GA Safety

Two comments I've heard so far:


"Education and practice are the two keys. Uneducated, out of practice pilots have to be the most dangerous in the sky. "

"Outside delivery though, his point still remains very much valid and that is that recency and recurrent training, plus a regimented flow, are indeed the cornerstones of more predictable outcomes, in this case the notion of SAFETY not related to endemic systems reliability or lack thereof. The problem for the hobby pilot is getting the money and discipline to incorporate that level of "drudgery" into his flying budget in order to closely mimic that outcome. "

I wholeheartedly agree. I personally believe today, there are the the #1 thing we can do to improve safety.

Education: 2% of pilots had a passed a phase of FAA Wings. Of those, roughly 1% of accidents were by wings members. The research data is poor, but the idea is solid.

Practice: By and far, loss of control, CFIT, and basic airmanship are the leading cause of fatals today. Practice make perfect. Not boring holes in the sky, but maneuver/pattern work.

A simple solution would be to eliminate the third class medical and require instead 1-2 hours a year of instruction. The cost would be about the same I suspect the benefits of better trained pilots would FAR outweigh the few pilots that would have an incapacitating event.
 
Odin needs pilots. Odin needs good pilots, not just crap pilots. Makes better sense then most peoples reasoning.
 
Just imagine, if there were about 40,000 general aviation deaths a year in the U.S., do you think there would be any general aviation at all? I'll never understand why more attention isn't paid to reducing the annual carnage on our roads.
 
Very true! I would agree with this, and certainly support it in any way you can. If only getting something like this pushed through was easy. Dollars can "buy" lives, and just like in highway construction, spending that money most efficiently is important.

You do hit on a good point It might seem stupid, but a student pilot on a solo/XC-solo is nearly twice as safe as a private pilot.


A simple solution would be to eliminate the third class medical and require instead 1-2 hours a year of instruction. The cost would be about the same I suspect the benefits of better trained pilots would FAR outweigh the few pilots that would have an incapacitating event.
 
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Just imagine, if there were about 40,000 general aviation deaths a year in the U.S., do you think there would be any general aviation at all? I'll never understand why more attention isn't paid to reducing the annual carnage on our roads.

If there were as many planes as cars it would be an improvement
 
Just imagine, if there were about 40,000 general aviation deaths a year in the U.S., do you think there would be any general aviation at all? I'll never understand why more attention isn't paid to reducing the annual carnage on our roads.

Because there are 200,000,000 drivers.

There are what, 600,000 active pilots with a medical? And probably only 60% of those even touch GA equipment with any regularity (many airline pilots haven't seen a Cessna in decades)? So let's say 400,000 GA pilots.

Yet, we have 450 GA deaths per year.

That's 1 per 800 pilots! (400,000/450)

Compare that to (200,000,000/40,000).

That's 1 per 5,000 drivers!

And most people drive MANY more hours per year than they fly...
 
Part of my decision making is to stop and consider what the NTSB report would say if I crashed.

If it would say "pilots failure to..." and you folks would call me an idiot while reading it I skip that option.

So in the end I fly VMC, with sufficient fuel, avoid low altitude buzzing and stay within the airplanes envelope. If I stick to those rules (minus the VMC once rated and proficient) I expect to die of old age long before a plane kills me

My odds of dying of old age are getting better.:rofl:
 
I have been flying for a little bit over a year, so I am a fairly new pilot with a ton to learn.
I think we should adopt the standardized procedures, the recurrent training, and to some extent fly more as the pro pilots do. Overall I just think we can do better. We all know that you are 10 times more likely to die in a GA airplane than driving a car. While you have more control as a pilot as a GA population we are not very good at it---according to the numbers.
 
Hindsight, I did not mean to pick on you. Cocolos asked what he could do to remove himself from the statistic. The OP asked if GA tried to emulate part 121 would that help. My opinion is no, since there is no correlation. They are different worlds. The equipment is what it is. The OP has little control over that. IMO the training is not available. The OP says he is a new PP. By definition he has been taught very little. One might argue that the training needs to be expanded. This however equates into more money. That would inhibit even more the growth of GA.

