Vans RV or Glasair for low time pilot

Gotcha, Training/time in type is more relevant than total time. That answers my original question. As long as we invest in good tradition training, we should have no problem. Now we just need to find the right plane.

Thanks roscoe :)

T
 
Gotcha, Training/time in type is more relevant than total time. That answers my original question. As long as we invest in good tradition training, we should have no problem. Now we just need to find the right plane.

Thanks roscoe :)

T

Meh, not sure I would go that far, chances are an active multi-thousand hour ATP is going to transition to a RV in a FAR shorter duration of time then a new PPL.
 
Meh, not sure I would go that far, chances are an active multi-thousand hour ATP is going to transition to a RV in a FAR shorter duration of time then a new PPL.

Disagree. Not sure what ATP and ratings have to do with quickly learning to get a feel for an RV if you have no similar experience. And if it's a tailwheel RV, you know all bets are off. Budd Davisson has been teaching in Pitts' for about 40 years and he says the ones (in general) who are the hardest and take the longest to transition are the high-time airline types.
 
What inherent difference in handling characteristics do you attribute to the 172 vs the Champ? What if it had been a trike champ? I think you're greatly under-stating the twitchiness and pilot reaction aspects of the different planes.
Yes

Say if the guy learned in a 150 or PA28, has 100 or so hours, VFR PPL.

Transition time to a 182 vs RV, though it aint likely to be a HUGE difference, I'd wager the RV would take a few hours more then the cessna

Now if that guy had learned how to fly in a 7AC or PA18, I'd wager it would be a VERY short transition and it wouldn't be a difference in required time between a cessna or RV transition.
 
What inherent difference in handling characteristics do you attribute to the 172 vs the Champ? What if it had been a trike champ? I think you're greatly under-stating the twitchiness and pilot reaction aspects of the different planes.

He was saying that if you learned to fly in a tailwheel airplane that transitioning to an RV-8 (tailwheel) would be very easy. This is true. A current and reasonably skilled Champ pilot would be comfortable in a tailwheel RV in a couple hours. A 172 pilot would take a whole lot longer even though RVs are easy-peasy tailwheel airplanes.
 
When should we expect the first RV or other fast-twitch trainers?

He was saying that if you learned to fly in a tailwheel airplane that transitioning to an RV-8 (tailwheel) would be very easy. This is true. A current and reasonably skilled Champ pilot would be comfortable in a tailwheel RV in a couple hours. A 172 pilot would take a whole lot longer even though RVs are easy-peasy tailwheel airplanes.
 
When should we expect the first RV or other fast-twitch trainers?

The RV-9 was designed as a trainer type. And there's no reason a short-wing RV couldn't be used as a trainer. The Nigerian airforce built a fleet of RV-6s years back to use as primary trainers. No joke. Have you ever flown an RV? They're easy as Cherokees, with lighter controls and a little better roll rate....in fact they would not be great trainers because they're too easy to fly and have too little adverse yaw.
 
I have not flown an RV, but only because the timing hasn't worked out. I haven't flown a Pitts because I have no interest in acro-only airplanes. Some of the other little twitchies that I've flown over the years have convinced me they would be difficult for students simply because they were difficult for me and I think I've been doing it and teaching it for sufficient time to know the difference.
I'm trying to remember the last time a transition pilot surprised me by over-achieving during training. I'll report back if one comes to mind.


The RV-9 was designed as a trainer type. And there's no reason a short-wing RV couldn't be used as a trainer. The Nigerian airforce built a fleet of RV-6s years back to use as primary trainers. No joke. Have you ever flown an RV? They're easy as Cherokees, with lighter controls and a little better roll rate....in fact they would not be great trainers because they're too easy to fly and have too little adverse yaw.
 
Isnt a all aluminum trike RV8 also a "spam can"?

Ive always heard that term referring to non-fabric planes (especially trikes) as spam cans.

Nope. The term "spamcan" also implies it has to be factory-built and certificated, as well as mostly aluminum, and has to be a single-engine. Twins and aluminum E-AB aircraft are not spamcans.
 
