Vans RV or Glasair for low time pilot

[Tmpendergrass]

Hi all,
My dad and I are looking to purchase an aircraft. We are both low time pilots (<150hr, no ifr). We like the Diamond da20 but the lack of IFR certification is limiting if we want to get are instrument ratings at some point. A steam gauge da40 looks nice but we don't need 4 seats and the extra fuel cost. A vans rv-6a/7a or glasair 1ft of 2ft fits our mission perfectly but I'm worried that they may not be ideal for low tim pilots like ourselves. Also I'm a little wary of owning an experimental build by someone else. Also how hard is it to find a mechanic who can do condition inspections. Would love to hear you guys thoughts.
Thanks,
T

 

[FORANE]

Vans would be easier transition. Both planes within the capability of a 150 hour pilot who receives competent transition training. Glasair will require more runway which may be an issue on shorter fields.
For experimentals you do not need an IA for the conditional inspection. All you need is either the builder with repairmans certificate or any A&P may do it. Plenty of A&P's out there, but best to find one familiar with type.

 

[poadeleted20]

Both planes within the capability of a 150 hour pilot who receives competent transition training.

Agreed. The trick is finding an appropriately qualified and experienced instructor. I'm pretty believe Van's (or the RV owners group) has lists, and I think Glasair does, too.

 

[steingar]

I tend to ward folks away from experimentals as fist time airplane purchases. I'll get flamed by half the board for so doing, but owning an airplane isn't like owning a car. There are numerous issues involved, like hangar access, which airport to base out of, mechanic (has to go once a year at least) and others. Experimentals involve an entirely different set of issues, including whether or not the fool thing was put together correctly. I'd say get something inexpensive and certified for your first airplane and plan to transition to the experimental down the road.

Not to say even a word against AB/Ex aircraft, they can provide a truly wonderful ownership experience.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

At least one pilot has started out from zero hours in a similar aircraft.

I had no problem finding an A&P for my condition inspections. Find the A&P first and have them perform the pre-buy so there are no big surprises at the first condition inspection.

Look closely at the fuel / electric systems - this is where homebuilders tend to come up short. Plan on putting some time / money into cleaning up these systems.

Oh, and i would advise against getting a type certified aircraft as a first airplane due to all the maintenance / part cost / availability issues as well as the difficulty determining exactly how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

 

[RoscoeT]

I tend to ward folks away from experimentals as fist time airplane purchases. I'll get flamed by half the board for so doing, but owning an airplane isn't like owning a car. There are numerous issues involved, like hangar access, which airport to base out of, mechanic (has to go once a year at least) and others. Experimentals involve an entirely different set of issues, including whether or not the fool thing was put together correctly. I'd say get something inexpensive and certified for your first airplane and plan to transition to the experimental down the road.

But all the spam can ownership hours in the world will do little to adjust one to the particulars of a specific Experimental aircraft. Buy what you want - you'll learn what's needed to own it. Each airplane requires you to learn new things, whether it's TC'd or E/AB.

 

[mike d]

I had about 100 hours when I bought my RV-6A. They are very easy to fly and you should have no real issues if you get transition training.

The biggest thing will be getting ahead of the plane. It is fast so you need to get into the approach a little earlier than say a C152. But not too bad.

 

[Tmpendergrass]

Thanks for the responses guys!
My main concern in owning an experimental is upkeep complexities(as a couple of you mentioned).

Does anybody have a ballpark for what insurance cost would be for us (2 150hr pilots)? I've seen lost of info re transition training on vans forums etc but not as much on the glasair side.

It seems like there is a much better vans community which makes me more comfortable with owning one. There seems to be alot of glasair 1s for sale under 40k. This seems odd as a 6a starts at almost twice that.

 

[FORANE]

Thanks for the responses guys!
My main concern in owning an experimental is upkeep complexities(as a couple of you mentioned).

Does anybody have a ballpark for what insurance cost would be for us (2 150hr pilots)? I've seen lost of info re transition training on vans forums etc but not as much on the glasair side.

It seems like there is a much better vans community which makes me more comfortable with owning one. There seems to be alot of glasair 1s for sale under 40k. This seems odd as a 6a starts at almost twice that.

Support both community and factory, ease of flying, better slow speed handing qualities, more traditional building material...all reasons for popularity of the RV line.
I would recommend contacting insurance agents to get exact figures and requirements. Some may require not only transition training but annual recurrent training as well.

 

[mike d]

insurance will require transition training. Either 5 or 10 hours for each of you.

Insurance is based on hull value but I am just over $1K/year on my -6A

 

[Tmpendergrass]

insurance will require transition training. Either 5 or 10 hours for each of you.