It appears you have found the magic bullet to remove yourself from the demographic. If you have, I commend you and sincerely suggest you give specific syllabus ideas to those people that can incorporate it into the PP training and subsequent recurrent training.

This is an ongoing theme that is not likely to be resolved on this forum. Like most dangerous activities there are things you can do to mitigate some of the danger. Some of those have been suggested. I think it is unfair to the OP to suggest there is a magic bullet to remove himself from the demographic unless you can give specific training syllabuses to accomplish this.

OP is obviously aware of and accepts the danger. He knows flying at his level is many times more dangerous than driving. Is there anything he can do to change this? IMO not a lot. But it is good that he is looking at it and not trying to kid himself that he is not in the demographic while operating a small piston engine plane.

Hindsight, you have your opinion and I have mine. Does not make me right and you wrong. Just a difference of opinion.
 
We've been over this before. For safety to go up, freedom must go down. You want the same safety for GA that student pilots have? Simple, make all pilots get a sign off on from a higher power before every flight. Create some uber GA dispatcher squad that reviews every flight and has the power to say no and safety will go way up.
I have been flying for a little bit over a year, so I am a fairly new pilot with a ton to learn.
I think we should adopt the standardized procedures, the recurrent training, and to some extent fly more as the pro pilots do. Overall I just think we can do better. We all know that you are 10 times more likely to die in a GA airplane than driving a car. While you have more control as a pilot as a GA population we are not very good at it---according to the numbers.
 
I have been flying for a little bit over a year, so I am a fairly new pilot with a ton to learn.
I think we should adopt the standardized procedures, the recurrent training, and to some extent fly more as the pro pilots do. Overall I just think we can do better. We all know that you are 10 times more likely to die in a GA airplane than driving a car. While you have more control as a pilot as a GA population we are not very good at it---according to the numbers.

Keep training, expect emergencies and train for them. Don't make emergencies yourself, Murphy will so that for you, trust me.

I am alive today because I was well trained and just kept flying the plane. The few minutes in that busted plane are probably some of the most valuable in my log book.

I know that it takes a lot to make a plane not fly
I know I can fly a plane and make adjustments to compensate for loss of performance
I know I can remain calm while all that happens

And most importantly I know how much it sucks and aim not to have to go through that again!
 
Greg, I doubt even that would help much other than lowering the number of flights. The OP is asking is there a way to make GA as safe or at least significantly safer as is part 121. Again, IMO no.
Is there a way to make GA safer from inside the cockpit? Not much, IMO.
 
Greg, I doubt even that would help much other than lowering the number of flights. The OP is asking is there a way to make GA as safe or at least significantly safer as is part 121. Again, IMO no.
Is there a way to make GA safer from inside the cockpit? Not much, IMO.

Is it safe to assume that you think it's more of a problem of GA not having the equipment as the 121 operators do? But how does that explain that 70% of accidents are pilot error?
 
I see the top 10 list, is there a list that includes %'s for each cause? Or a place to find that info?
 
Is it safe to assume that you think it's more of a problem of GA not having the equipment as the 121 operators do? But how does that explain that 70% of accidents are pilot error?

Is the weekend duffer ever going to be as good as the lowest guy on the PGA tour? Probably not. Is it the equipment?
 
Is the weekend duffer ever going to be as good as the lowest guy on the PGA tour? Probably not. Is it the equipment?

I think you missed the point that the response was in response to not being able to fix the problem inside the cockpit.
 
I think you missed the point that the response was in response to not being able to fix the problem inside the cockpit.

Inside or outside we will never be as good as those who fly for a living and each of us has to balance proficiency, equipment, and risk factor.
 
I think you missed the point that the response was in response to not being able to fix the problem inside the cockpit.

Yep, nobody makes money when I fly, therefore no one pays me to train, therefore...
 