Of course - the spam trained pilot would take more time to adjust to the RV-8 than the 172. But how is this relevant to the low-time pilot discussion? Low-time pilots transition just as easily to RVs (probably easier actually) as high-time pilots. It's entirely possible (and maybe even likely) that the zero hour pilot could solo the RV-8 quicker than the 20,000 hr pilot who only has time in trike trainers, Bonanzas, and Airbuses.

:rolleyes2: :nonod:
 
Because the number of 100 hr pilots out there who have the money and motivation is virtually non-existant. About the only requirement for the type rating would be the multi. For an extremely wealthy new pilot hellbent on owning and flying their own Citation, it could be done. There may be limitations on their privelages, but the training and qualifications could be obtained.

Better go back and reread 14 CFR Part 61.
 
The RV-9 was designed as a trainer type. And there's no reason a short-wing RV couldn't be used as a trainer. The Nigerian airforce built a fleet of RV-6s years back to use as primary trainers. No joke. Have you ever flown an RV? They're easy as Cherokees, with lighter controls and a little better roll rate....in fact they would not be great trainers because they're too easy to fly and have too little adverse yaw.

Although I've not flown one myself, the -9 is reportedly nowhere near as "twitchy" as a 6/7/8, it's supposed to be quite stable while still being responsive and have noticeably heavier stick forces than the others. The 4-seat RV-10 also is not twitchy at all, I've flown a -10 and it was very easy and pure bliss for a big 4-seater, waaay much lighter on the controls and responsive than my old Cherokee. I was told it is just a little lighter on the controls than a Bonanza, but I've never flown a Bo, so I don't know how they feel.

Saying a -6 is as easy to fly as a Cherokee is a bit of a stretch. It's "easy" as in the control stick forces are very light and you don't have to push any controls hard, but it is much more "difficult" to fly than a Cherokee in that you have to be very gentle on the controls and be on your toes, quick thinking, and paying attention all the time prepared to make brisk changes in pitch or roll when needed, and to not chase the airspeed needle coming down final. Yeah, you can definitely say a -6 can be considered "twitchy".

I flew a Cherokee for 10 years and 800 hours, and you can basically turn your brain off in the landing flare and the plane will land itself just fine. In the RV-6, you're flying the thing until you shut the engine off. The old saying "You're not done flying, till you're tying..." really applies.

Also a Cherokee has a 30 degree per second roll rate... the RV-6 is about 150 degrees per second roll rate. To stand a Cherokee up on a wingtip in a really steep bank takes both hands on the yoke (or better yet one hand on each yoke so you can get more leverage :lol:) and a mighty heave. The -6 just needs one finger and your thumb on the stick and a slight flick of the wrist and you're at an 80-90 degree bank like *right-this-split-second* :yes:.

Once you've become accustomed to how an RV-6 flies, then yes it is "easy", but as I've mentioned elsewhere in the past... my transitioning from the Cherokee to the two-seater RVs (mostly -4, -6, -8) was a lot like learning how to fly an airplane all over again for the first few hours until I got the hang of the extreme nimbleness and responsiveness after so many years and hours of flying a wallowing pig of a spamcan and having that kind of aircraft handling experience so thoroughly engraved into my brain.
 
Thanks for your insights. I think you hit the nail on the head.

Although I've not flown one myself, the -9 is reportedly nowhere near as "twitchy" as a 6/7/8, it's supposed to be quite stable while still being responsive and have noticeably heavier stick forces than the others. The 4-seat RV-10 also is not twitchy at all, I've flown a -10 and it was very easy and pure bliss for a big 4-seater, waaay much lighter on the controls and responsive than my old Cherokee. I was told it is just a little lighter on the controls than a Bonanza, but I've never flown a Bo, so I don't know how they feel.

Saying a -6 is as easy to fly as a Cherokee is a bit of a stretch. It's "easy" as in the control stick forces are very light and you don't have to push any controls hard, but it is much more "difficult" to fly than a Cherokee in that you have to be very gentle on the controls and be on your toes, quick thinking, and paying attention all the time prepared to make brisk changes in pitch or roll when needed, and to not chase the airspeed needle coming down final. Yeah, you can definitely say a -6 can be considered "twitchy".