Insurance is based on hull value but I am just over $1K/year on my -6A

Thanks good to know

 

[Velocity173]

I think I had around 350 hrs when I bought my Glasair I Ft. It was a step up from the Grumman and I admit I was a bit nervous the first solo flight. Once you get the hang of the increased speed on final and sensitive controls it's a joy to fly.

Unless you're small I'd opt for the II. 39 inch cabin in the I.

Insurance for 50 grand coverage is around $1,000 per year.

 

[CJones]

I had < 200 hrs when I soloed the RV-7A. Transition training is the key. It's not a hard a/c to fly, it's just 'different' than the CessPiper breed and you want a competent instructor there with you when you rotate with the same force required to rotate a 172 and find yourself in a 45* climbing stall on takeoff.

I later did my IR training and checkride in the 7A.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Both are NOT ideal IFR platforms, if your main mission is IFR I'd lean towards a 150,172,182, PA28, tripacer, Viking etc.

I would not buy a non-RG glass, just isn't what the plane is sposed to be, it's like putting off road tires on a vette.

So if it's just a RV or fixed gear glass, I'd go RV

 

[Tmpendergrass]

Re: Vans RV or Glasair for low time pilothttp://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/images/

Both are NOT ideal IFR platforms, if your main mission is IFR I'd lean towards a 150,172,182, PA28, tripacer, Viking etc.

I would not buy a non-RG glass, just isn't what the plane is sposed to be, it's like putting off road tires on a vette.

So if it's just a RV or fixed gear glass, I'd go RV

IFR is not the main mission. Just want to have the option of getting instrument rating so I can break though the marine layer in the mornings here in cali.

I kinda figured RV is the better bet since Id rather not deal with the added cost and complexity of RG glasair. We don't have the need to fly at 200+ kts just somthing that will be faster than a 172 while not burning much gas:wink2:

Thanks again guys!
T

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Well if you're getting your IFR ticket in it, I'd have a vertical card compass, LOC/GS, current pitot static and xpdr signoff, standard layout 6 pack with good gyros, or solidstate glass (some great glass available for experimentals), OAT and if you're spending the money find one with a WAAS GPS.

 

[Goofy]

Flying a $40,000 spamcan would have cured me from flying forever. At 250 hours over 33 years I was totally burnt out on slow, boring, expensive rentals and owning one would have cured me of flying. Bought a hot experimental and put 100 hrs. a year on it for several years traveling all over the country.... Yee haa....
Not tired of it yet. Follow your dream and don't waste it on slow and boring. Just get good transition training, and maintain it like your life depends on it.....

 

[Tmpendergrass]

Well if you're getting your IFR ticket in it, I'd have a vertical card compass, LOC/GS, current pitot static and xpdr signoff, standard layout 6 pack with good gyros, or solidstate glass (some great glass available for experimentals), OAT and if you're spending the money find one with a WAAS GPS.

I've have quite a few hours in a 172 with G1000 and I have to say that for VFR I prefer steam gauges. If I decide to get my IFR ticket, I'll defiantly put cutting edge avionics in it. For now I'm not that concerned about avionics. Good VFR night setup plus my iPad is perfect.

 

[Tmpendergrass]

Thanks for all the responses! You guys have been very helpful.:wink2:

 

[NineThreeKilo]

I've have quite a few hours in a 172 with G1000 and I have to say that for VFR I prefer steam gauges. If I decide to get my IFR ticket, I'll defiantly put cutting edge avionics in it. For now I'm not that concerned about avionics. Good VFR night setup plus my iPad is perfect.

I agree 100%, it better to learn on steam.

HOWEVER its cheaper to buy a plane with it in it, then start paying the avionics man after the fact.

 

[dans2992]

Flying a $40,000 spamcan would have cured me from flying forever. At 250 hours over 33 years I was totally burnt out on slow, boring, expensive rentals and owning one would have cured me of flying. Bought a hot experimental and put 100 hrs. a year on it for several years traveling all over the country.... Yee haa....
Not tired of it yet. Follow your dream and don't waste it on slow and boring. Just get good transition training, and maintain it like your life depends on it.....

What kind of aircraft?

 

[Dav8or]

Re: Vans RV or Glasair for low time pilothttp://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/images/

IFR is not the main mission. Just want to have the option of getting instrument rating so I can break though the marine layer in the mornings here in cali.

I kinda figured RV is the better bet since Id rather not deal with the added cost and complexity of RG glasair. We don't have the need to fly at 200+ kts just somthing that will be faster than a 172 while not burning much gas:wink2:

Thanks again guys!
T

Given the desire for the IR, the fact that you don't need great speed and you don't want RG, get the RV-9. If you are insisting on the experimental world, I think the RV-9 would be ideal for your mission.