Maybe I'm missing it, I'm new, just started training... seems like CFI time is fairly cheap compared to the rest of flying. (but don't tell my instructor that!) Does it not "help" to spend time with them after you get your PPL?
 
There are well documented accidents that prove the airlines aren't the holly grail to aviation safety either...

Even the most well trained pilots have killed lots of people because of one simple factor that can affect anyone, being human. Airlines have that two person system and CRM, GA won't have and can't afford it.

Do you see many airliner dead sticking due to engine failures? SEP is by far going to lead the pack in deaths due to the simple fact there is no backup thrust, therefore increase the chances of forced landings. when an airliner experiences forced landings it often doesn't end well either.
 
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Really? I don't see GA airplanes failing out of the sky. I think GA is a pretty safe way to travel especially if you follow some of the simple rules that others have stated in this thread. Most of the safety issue is controllable by the pilot unlike driving on the road in a car which is much more susceptible to the actions of others.
That's absolutely right. And that the GA accident rate is on par with the motorcycle accident rate (where most accidents are the other guy's fault) tells you what a bad job we're doing overall controlling our accident rate by following those simple rules.
 
No Cocolos I don't. Equipment does matter. I will assume you accept that well maintained turbine aircraft are more dependable than small SE. Also the redundant equipment makes problems from equipment failures less of a concern. However, this equipment makes them safer primarily in situations of reduced visibility and over hostile terrain. Thunderstorms and ice that get a few small planes every year are better tolerated by the better equipment.

It is the training factor that I think is primary. Skylane refers to the cost. That would be a factor if training were available. Where does a Cherokee pilot get the kind of training that the 121 or corporate pilot gets. Sims don't exist (yes I am a big fan of sim training).

Also the bar is very low for the private pilot. Just how much do you think you are going to learn in 20 - 30 hours of instruction? The corporate pilot is going to spend at least that much time in intense training with a mix of class room and sim training every year, many spend twice that much. Also many of these pilots will have at least 3000 hours.

I think Bill Jennings summed it up in a previous post. You can not expect a 500 hour pilot to have the experience level to draw on. There is only so much that can be taught and practiced, some has to be experienced.

Cocols, I think you have a very good attitude toward your flying. Always look for ways to increase your knowledge. Insist that recurrent training focus on things you might actually experience. Doing an hour of T&G every week is not going to expand your knowledge much. In addition to my previous suggestions you may can find a mentor. A sage pilot that has been there and done that. An old freight dog is a valuable source.
 
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....For example, a belt can break causing loss of all electrical. .....

.... SE piston is what keeps me out of SE airplanes....

...Then there is training. I see on this board a call to practice stalls and spinning. Really? Those of you flying turbine aircraft, and especially ATP flying 121 when is the last time ...


Oh christ!

First off the melodrama, if you loose a alternator belt (which is rare) you don't loose all electrical lol. You're a ATP, you should know systems better then that ;)

Nothing wrong with single piston ops, it just different, safer in some ways, less in others. I can take a engine out J3 or 185 and damn near land anywhere without much risk. Try that in a B1900, now that 1900 is FAR less likely too loose both turbines, but if it does it's going to FAR worse then the lil J3. It's just a give and take.

On stalls and spins, DAMN STRAIGHT I practice them!! If you're flying a plane that you can safely and sanly do them, then do them.

The point I was making in my first thread is EXPERIENCE is what makes the difference. Also staying away from automation and rote knowledge is something that will make you safer (also something the 121 guys need to work on a little ;) )
 
You can laugh out loud if you wish but, you will only have residual from the battery. It will be serious if you are flying in low IFR for miles in every direction. Equipment failure is much more serious in a plane without redundant systems. Of course in day VFR it is not as serious. We were talking about things that kill pilots and weather related accidents are not rare. How many are caused by system failure, I don't know.
A loose belt might not be as bad but, I specified the loss of the belt. No alternator at all.

As far as spins, it is fine with me for anybody to do them The OP was asking about things that might make him safer. Knowing how to avoid spins for me would be much more important.