I flew a Cherokee for 10 years and 800 hours, and you can basically turn your brain off in the landing flare and the plane will land itself just fine. In the RV-6, you're flying the thing until you shut the engine off. The old saying "You're not done flying, till you're tying..." really applies.

Also a Cherokee has a 30 degree per second roll rate... the RV-6 is about 150 degrees per second roll rate. To stand a Cherokee up on a wingtip in a really steep bank takes both hands on the yoke (or better yet one hand on each yoke so you can get more leverage :lol:) and a mighty heave. The -6 just needs one finger and your thumb on the stick and a slight flick of the wrist and you're at an 80-90 degree bank like *right-this-split-second* :yes:.

Once you've become accustomed to how an RV-6 flies, then yes it is "easy", but as I've mentioned elsewhere in the past... my transitioning from the Cherokee to the two-seater RVs (mostly -4, -6, -8) was a lot like learning how to fly an airplane all over again for the first few hours until I got the hang of the extreme nimbleness and responsiveness after so many years and hours of flying a wallowing pig of a spamcan and having that kind of aircraft handling experience so thoroughly engraved into my brain.
 

I know this touches a nerve. ;) Two questions - 1) What's your experience providing transition training in high performance tailwheel aerobatic planes to high time or airline types who have never touched a tailwheel? Many people take around 8 hours to get their tailwheel endorsement. You can solo a zero hour pilot in an RV or other "easy" tailwheel pilot in the same amount of time. This is not a new concept among tailwheel instructors. 2) What is it about sitting in an airliner with your arms folded for thousands of hours that builds stick and rudder skills, making one better equipped to transition into a tailwheel airplane? Look, I know airline flying is a skilled profession and discipline unto itself. Not saying otherwise. But we're talking about pure stick and rudder skills and hand-eye coordination. Thinking airline drivers are better equipped is sorta like saying the professional bus driver is more likely to quickly pick up rally racing skills than someone off the street. Bad example, bus drivers have more "wheel time". :lol:

Like I said - Budd Davisson who's the most experienced Pitts instructor in the world says high-time airline types take the most time. Ever thought about why that may be?

Saying a -6 is as easy to fly as a Cherokee is a bit of a stretch. It's "easy" as in the control stick forces are very light and you don't have to push any controls hard, but it is much more "difficult" to fly than a Cherokee in that you have to be very gentle on the controls and be on your toes, quick thinking, and paying attention all the time prepared to make brisk changes in pitch or roll when needed, and to not chase the airspeed needle coming down final. Yeah, you can definitely say a -6 can be considered "twitchy".

The problem is that you are looking at things from the perspective of someone who first learned to fly in a dumptruck and then went through that hamfisted phase in the RV. Guess what, brand new pilots will hamfist a Cherokee at first too. Then they quickly adjust. Same for any airplane. The zero hour pilot doesn't know the difference between what we experienced pilots consider to be "responsive" or "twitchy" vs. not. They will immediately adjust to the "responsive" airplane just as the zero hour pilot immediately adjusts to the Cherokee. Do we forget that the military uses "high performance" airplanes as primary trainers??

I flew a Cherokee for 10 years and 800 hours, and you can basically turn your brain off in the landing flare and the plane will land itself just fine. In the RV-6, you're flying the thing until you shut the engine off. The old saying "You're not done flying, till you're tying..." really applies.

Tailwheel is a separate issue. Substitute RV6A for Cherokee.

Also a Cherokee has a 30 degree per second roll rate... the RV-6 is about 150 degrees per second roll rate.

You may want to get out your video camera. A Cherokee rolls a whole lot faster than 30 degrees per second, and an RV-6 does not roll 150. Cherokee can roll about 55-60 degree/sec. I've seen them do aileron rolls. It does not take 12 seconds to get through an aileron roll. ;) And your RV-6 is more like 120 max. Go accurately time a complete roll.