 

[Tmpendergrass]

Re: Vans RV or Glasair for low time pilothttp://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/images/

Given the desire for the IR, the fact that you don't need great speed and you don't want RG, get the RV-9. If you are insisting on the experimental world, I think the RV-9 would be ideal for your mission.

I looked into the RV-9 but gentlemens aerobatics are more of a priority than a great IFR platform

 

[Geico266]

Thanks for the responses guys!
My main concern in owning an experimental is upkeep complexities(as a couple of you mentioned).

Does anybody have a ballpark for what insurance cost would be for us (2 150hr pilots)? I've seen lost of info re transition training on vans forums etc but not as much on the glasair side.

It seems like there is a much better vans community which makes me more comfortable with owning one. There seems to be alot of glasair 1s for sale under 40k. This seems odd as a 6a starts at almost twice that.

What is the stall speed of a Glasair -v- RV?

Not sure what you mean by maintenance complexities.

 

[Ted]

I would buy the faster one. You can always pull power back, it's hard to go past full throttle.

 

[Velocity173]

What is the stall speed of a Glasair -v- RV?

Not sure what you mean by maintenance complexities.

Stall speed is overrated. I eat RVs for breakfast. Anytime those yahoos come into my home field for a weak overhead, I scramble and do a "zoom" climb to intercept in less than 45 secs! By the time I reach the end of the runway, I'm at 10 ft and already doing 150 kts. No comparison in speed. Not to mention a Glasair looks fast just sitting there.

 

[RoscoeT]

Stall speed is overrated. I eat RVs for breakfast. Anytime those yahoos come into my home field for a weak overhead, I scramble and do a "zoom" climb to intercept in less than 45 secs! By the time I reach the end of the runway, I'm at 10 ft and already doing 150 kts. No comparison in speed. Not to mention a Glasair looks fast just sitting there.

Would you land your Velocity on a 700' strip of grass? Depends on what you want in an airplane. Rutan planes are fast too. Rugged, short-field airplanes, they are not. RVs do both pretty well, which is why they are so popular...among many other reasons.

 

[Velocity173]

Would you land your Velocity on a 700' strip of grass? Depends on what you want in an airplane. Rutan planes are fast too. Rugged, short-field airplanes, they are not. RVs do both pretty well, which is why they are so popular...among many other reasons.

How many 700 ft grass strips do RVs regularly go into? Maybe in Alaska.

 

[Tmpendergrass]

Stall speed is overrated. I eat RVs for breakfast. Anytime those yahoos come into my home field for a weak overhead, I scramble and do a "zoom" climb to intercept in less than 45 secs! By the time I reach the end of the runway, I'm at 10 ft and already doing 150 kts. No comparison in speed. Not to mention a Glasair looks fast just sitting there.

What is maintenance like on a composite airframe vs aluminum? I want some thing thats easy to fly at low speed, were not "full time" pilots so we don't want a "full time" airplane. Cruise speed is good, but not at the expense of very high final approach speeds.

PS
let's not get into this whole zoom climb discussion like some of the other threads on here

 

[RoscoeT]

How many 700 ft grass strips do RVs regularly go into? Maybe in Alaska.

Point is capability...and I did it a fair amount in the RV-4 years back. There's an old video of Van landing his RV-4 in about 400 ft. Do you consider 1200' short? Big yawn in an RV.

 

[Tmpendergrass]

Also there are a few airports that we'd like to visit e.g. monument valley. That getting a glasair into would be a little sketch

 

[Velocity173]

What is maintenance like on a composite airframe vs aluminum? I want some thing thats easy to fly at low speed, were not "full time" pilots so we don't want a "full time" airplane. Cruise speed is good, but not at the expense of very high final approach speeds.

PS
let's not get into this whole zoom climb discussion like some of the other threads on here

Apples and Oranges. An RV-6A/7A and a Glasair II FT are evenly matched it just depends on composite or metal preferences. Maintenance is roughly the same.

In a Glasair the structure won't corrode, doesn't have a stress memory, slightly better speed and IMO just looks better than an RV.

An RV has way better support groups out there and the company has far more kits than Glasair and the stall speed / short field performance is better. Oh yeah you don't have to worry about painting your aircraft white or getting struck by lightning in an RV.

As I said, while the price for a I FT is appetizing, there just isn't much room for two adults. 90 % of my flights are single pilot so I have plenty of room.

 

[Velocity173]

Point is capability...and I did it a fair amount in the RV-4 years back. There's an old video of Van landing his RV-4 in about 400 ft. Do you consider 1200' short? Big yawn in an RV.

1200 ft is plenty. Book says I can get off in 390 ft solo and requires 775 to clear a 50 ft obstacle.