You can pick specific situations all day long. The statistics don't back up your assertions. Of course I would rather be in a cub trying to land in a parking lot as opposed to a B200. It just that the odds are greater that you will need the parking lot in the cub.

May I remind you the OP specifically asked about the comparison to 121 operations. So I thought it appropriate to show some of the difference in the operations. I stated in a later post that I did not believe equipment is the most important but, rather the lack of available training.

Lastly you do not know what ratings I have. Also if you wish to talk system knowledge please start a new thread and I will be happy to accommodate you. Now back to the OP.
 
I have spent a good part of my career trying to figure out how to improve transportation safety. My actual employment has been in surface modes, but there are a lot of common themes. The most disciplined environments prove safest. Only you can answer how safe you are at heart. The FAA's ideas such as I'M SAFE can be a start. I had come up with my own similar approach-three trikes and it's off. If three things get significant adverse attention from me, I call off the flight. These change based on how good I feel about my skills.

I have noticed that accidents that do not involve deliberate disregard for basic principles, like VFR into IMC, stretching your fuel, overloading the aircraft, or buzzing, usually involve a causal chain that causes the person in control (pilot, engineer, driver, conductor, etc.) to overlook events that become part of the causal chain. I can overlook one thing or even two, but once three things are getting my attention, I am much more likely to miss the building circumstances. Examples of the kinds of distractions I am talking about could involve a really hot day that causes me to be really uncomfortable preflighting the aircraft, a traffic jam on the way to the airport, especially if it is unexpected and I have some kind of deadline, an argument with my kids, bad health news from my parents, an excessive mag drop that only goes away after I run the engine very lean to clear off the plugs, bumping my head on the flaps or ailerons, or any of a host of things. I know what is on my mind.

So, if I avoid violation behavior, and avoid things that might distract me, the next question is how best to prepare. I have decided to get X-Plane and use it to practice my navigation and related skills. I can even use it to simulate some emergencies that would not be a good idea to practice in a real airplane. It's not a perfect answer, but I believe I can use it economically to enhance my skills.

I also think a program of instruction is a good idea. My flying club has plenty of requirements, but simply trying to enhance one's skills is a good idea. I think that there are three groups of skills: Decisionmaking, technical, and kinesthetic (stick and rudder). I discussed decisionmaking above, and at the moment the FAA is going all out on the topic. I think the simulator has the potential to help my technical skills. None of those skills keeps you out of trouble if you can't fly the plane.

There has been a lot of discussion of stick and rudder skills, but the question is how do you develop them. I think that some training in aircraft that are relatively demanding of such skills, like cubs or taylorcraft, area great idea. I also think you should practice spins, and other similar maneuvers, but some maneuvers really let you know how good your skills are, such as falling leaf, lazy 8, and chandelle. Another great indicator is the precision of your landings. How well do you stabilize the approach, do you touch down where you wanted to, how well did you control your speed, were you in the very center of the runway, were you drifting laterally at all, and how much runway did you use? If you are unhappy with your performance on any of these counts, try to figure out why, and do something about it.

Go read lots of accident reports and see where your skill set would not have kept you out of the trouble the accident pilot got into. Set up your personal accident prevention plan and seek out the training or other improvements that will keep you out of the accidents.

Finally, be aware of what economists call "time inconsistency of preferences." Learn to set your parameters ahead of time and live within them. I think a very common mistake in using GA for transportation is mistaking en route speed for some kind of measure of logistical effectiveness. If you need to be a some place by a certain time with 95% confidence, in GA you have to allow a lot more time to account for things like weather and maintenance delays. For example if I had a business meeting in Atlanta at 9 AM a week from today, and I live in the DC area, I might have to leave earlier by GA aircraft than I would by car to ensure a 95 percent chance of being there on time.

I don't think it is physically possible for an average GA pilot to come close to the kind of safety record the airlines have. I do think it is feasible to reduce risk to no more than 20 percent of the GA average per hour.