Once you've become accustomed to how an RV-6 flies, then yes it is "easy", but as I've mentioned elsewhere in the past... my transitioning from the Cherokee to the two-seater RVs (mostly -4, -6, -8) was a lot like learning how to fly an airplane all over again for the first few hours until I got the hang of the extreme nimbleness and responsiveness after so many years and hours of flying a wallowing pig of a spamcan and having that kind of aircraft handling experience so thoroughly engraved into my brain.

I think you just made my point. :)
 
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I know this touches a nerve. ;) Two questions - 1) What's your experience providing transition training in high performance tailwheel aerobatic planes to high time or airline types who have never touched a tailwheel?

I've done my fair share of tailwheel check outs and endorsements over my life. Some of us have had pilot's certificates and CFI's longer than some of you have been alive.

Many people take around 8 hours to get their tailwheel endorsement. You can solo a zero hour pilot in an RV or other "easy" tailwheel pilot in the same amount of time. This is not a new concept among tailwheel instructors.

Again, I started teaching tailwheel transition 30+ years ago and was flying TW aircraft another 10 years before that. How about you?


2) What is it about sitting in an airliner with your arms folded for thousands of hours that builds stick and rudder skills, making one better equipped to transition into a tailwheel airplane?

Hate to break it to you, but this tired old sterotype that you guys keep promulgating that once someone steps into a cockpit of a transport jet they somehow lose all of their previous flying ability is bunk. I've flown with lots of other pilots that were active GA pilots in their off time. Back in the last decade I flew for an airline, owned a helicopter business, owned several twin engine airplanes and a single engine airplanes, taught in helicopters, airplanes and flew B-727's all at the same time.



Look, I know airline flying is a skilled profession and discipline unto itself. Not saying otherwise. But we're talking about pure stick and rudder skills and hand-eye coordination.

So, now pilots who fly transports don't have stick and rudder skills or hand-eye coordination? Really? :rolleyes2:

So how do all of these talentless pilots manage to fly, or take off and land these jets? Or do you believe they just sit back and push a button and it happens?

So have you ever landed a plane that weighs over 100,000 pounds in a gusty 25-35 not crosswind? Ever consider what it takes to stay on centerline and land in the touch down zone and not sideload the mains? Do you honestly believe there is no "stick and rudder" skills involved or "eye-hand coordination" involved? :rolleyes2:


Thinking airline drivers are better equipped is sorta like saying the professional bus driver is more likely to quickly pick up rally racing skills than someone off the street. Bad example, bus drivers have more "wheel time". :lol:

Thinking low time CFI's have all the answers is like, well, really ridiculous.
:lol:
 
So how do all of these talentless pilots manage to fly, or take off and land these jets? Or do you believe they just sit back and push a button and it happens?

Never said they were talentless of lacking in skill handling an airliner. Still, not sure how that experience puts them ahead of a low-time pilot transitioning into an RV or Pitts.

You're still avoiding the question - why do you think Budd Davisson's experience is what it is? If you disbelieve, I'm sure he'd be happy chat. Can find his info at airbum.com :) And don't tell me you've BTDT with what he's done.
 
Never said they were talentless of lacking in skill handling an airliner.

Yes you did.
2) What is it about sitting in an airliner with your arms folded for thousands of hours that builds stick and rudder skills,

Please tell us how flying an airliner diminishes "stick and rudder skills"? Please enlighten us on how transport jets don't require any stick and rudder skills?


Still, not sure how that experience puts them ahead of a low-time pilot transitioning into an RV or Pitts.

You're going around in circles trying to make an inane point.


You're still avoiding the question - why do you think Budd Davisson's experience is what it is?

Don't know the guy. That's his opinion based upon what he has done. And you aren't Budd Davisson. I'm sure if he wanted to make a point in this forum he is capable of speaking for himself.

Yet another example of "I read on the internet" for your source of information.

And speaking of avoiding the question:

Again, I started teaching tailwheel transition 30+ years ago and was flying TW aircraft another 10 years before that. How about you?

And don't tell me you've BTDT with what he's done.

