Verdict Against Barron Thomas

weilke said:
Based on the operating agreemenrt, the majority members will hold a vote and give you your $33.32 back.
If I redeem a $22 GE stock certificate, I get $22. I can't demand to take the nuclear reactor division instead. Owning a stock certificate or membership interest does not establish ownership or title to any of the entities assets. It gives you whatever the bylaws or operating agreement give you upon redeeming your share. Bylaws and operating agreements can be amended by majority vote.
Ever tried to borrow money against a LLC interest (without entering a mortgage or security interest against the underlying house/airplane ) ?
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In such a situation, the LLC would need to pay either fair market value, or permit the new owner of the share to sell it to someone else for the same. Some right of redemption at a nominal value would be shot down rather rapidly by the courts.
 
I've attended most of the NBAA tax and risk conferences since the mid-nineties, all of which have included several sessions or breakouts on insurance vs structure strategy. The unanimous opinions of the aviation attorneys who present/moderate is that reliance on deal structure and extraneous entities is foolish and that insurance is your friend.
 
JeffDG said:
Now, if the plaintiff were dumb enough to only sue the LLC, you'd lose the plane and the insurance proceeds, but that would be it. But they'll also sue you as the pilot and voila, say goodbye to your house if you don't have adequate personal liability insurance!

Contrast that with: You own a plane in an LLC, and your buddy at the airport borrows it and crashes it into a bus full of investment bankers. You still lose the plane and insurance proceeds (assets of the LLC), but your house is untouched, because you, as a person, are not at fault. If you owned the plane yourself, you'd be hosed.
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Actually - you'd be hosed because I'd claim you did not verify your buddy was capable for operating the aircraft safely if you just gave him the keys without any other effort at verifying not only legality but proficiency.
 
comanchepilot said:
Actually - you'd be hosed because I'd claim you did not verify your buddy was capable for operating the aircraft safely if you just gave him the keys without any other effort at verifying not only legality but proficiency.
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And he wouldn't even have to win the suit for you to be hosed. Just defending against it could wipe out your bank account.

Wayne is right when he says insurance is your friend. It's just as much the duty to defend that you're buying in a policy as the payment for damages.
 
This is going sideways a bit. My commentary on corp liability had to do strictly with commercial actions(sales, purchase, holding, leasing, services) and not actionable liability such as operations.

Since this was a discussion about the liability related to the commercial activities, I thought my advice was cogent. Others have taken a more wide open view of it. without going all business school rules, the basic advise is keep corp assets and financials completely separate and at arms length from any personal assets and financials. There should be the proverbial 'Chinese wall' in legal terms between the two entities. BT violated this most egregiously and all the trusts and shells in the world didn't make a bit of difference. The fact he was a criminal defendant sure didn't help either.
 
weilke said:
Based on the operating agreemenrt, the majority members will hold a vote and give you your $33.32 back.
If I redeem a $22 GE stock certificate, I get $22. I can't demand to take the nuclear reactor division instead. Owning a stock certificate or membership interest does not establish ownership or title to any of the entities assets. It gives you whatever the bylaws or operating agreement give you upon redeeming your share. Bylaws and operating agreements can be amended by majority vote.
Ever tried to borrow money against a LLC interest (without entering a mortgage or security interest against the underlying house/airplane ) ?
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Sure, but are most LLCs set up to allow one member to be singled out by the others like that? I wouldn't expect the new "member" to be able to liquidate the LLCs assets but if there was some equity in the share, he ought to be able to sell it to someone for a portion of it's value. Let's say you and I along with two other pilots had formed a LLC and purchased an airplane then later you had creditors coming after you from some liability judgement unrelated to the airplane. The creditor might be able to recover some cash selling your share to another pilot and even if they couldn't find a buyer I think they could deprive you of the share. All I'm trying to say is that just because you put assets into a LLC (whether owned by just you or in a partnership) doesn't keep said assets out of a creditor's reach.
 
gismo said:
Sure, but are most LLCs set up to allow one member to be singled out by the others like that? I wouldn't expect the new "member" to be able to liquidate the LLCs assets but if there was some equity in the share, he ought to be able to sell it to someone for a portion of it's value. Let's say you and I along with two other pilots had formed a LLC and purchased an airplane then later you had creditors coming after you from some liability judgement unrelated to the airplane. The creditor might be able to recover some cash selling your share to another pilot and even if they couldn't find a buyer I think they could deprive you of the share. All I'm trying to say is that just because you put assets into a LLC (whether owned by just you or in a partnership) doesn't keep said assets out of a creditor's reach.
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It's all in how you set the corp up. The corp that owns our partnership plane has a clear bylaws on how individual stockholders are paid out and it is set up in a way that doesn't allow the majority to alter those provisions. A family llc, family trust or family corporation designed with asset protection in mind would be set up in a way that doesn't allow a minority shareholder (e.g. an assailant who has obtained a charging order against one member of the family) to force the liquidation of assets.
 
From the red board.