 

[Tmpendergrass]

Is the small size what make the value of a 1ft so low? Or is there an Issue with these planes that I'm not aware of?

One of the things that appeals to me about vans is the larger pool of A&Ps who know the RVs well.

 

[Tmpendergrass]

I agree that the glasairs look way better, but the rv-6a seems like a better all around package.

 

[RoscoeT]

1200 ft is plenty. Book says I can get off in 390 ft solo and requires 775 to clear a 50 ft obstacle.

I meant landing. Not trying to argue about the capabilities of your airplane, since I have no experience with them...I just have a good feeling it's not as good at short field ops. Lots of people like more than just pure speed.

 

[Neal Howard]

I looked into the RV-9 but gentlemens aerobatics are more of a priority than a great IFR platform

If gentlemen's acro is that important of a priority to you, then you want a tandem RV. You're supposed to do acro with the stick in your right hand and the throttle in your left, and sitting on the centerline of the plane... just like God intended. This advice brought to you by a guy who owns and flies a side-by-side RV-6 and has flown both the RV-4 and RV-8 quite a bit

You'll want an RV-8 for frequently flying with two aboard, or an RV-4 if it'll mostly just be flown solo, with only the occasional passenger. The rear seat in a -4 is like an instrument of torture, but I've managed to spend a few hours in one, even learned how to land an RV taildragger first from the back seat of a -4 before everyone told me that you couldn't/shouldn't be doing that... and in retrospect I'd have to say they're right!

The -8 can be had in a tricycle gear config as the RV-8A, but the -4 is taildragger only. IMHO, the taildragger is the only way to go in an RV. That's the main reason why I pursued a tailwheel endorsement in the first place, to fly tailwheel RVs. It wasn't that hard at all, and a tailwheel RV is easier to land and keep straight on the rollout than even a Cub. The hardest part about transitioning to the RVs (from ten years of flying mostly a Cherokee) was the tendency to overcontrol everything. The RV flies with thumb and finger on the stick and movements so slight you just think about moving the stick and the airplane responds *instantly*. I also found myself chasing the airspeed indicator a lot, when trying to slow down for landing. After a few hours of RV flying under my belt, it all became much more natural feeling, but was a bit like learning to fly an airplane all over again.

 

[Velocity173]

Is the small size what make the value of a 1ft so low? Or is there an Issue with these planes that I'm not aware of?

One of the things that appeals to me about vans is the larger pool of A&Ps who know the RVs well.

I suppose that's part of it. The II made various improvements on the I. Just like the 7 improved upon the 6. Most of this was QC stuff making a better easier to build aircraft.

You could compare the I with a RV-4 or even a Longeze. Not much room but quick little machines. I just went flying yesterday and another pilot there flying a C-172 commented on how fast I was going on takeoff. Solo, light on fuel=110 kts and 1,900 FPM. Speed comes at a price though. For most homebuilts that means lack of room to cut down on wetted area. If I had a family I sure wouldn't be flying a Glasair I.

Speed also comes at a price with stall speed. Mine stalls at 55 kts. Some people have a problem with that. I don't. You'll see the canard guys brag about not being able to stall the main wing. That's great but in order to do that the canard stalls at a fairly high speed (55-60kts). So while you won't spin your canard in during a SE failure, you'll be landing a bit fast. You could say their high L/D ratios make up for that though. You could very well glide a canard to an airport that a Glasair or an RV can't reach.


I'm not here to tell you the Glasair is the best thing in aviation. I've flown in a 4 and a 7. Great aircraft, I just prefer composite looks. I've been to OSH a couple of times and RVs are everywhere. Glasairs I suppose are a bit unique. One thing I'd love to do is put a warbird paint job on mine like I see on the RVs. Unfortunately I have a limited choice in colors with fiberglass.

Oh yeah, just to be clear I was joking about the "zoom" climb stuff. RVs, Glasairs, it's all good. As we say, once you go experimental you'll never go back.

 

[poadeleted20]

Point is capability...and I did it a fair amount in the RV-4 years back. There's an old video of Van landing his RV-4 in about 400 ft. Do you consider 1200' short? Big yawn in an RV.

For nearly all light singles, takeoff is the issue, not landing. With any significant load, pretty near all light singles can land at airports from which they can leave only on a flatbed truck.

 

[Geico266]

Stall speed is overrated. I eat RVs for breakfast. Anytime those yahoos come into my home field for a weak overhead, I scramble and do a "zoom" climb to intercept in less than 45 secs! By the time I reach the end of the runway, I'm at 10 ft and already doing 150 kts. No comparison in speed. Not to mention a Glasair looks fast just sitting there.

Well then.