Please show me where I made such a statement. I stated what I've done (a very brief part of my career) but you seem to have problems backing up your background with the exception of "I read on the internet". :rolleyes2:
 
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Please tell us how flying an airliner diminishes "stick and rudder skills"? Please enlighten us on how transport jets don't require any stick and rudder skills?

You are the one going in circles around my point - I'm not talking about airline pilots maintaining their skills in AIRLINERS. I'm talking about how does flying an airliner relate to flying a tiny little tailwheel airplane. Your premise is obviously that they have an advantage here. I guess we just disagree.

And how many landings does the Airbus captain do a year? I'd hazard a guess that the average weekend warrior does more. So it seems the weekend warrior maintains just as much or more stick-and-rudder skill as the airline pilot. Rudder skills? How many minutes per flight do you actively engage the rudder? Again...the context is flying aircraft that are as far on the opposite end of the spectrum as airliners.

I'm done going in circles. Yes, I get that airline pilots have large egos and overrate the value of their slight bit of hands on time per flight in the context of general stick-and-rudder flying skills. It's sorta like the military trained guys who think because they learned how to do a simple non-precision loop and a roll in a T-33 during basic, that they have superior general aerobatic skills and knowledge. I've seen plenty of that attitude too.
 
The problem is that you are looking at things from the perspective of someone who first learned to fly in a dumptruck and then went through that hamfisted phase in the RV. Guess what, brand new pilots will hamfist a Cherokee at first too. Then they quickly adjust. Same for any airplane. The zero hour pilot doesn't know the difference between what we experienced pilots consider to be "responsive" or "twitchy" vs. not. They will immediately adjust to the "responsive" airplane just as the zero hour pilot immediately adjusts to the Cherokee. Do we forget that the military uses "high performance" airplanes as primary trainers??

This is true... there have certainly been a number of new pilots have gone from zero to PP-ASEL in their newly-built RVs. I just think that it's not that wise of a thing to do myself. In fact I think everyone should start off in a J3 Cub first IMHO :thumbsup:

The military's newest primary trainer... the T6 Texan II may certainly be "high performance", but it handles like that dump truck. Of course, I have never flown the real deal, but I did get to fly both the T-38 and the T6-II simulators at Sheppard AFB a couple years ago. The stick and rudder pedal forces in the T6-II sim were enormous, and I'm pretty sure the sim accurately represents the control feel of the real aircraft. The T-38 sim, by comparison was much easier to "fly". My arm and leg muscles were sore after a half hour of flying the T6-II sim, and it was not an "easy to fly" deal at all... apparently designed to handle that way on purpose to help "weed out" students who cannot master it well enough in the time allotted in the training course.

A Cherokee rolls a whole lot faster than 30 degrees per second, and an RV-6 does not roll 150. Cherokee can roll about 55-60 degree/sec.
30 degrees per second for the hershey wing Cherokee 140 is the rate published in Piper Owner magazine some years ago. A taperwing Warrior, especially the 1974 model with Frise ailerons, rolls much quicker. That 50-60 deg/sec is probably accurate for that model with the different wing. After flying a 140 for a decade, I tend to believe that 30 deg/sec rate is probably pretty realistic and I would not try to roll one myself, as the nose drops way too quickly and a split-S is sure to ensue unless a Bob Hoover or Matt Yonkin or equivalent pilot is at the controls. Many years ago, some fellow was observed rolling a Warrior over Lake Altus, Oklahoma, not too far from here. He rolled it several times before plunging it into the lake killing himself and his passenger. The autopsy report found alcohol and drugs in his bloodstream.

Van's published roll rate for the RV-7 is 140 deg/sec. A -6 rolls quicker than a -7 due to the shorter wings. I could not find a published roll rate for the -6 but I know mine rolls *much* quicker than even the RV-8 in which I've done more rolls in than any other RV model.
 
How did we start talking about a pitts?
In my uninformed opinion, I have to go with rotor and wing on this. However I think this whole 0hr vs 20k hr argument is irrelevant.
 
You are the one going in circles around my point - I'm not talking about airline pilots maintaining their skills in AIRLINERS. I'm talking about how does flying an airliner relate to flying a tiny little tailwheel airplane. Your premise is obviously that they have an advantage here.