All I can say is...awwwwwwwwwwwwww.
Jeff King said:
Release date is 11/20/2015 or sooner with good behavior. I gotta give it to him, he was advertising airplanes (and even new listings) right up until his incarceration date.


http://www.azcorrections.gov/inmate...&LastName=THOMAS&FNMI=B&SearchType=SearchInet

Barron-Thomas-mugshot-27123840.400x800.jpg
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But, hey, at least he found god like all good criminals do. I'm confident that we'll see him on the pulpit after his release.

http://www.barronthomas.org/barron-thomas-one-gods-greatest-gifts-forgiveness/
 
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weilke said:
....which are being shuffled around in a never ending shell-game using entities and trusts.

I wonder what he has a PLLC for ? Is he a licensed social worker or something ?
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Every shuffle or movement of assets is a taxable event. If those taxes haven't been paid the IRS would like to know about it. ;)
 
I note with great interest that our friend Mr. Thomas is working as a warehouse clerk, at the rate of $.35 per hour. Good honest work builds character!
 
I can forget the $500 he still owes me, now that I know there are odds that he's being cornholed in an orange jumper.
 
The funny is he has been active on Google Plus as of the last few weeks.

I hope he has time to open the business venture offer from the Zoomer.
 
mikea said:
The funny is he has been active on Google Plus as of the last few weeks.

I hope he has time to open the business venture offer from the Zoomer.
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That would be SO cool! :yes:
 
schmookeeg said:
I can forget the $500 he still owes me, now that I know there are odds that he's being cornholed in an orange jumper.
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At 35 cents an an hour divided by your place in line.....carry the 1. Yeah I think forgetting it is a good idea.
 
I know a couple folks that have attended Club Fed. Have never heard one of them admit it was their fault. One told me they couldn't get the big fish, so they settled on him. Other stories are similar. The latest I talked to gave me the everybody else was doing it line. He just got caught. I did mention I wasn't doing it, and got the oh, you know: ALMOST, everyone else. And, anyone BIG was doing it.

Best,

Dave
 
Rules of having assets:

1) You want lots of insurance because you want to keep the insurance company interested

2) Keep most of your assets, if possible, in retirement plans.

3) Don't screw up.
 
My personal rule in dealing with business/personal liabilities and the insurance to cover them: I buy lotsa insurance to buy their lawyers because they can afford better ones than I can. Yes, it keeps them interested and involved until the bitter end...then you're cancelled.
 
timwinters said:
True dat!

But criminals typically don't find God...they find god.
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IIRC, he played the religious angle in his ads, usually a good sign to RUN away.;) When someone, especially in business, that tells me how religious they are, I grab my wallet.:eek:
 
N747JB said:
IIRC, he played the religious angle in his ads, usually a good sign to RUN away.;) When someone, especially in business, that tells me how religious they are, I grab my wallet.:eek:
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Concur.

I was screwed only twice while in business.

Once by a guy whose business card included the slogan "god is my partner". I guess he didn't screw his partner but he screwed everyone else.

The other had an Ichthus on his card.

Both were early in my days of being a general contractor and I quickly decided to steer clear of anyone who mixed business and religion.

I have a few E.I. gauges/monitors in my plane...and I cringe every time I visit their website. The Ichthus is front and center (at least it used to be, haven't visited lately). They, however, are a great company. There are always exceptions.
 
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timwinters said:
Both were early in my days of being a general contractor and I quickly decided to steer clear of anyone who mixed business and religion.
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So you prefer to only do business with atheists and agnostics, who have no unchanging moral law by which to live?

The reality is that a truly religious person, especially a Christian, can't divorce his religion from business, politics, or anything else in which he is involved. The problem is that there are many who identify themselves as religious, and significantly fewer who actually practice what they preach.

The Bible says that, "You will know them by their fruits," not their slick marketing material. That tends to be especially evident in business.


JKG
 
JGoodish said:
So you prefer to only do business with atheists and agnostics, who have no unchanging moral law by which to live?
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Not at all, rather quite the opposite. Those people are using a false religious front as a smoke screen to lull folks into a false conclusion...that they are honest.

But...

...most atheists and agnostics I know are far more moral than the average "Christian" I know. At least the atheists and agnostics don't spend most of their time pretending to be someone who they aren't.

I think you and I are saying the same thing here.
 
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The biggest load of BS I heard when buying a plane was from a pastor in Alabama. I would have hung up in the first 15 seconds, except it was more fun to let him build a mountain of lies then call him on it.
 
I know your where directing that at Tim, but as a businessman with a very diverse customer base, black, white, hispanic, gay, straight, republican, democrat and everything in between. I make it a point to stay away from religion, politics and race relations at work. Period, end of story. I don't avoid people of any religion in doing business, I am just a little more suspicious of folks that want to tell me what a "good Christian" they are. I personally don't care how or if someone worships, as long as they do what they say. ;) I even hired an architect that is a LIBERAL!!!:eek::eek: But, he's good at his job and his price was fair. :D

JGoodish said:
So you prefer to only do business with atheists and agnostics, who have no unchanging moral law by which to live?

