function like an altimeter like any other ASI would do?

Can it detect engine roughness and tell you whether you're too lean or which mag is misfiring?

What about detonation?

I could imagine people trying to make a system that does that, but it would be unreliable and VERY complex. Every time you have to make up a parameter, you make another way for it to fail and another set of tests that raise the cost. Every time you make a data dependency, likewise.

Actually, engine roughness and misfire detection, mixture control and detonation are very simple tasks to detect and control so no, that system would not be unreliable nor complex.

The only reason why they are not implemented on aircraft engines is simply because pilots still are seemingly happy to spend 50k on an engine based on 1950's technology :)
 
Actually, engine roughness and misfire detection, mixture control and detonation are very simple tasks to detect and control so no, that system would not be unreliable nor complex.

I know what you're referring to -- it's done in cars.

Calling that "very simple" means you don't understand the complexity adding a whole new parameter -- spark advance -- adds. Mixture control also has substantial failure modes leading to large power losses.

Detection isn't THAT bad, but it's not terribly reliable for misfires. Most misfires don't set codes unless severe. There is no technique for controlling a misfire aside from setting a MIL and letting the owner deal with it.

Detonation is a lot easier -- you retard the timing until the detonation stops. This has extra wires to fail, and false positives reduce engine power without warning, not something I'd want to happen during a Vx climb.

Internal combustion engines are among the most complex mechanical systems built. They have become even more complex with time. And many of the failure modes make them just quit.
 
Not sure what Henning thinks is SVT, but I get quite concerned when people start talking about how technology(specifically glass cockpits) can make the difference between safe and unsafe flying. In my opinion, it is what is between your ears and how you use what is in front of yours eyes that makes you a safe pilot and not what is in front of your eyes. Sure there is more information available to you in a glass cockpit, but the majority of it is just a different presentation than what is in a steam gauge cockpit. The additional stuff is nice to have but does not relieve you of your primary obligation as a pilot that being fly the plane!

Give this man a cigar! :thumbsup:
 
I know what you're referring to -- it's done in cars.

Calling that "very simple" means you don't understand the complexity adding a whole new parameter -- spark advance -- adds. Mixture control also has substantial failure modes leading to large power losses.

Detection isn't THAT bad, but it's not terribly reliable for misfires. Most misfires don't set codes unless severe. There is no technique for controlling a misfire aside from setting a MIL and letting the owner deal with it.

Detonation is a lot easier -- you retard the timing until the detonation stops. This has extra wires to fail, and false positives reduce engine power without warning, not something I'd want to happen during a Vx climb.

Internal combustion engines are among the most complex mechanical systems built. They have become even more complex with time. And many of the failure modes make them just quit.

I call those systems very simple because I understand them better than average, I design and calibrate them for living :)

Knock detection (not detonation, thats an incorrect term used way too often!) would be very useful especially on climbing, knocking combustion produces less power than stable combustion.

Anyway, we're a bit off topic already here, but I still maintain my opinion, that these systems are not implemented to flying objects not because of reliability/complexity issues, but simply because customers are not asking for them. Proper engine monitoring and control systems would highly increase reliability and durability of the engines.
 
I call those systems very simple because I understand them better than average, I design and calibrate them for living :)

And I repair them, though not for a living. I do work with other types of control systems for a living. Even rudimentary automotive systems work well when everything is new and working properly. It's when things start to degrade that bad things happen. And having lots of wires around the engine compartment makes mechanism and opportunity for lots and lots and lots of undesigned behaviors. There are a number of cars notorious for electrical gremlins. This is why.

But you're right, it's off topic.

You're NOT right that no one is looking into that for aviation. It's done with Diesels to get around the added spark advance complexity. It's fine when it works, but it's not cheap, and there are some uncomfortable failure modes.

And FYI, detonation refers to the combustion event. Knock refers to how the engine block responds to it. Detonation is a perfectly valid description of uncontrolled combustion involving a shock wave. The sensor detects knock and presumes the knock was due to detonation. They are commonly tested with a hammer, so you might imagine noncombustion ways that they might get fooled.
 
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