Many transportation carriers have accident rates well below industry averages. My observation is they get that way by consistent emphasis on safety. Motor carriers have wider disparities among them than do rail carriers, but in both industries it is the constant emphasis on safety that bear fruit. If you are willing to live with your own discipline, then you too can be much safer.
 
You can laugh out loud if you wish but, you will only have residual from the battery. It will be serious if you are flying in low IFR for miles in every direction. Equipment failure is much more serious in a plane without redundant systems. Of course in day VFR it is not as serious. We were talking about things that kill pilots and weather related accidents are not rare. How many are caused by system failure, I don't know.
A loose belt might not be as bad but, I specified the loss of the belt. No alternator at all.
If you have a voltage monitor that generates a hard to miss warning the instant the charging system dies and a battery operated portable GPS, you could shut everything down until you needed the avionics for an approach. Not quite as good as having a redundant power source but almost. Of course this only works if your ship's battery is in decent shape. If it's lost more than half it's capacity you might not get more than one shot at the approach.
 
Gizmo, count the number of if's in your post. You make my point exactly. Read the last couple of lines in post #36. "Nine Three" seems to think that system failure is no big deal. In some cases he is correct, in others he is wrong. My point to the OP is that system redundancy (equipment) is important but lack of training is more important IMO.

However, I think pertinent training is even more important still. I guess I am just not well informed but, I fail to see how being good at spinning an aircraft is going to be much use to you if on base to final at 300 feet AGL you stall the plane and enter a spin. I think you need to be able to detect the impending stall and fix it. Again, JMO.

Please remember the OP was asking his questions from the prospective of a new low time PP. He asked if he emulated the 121 guys in training would it remove him from the demographics that he was talking about. Specifically that "GA safety is crap" . I stated reasons why I thought it would not. Many seem to agree. The thread morphed into what might be done to improve GA safety to near 121. I have not read anything that would. Others think it is safe enough or it is just safe. Just a difference of opinions on an internet forum. I do not think the personal attacks are helpful. My ratings or my understanding of systems are not relevant.(not you gizmo)
 
Please remember the OP was asking his questions from the prospective of a new low time PP. He asked if he emulated the 121 guys in training would it remove him from the demographics that he was talking about. Specifically that "GA safety is crap" . I stated reasons why I thought it would not. Many seem to agree. The thread morphed into what might be done to improve GA safety to near 121. I have not read anything that would. Others think it is safe enough or it is just safe. Just a difference of opinions on an internet forum. I do not think the personal attacks are helpful. My ratings or my understanding of systems are not relevant.(not you gizmo)
How safe is safe enough? That is a terrific question. If you have to spend so much money to improve safety that you can barely afford to fly, or spend so much effort that flying is no longer fun, then you might as well not fly. You need to balance the risk against what you enjoy. I did not say above that part 91 flying could be made as safe as part 121 flying, nor that it is safe, kind of a difficult proposition to evaluate in a vacuum, or safe enough. I think a lot of accidents come from a few things that many have control over. One of the early posters said it best:
Don't run out of gas. Don't fly into weather. Don't pull the wings off. If the engine fails, fly it down to the ground.

Those are my rules.
Would flying be safe enough for you if you avoided those four issues? Only you can answer for yourself.
 
Just imagine, if there were about 40,000 general aviation deaths a year in the U.S., do you think there would be any general aviation at all? I'll never understand why more attention isn't paid to reducing the annual carnage on our roads.

Traffic deaths peaked in 1972 at 54,589. In 2011 there were 32,367 traffic deaths. It has been a pretty nice downward trend over the past decade. Airbags, increased seatbelt use, crumple zones etc. are having an impact. People are paying and have paid a lot of attention to the issue.

We could easily eliminate 30,000 or so of the remaining deaths. Just require 10 mph speed limiters on every vehicle. However, the social and economic cost would be high. This refutes the old "You can't put a price on a life" argument. We do it every day.

Aviation is similar. We could require only twin engine planes, dual flight crews and a national flight department to approve your flight plan and give you permission to fly. I would be safer because I would just give up flying. I hope it never comes to that.
 