Basic flying skills. Your premise is once they enter an airline cockpit those skills disappear. According to you once someone learns to ride a motorbike they no longer can safely ride a bicycle. :rolleyes2: :lol:


I guess we just disagree.

Yep.


And how many landings does the Airbus captain do a year? I'd hazard a guess that the average weekend warrior does more.

Let's see, this last month I flew about 80 hours and my TO and Landings are 48.

So it seems the weekend warrior maintains just as much or more stick-and-rudder skill as the airline pilot.

Please tell us how you are deducing that information with no real knowledge of half of it?

Rudder skills? How many minutes per flight do you actively engage the rudder?

Engage the rudder? Well let's see, we need the rudder for takeoff and we also need it to land the airplane. During a cross country flight in a SEL airplane how often do you "engage" the rudder?

Again...the context is flying aircraft that are as far on the opposite end of the spectrum as airliners.

Again, you can't grasp this as you continue to intertwine both.


I'm done going in circles. Yes, I get that airline pilots have large egos and overrate the value of their slight bit of hands on time per flight in the context of general stick-and-rudder flying skills. It's sorta like the military trained guys who think because they learned how to do a simple non-precision loop and a roll in a T-33 during basic, that they have superior general aerobatic skills and knowledge. I've seen plenty of that attitude too.

And I've seen plenty of low time young CFI's who think they're god's gift to aviation and have all of the answers and think they can speak authoritatively on subjects they have no clue about.

But we have to understand you "read it on the internet". :lol:
 
Engage the rudder? Well let's see, we need the rudder for takeoff and we also need it to land the airplane. During a cross country flight in a SEL airplane how often do you "engage" the rudder?

Oh I do turns and stuff sometimes too. On rare occasion I even work up the courage to do stalls and spins. :D

30 degrees per second for the hershey wing Cherokee 140 is the rate published in Piper Owner magazine some years ago. A taperwing Warrior, especially the 1974 model with Frise ailerons, rolls much quicker. That 50-60 deg/sec is probably accurate for that model with the different wing. After flying a 140 for a decade, I tend to believe that 30 deg/sec rate is probably pretty realistic and I would not try to roll one myself, as the nose drops way too quickly and a split-S is sure to ensue unless a Bob Hoover or Matt Yonkin or equivalent pilot is at the controls. Many years ago, some fellow was observed rolling a Warrior over Lake Altus, Oklahoma, not too far from here. He rolled it several times before plunging it into the lake killing himself and his passenger. The autopsy report found alcohol and drugs in his bloodstream.

Van's published roll rate for the RV-7 is 140 deg/sec. A -6 rolls quicker than a -7 due to the shorter wings. I could not find a published roll rate for the -6 but I know mine rolls *much* quicker than even the RV-8 in which I've done more rolls in than any other RV model.

This is way OT, and unimportant, but published roll rates are often optimistic. An RV-6 could roll 150 deg/sec with full aileron at Vne, but realistic "gentlemen's acro" airspeeds will result in more like 110-120 degrees/sec for a full roll with full aileron. You can even roughtly time it in cockpit with a stop watch.

Regarding the Cherokee, I used to watch a Hershey bar Cherokee do aileron rolls. The duration of the roll worked out to around 55-60 degrees a second. And this is NOT a recommendation to do acro in a Cherokee, but you sure don't need to be Bob Hoover or Matt Younkin to safely do aerobatics in non-aerobatic airplanes. Yes, few could ever fly just like Hoover, but you don't need to be Hoover to easily and safely do acro in certain "non-acro" planes without exceeding the airframe limitations. It's not hard to get any airplane to safely wallow through an aerobatic maneuver. And Matt is good, but I personally know many aerobatic pilots with better and much more extensive aerobatic skills...they're just not famous airshow pilots. Not to take anything away form Matt, or airshow performers, but your average airshow display does not involve a high degree of aerobatic skill, because that's not a requirement to entertain airshow crowds. Super skill is not necessarily what they're there to show. Most airshow displays are very primitive in the technical skill department - Julie Clark for example...and any warbird acro. John Mohr and Rob Holland and Patty Wagstaff display a lot of skill.
 