Motorcycle accident rate (where most accidents are the other guy's fault) tells you what a bad job we're doing overall controlling our accident rate by following those simple rules.

I'd like to see what percentage of motorcycle accidents are caused by riders who are doing something dangerous or stupid at the time of their accident. I bet the percentage of accidents caused by rider error is similar to GA. Just a guess but I think about one of every ten motorcycle riders I see on the street is riding like an idiot.
 
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I'd like to see what percentage of motorcycle accidents are caused by riders who are doing something dangerous or stupid at the time of their accident. I bet the percentage of accidents caused by rider error is similar to GA. Just a guess but I think about one of every ten motorcycle riders I see on the street is riding like an idiot.

So would you say that one out of every ten pilots are flying like morons?
 
So would you say that one out of every ten pilots are flying like morons?

That's not really what I meant. But probably better than 1/10 pilots are guilty of one of these... Not flying well maintained equipment, not staying current and/or doing only the bare minimum of recurrent training. Oh and there are morons too.

In the last two months I have heard of .. someone stealing a plane and crashing on meth... another guy crashed an airplane that had been out of annual since 1998..
 
Frank, Paul, exactly, could not agree more. Each person must decide what level of risk he will tolerate for a given activity. Also, over time that level may change.
However, that does not change the need to always look for ways to mitigate the danger but, only to a degree that is socially acceptable.
Again, agree with Paul and Frank.
 
That is what we all want to believe so we can exclude ourselves from the numbers. GA death numbers don't apply to me, I gave up meth weeks ago.:wink2: We all are conveniently ignoring the vast majority of statistically identical to ourselves pilots that go in.
QUOTE=dell30rb;1222808]That's not really what I meant. But probably better than 1/10 pilots are guilty of one of these... Not flying well maintained equipment, not staying current and/or doing only the bare minimum of recurrent training. Oh and there are morons too.

In the last two months I have heard of .. someone stealing a plane and crashing on meth... another guy crashed an airplane that had been out of annual since 1998..[/QUOTE]
 
That's not really what I meant. But probably better than 1/10 pilots are guilty of one of these... Not flying well maintained equipment, not staying current and/or doing only the bare minimum of recurrent training. Oh and there are morons too.

In the last two months I have heard of .. someone stealing a plane and crashing on meth... another guy crashed an airplane that had been out of annual since 1998..

So what does that say about the type that are attracted to aviation? Risk takers? Adrenaline junkies? For some I think the danger is what draws them to it and what they feel separates them from the "normal" person so to speak.
 
That is what we all want to believe so we can exclude ourselves from the numbers. GA death numbers don't apply to me, I gave up meth weeks ago.:wink2: We all are conveniently ignoring the vast majority of statistically identical to ourselves pilots that go in.

I don't think the statistics tell us much. Any CFI will tell you they occasionally run into high time pilots who are an accident waiting to happen. The pilot who flew the plane out of annual since 1998 was a 3500 hour commercial pilot. To paraphrase Richard Collins, the next hour in your logbook is the only one that counts.
 
SOME want to believe that. Many recognize the dangers of small aircraft in the hands of low time PP. Others claim they can do things to exclude themselves from the demographic in question.
I still maintain one needs to separate GA into the different categories. I do not think you get an accurate picture of the statistics when the Lear 60 with the professional crew is lumped in with the 300 hour PP in his Cherokee. Each category's demographic has to decide what is acceptable.

Climbsink, your point is well taken and IMO on point.

Rem, you can always find an exceptions. Corporate jets do hit the ground from time to time. All airplanes break and all pilots mess up. It is the relative risk that the OP was referring to. The statistics do not say that turbine aircraft are 100% safe, only that they are less dangerous than other segments of GA. The why is debatable. So yes the statistics tell us a lot.
 
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So what does that say about the type that are attracted to aviation? Risk takers? Adrenaline junkies? For some I think the danger is what draws them to it and what they feel separates them from the "normal" person so to speak.


There are risk takers and adrenaline junkies who are pilots, but they don't last long.
 
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