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You are the one going in circles around my point - I'm not talking about airline pilots maintaining their skills in AIRLINERS. I'm talking about how does flying an airliner relate to flying a tiny little tailwheel airplane.

The airliner has the same controls (basically) as the small airplane. Roll, Pitch and Yaw, and engine power.

In landing they behave similarly. If the wind is from the right a correction is made to align with the centerline and pitch is applied along with engine power. Both airplanes are flown at a speed which will deliver them to the touchdown point. Both airplanes will touch down and roll out to a stop. Both airplanes will be affected by the environment (wind, temperature, humidity, etc). Same can be said for the takeoff.

Both airplanes will require a skill to land properly as each has it's own characteristics. One isn't superior over the other, just different.

Acquired flying skills from ones past (GA small trainers, Military trainers, etc) will be a factor in how one handles a transition from a large cockpit to a tailwheel SEL cockpit.
 
The airliner has the same controls (basically) as the small airplane. Roll, Pitch and Yaw, and engine power.

In landing they behave similarly. If the wind is from the right a correction is made to align with the centerline and pitch is applied along with engine power. Both airplanes are flown at a speed which will deliver them to the touchdown point. Both airplanes will touch down and roll out to a stop. Both airplanes will be affected by the environment (wind, temperature, humidity, etc). Same can be said for the takeoff.

Both airplanes will require a skill to land properly as each has it's own characteristics. One isn't superior over the other, just different.

Acquired flying skills from ones past (GA small trainers, Military trainers, etc) will be a factor in how one handles a transition from a large cockpit to a tailwheel SEL cockpit.

Totally agree with all that. Your bolded point is basically what I'm trying to say. Different. The difference shows up at transition time, whether you're solely an airline pilot transitioning to an RV8, or an RV8 pilot transitioning into an airliner...ha.
 
So it seems the weekend warrior maintains just as much or more stick-and-rudder skill as the airline pilot. Rudder skills? How many minutes per flight do you actively engage the rudder? Again...the context is flying aircraft that are as far on the opposite end of the spectrum as airliners.

Oh I do turns and stuff sometimes too. On rare occasion I even work up the courage to do stalls and spins. :D

On a cross country? You missed the point, since you were comparing flying a small GA airplane and a large jet and as you put it, engage the rudders and the comparison. Since we don't take airliners out to do "stalls and spins" and needlessly just fly around, let's put it in the correct context shall we? :rolleyes:
 
What should I look for with reguards to the POH coming with a used experimental?
 
What should I look for with reguards to the POH coming with a used experimental?

Make sure that it comes with one or order one from the manufacturer. Most likely it isn't going to be as detailed as a certified aircraft especially in the performance category.
 
The military's newest primary trainer... the T6 Texan II may certainly be "high performance", but it handles like that dump truck. Of course, I have never flown the real deal, but I did get to fly both the T-38 and the T6-II simulators at Sheppard AFB a couple years ago. The stick and rudder pedal forces in the T6-II sim were enormous, and I'm pretty sure the sim accurately represents the control feel of the real aircraft. The T-38 sim, by comparison was much easier to "fly". My arm and leg muscles were sore after a half hour of flying the T6-II sim, and it was not an "easy to fly" deal at all... apparently designed to handle that way on purpose to help "weed out" students who cannot master it well enough in the time allotted in the training course.

That is the first time I've ever heard anyone refer to a Texan II as a dump truck. I've flown both the T-6 and T-38; my current assignment is as a Texan II IP and FCF pilot. I've also flown a Pitts S2C and an RV-6 for comparison. Your assessment of the USAF primary and secondary trainers handling based on your sim experience is inaccurate. The assymetric G-load limitation of the Texan II wheels up is +4.7Gs. You don't get to exceed roll rates at 4.7Gs by having dump truck handling qualities. You can't assymetrically overload a dump truck; it just can't get there. Full stick deflection at Va exceeds 220deg/sec. Oh that's right, higher roll rate than an RV-6. This is a 6500# airplane we're talking about rolling like that mind you..

Not only is it not a dump truck, it was never designed in any way to simulate that condition. You may be confusing it with the T-1A Jayhawk. That's a dump truck, designed like a dump truck, complete with spoiler roll control to purposely and specifically simulate dump trucks. The Texan II was designed to simulate a jet aircraft by the incorporation of a single speed constant speed propeller (2000RPM), which removes the condition/RPM lever, along with the incorporation of a TAD system that automatically compensates for torque and P-factor (albeit does so poorly) on the rudder input, again simulating turbojet/fan thrust characteristics. It is otherwise a pretty nimble little sports car. Whoever gave you that information about the design goals of the aircraft probably got his wings on the inside of a Cracker jack box.

Is it balanced the way a Pitts is? Of course not. But the controls are pretty freggin' light. The sims don't do it justice. They're not totally worthless, but the feedback isn't quite there. The T-38 is hydraulically actuated on the controls and is quite pitch heavy, as it should be. It's a heavy ass jet compared to the T-6. The Talon roll rate is insane because it literally has no wings. I consider the 38 to be more control heavy than the Texan on the pitch axis. It's like a worn rickety 1980s Porsche: all top end and no cornering LOL. I can do a whole acro sequence on a Tex II inside the area of a T-38 loop.

Now back to your regular programming.
 
Thanks hindsight. I don't really buy the whole evaluating a plane based on a sim.
 
And be sure the zoom climb charts are included. They are hell to duplicate.

Make sure that it comes with one or order one from the manufacturer. Most likely it isn't going to be as detailed as a certified aircraft especially in the performance category.
 
I went for a ride with the airline pilot (American) that used to live across the street from me in my little LSA taildragger. He had, at one time, flown a Cub - but that was quite a few years ago.

What impressed me the most was the final / landing - he had never been in the airplane before, but he made it come down the final like it was on rails. His landing was better than most of mine too.

On the other hand, he did make some not so complementary comments about the stick and rudder skills of some of the other A.A. pilots.
 
I went for a ride with the airline pilot (American) that used to live across the street from me in my little LSA taildragger. He had, at one time, flown a Cub - but that was quite a few years ago.

What impressed me the most was the final / landing - he had never been in the airplane before, but he made it come down the final like it was on rails. His landing was better than most of mine too.

On the other hand, he did make some not so complementary comments about the stick and rudder skills of some of the other A.A. pilots.

AA has well over 10,000 pilots so there is a huge sampling of all sorts of backgrounds among the pilot ranks.

Like anything else you will find guys that are "naturals" at flying and then again those who view it as a mechanical process. I've had my share of both sharing the cockpit over my career.
 
Maybe I should put this on a new tread...

Has anyone here flow a velocity. I'm not a huge fan of the canard design but I've heard it's very stable. It also has efficacy of a two place plane but with 4 seats. There seems to be a few of these on the market at comparable prices to RVs.

Thoughts?
 
Maybe I should put this on a new tread...

Has anyone here flow a velocity. I'm not a huge fan of the canard design but I've heard it's very stable. It also has efficacy of a two place plane but with 4 seats. There seems to be a few of these on the market at comparable prices to RVs.

Thoughts?

They're cross country airplanes. Not really an acrobatic plane and they use up plenty of runway, so not really short field, grass strip kind of planes. They are efficient and have an increased level of safety though because they can't stall, so they can't spin. I wouldn't think they would meet your mission requirements as stated earlier. I have not flown one though, perhaps some owner will come along and tell me I'm all wrong about them.
 
They're cross country airplanes. Not really an acrobatic plane and they use up plenty of runway, so not really short field, grass strip kind of planes. They are efficient and have an increased level of safety though because they can't stall, so they can't spin. I wouldn't think they would meet your mission requirements as stated earlier. I have not flown one though, perhaps some owner will come along and tell me I'm all wrong about them.

That's basically what I had gathered. Seems like an RV-6a is the best choice for us. Time to start keeping an eye on barnstormers,
 
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