The reality is that a truly religious person, especially a Christian, can't divorce his religion from business, politics, or anything else in which he is involved. The problem is that there are many who identify themselves as religious, and significantly fewer who actually practice what they preach.

The Bible says that, "You will know them by their fruits," not their slick marketing material. That tends to be especially evident in business.


JKG
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timwinters said:
Not at all, rather quite the opposite. Those people are using a false religious front as a smoke screen to lull folks into a false conclusion...that they are honest.

But...

...most atheists and agnostics I know are far more moral than the average "Christian" I know. At least the atheists and agnostics don't spend most of their time pretending to be someone who they aren't.

I think you and I are saying the same thing here.
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I think we are. Honest Christians aren't going to advertise that fact for their own advantage, or the advantage of their business ventures. The last time I checked, God was not making himself available to endorse anyone's character or business venture.

Now, I don't think that the presence of an Ichthus or cross on someone's web site or place of business is generally an attempt to use religion to promote the business. With that being said, when I see those things, I expect that person or buisiness to reflect those religious values--and I tend to specifically look for it. That expectation does not include being perfect, but does include excellence in both performance and ethical behavior.


JKG
 
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N747JB said:
I know your where directing that at Tim, but as a businessman with a very diverse customer base, black, white, hispanic, gay, straight, republican, democrat and everything in between. I make it a point to stay away from religion, politics and race relations at work. Period, end of story. I don't avoid people of any religion in doing business, I am just a little more suspicious of folks that want to tell me what a "good Christian" they are. I personally don't care how or if someone worships, as long as they do what they say. ;) I even hired an architect that is a LIBERAL!!!:eek::eek: But, he's good at his job and his price was fair. :D
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Personally, I find very little virtue in someone who attempts to hide who they are or what they believe, regardless of whether I agree with them or not. As a business owner, it is unlikely that I would turn away anyone unless accommodating them would somehow infringe on my own religious convictions, but those situations would likely be few and far between. It is far more likely that those who disagree with my convictions would choose not to do business with me, which is a realization that I suspect motivates many business owners to "cleanse" their businesses of such personal convictions. It's hard to find much virtue in hiding personal convictions in return for cold, hard cash.

The flip side is that using a business venture to overtly promote an unaffiliated personal conviction is an example of ineptitude, in my opinion.

Chick-fil-a is a company that, I think, does an admirable job of reflecting religious values in their business practices while acknowledging that they're in business to sell chicken sandwiches to everyone. While some who disagree with their convictions or values have targeted them for holding those convictions, I am not aware of any merit-based criticism of their business practices. There aren't crosses or Bible verses on the walls of their restaurants, but they promote Christian values by demonstrating them. They aren't endorsing the views of a non-Christian who chooses to eat there, and neither is a non-Christian endorsing Chick-fil-a's values by eating there.


JKG
 
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JGoodish said:
Personally, I find very little virtue in someone who attempts to hide who they are or what they believe, regardless of whether I agree with them or not. As a business owner, it is unlikely that I would turn away anyone unless accommodating them would somehow infringe on my own religious convictions, but those situations would likely be few and far between. It is far more likely that those who disagree with my convictions would choose not to do business with me, which is a realization that I suspect motivates many business owners to "cleanse" their businesses of such personal convictions. It's hard to find much virtue in hiding personal convictions in return for cold, hard cash.

The flip side is that using a business venture to overtly promote an unaffiliated personal conviction is an example of ineptitude, in my opinion.

Chick-fil-a is a company that, I think, does an admirable job of reflecting religious values in their business practices while acknowledging that they're in business to sell chicken sandwiches to everyone. While some who disagree with their convictions or values have targeted them for holding those convictions, I am not aware of any merit-based criticism of their business practices. There aren't crosses or Bible verses on the walls of their restaurants, but they promote Christian values by demonstrating them. They aren't endorsing the views of a non-Christian who chooses to eat there, and neither is a non-Christian endorsing Chick-fil-a's values by eating there.


JKG
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I don't hide who or what I am from anyone, I just think it's not a good idea to use religion, politics, race, or sexuality in business. I have discussions with customers about various topics, and many I don't agree with them on, but I don't feel like my personal views on a subject will help my business. I figure my customer base is pretty close to 50/50 white/black, 50/50 republican/democrat. Does it make any sense for me to put a big sign out front endorsing a candidate? NO, it won't influence those that agree with me, but it will influence those that disagree. It's usually a no win for a business that deals with the public, your example of Chick-Fil-A is a good one, but a rare one. :D But, when the Cathey family came out against gay marriage, it polarized their customers, most supported them and a lot didn't.:dunno: I don't think it earned them any new customers, but it did alienate a lot of folks that are now former customers. Will it cause them any real economic harm, no, but they are unique in the fast food business, they are truly the only game in town for chicken sandwiches and GREAT service. :D
 
Reminds me of a deal that was sinking in the mid 80s in which my group was a co-general partner. I called our development partner and asked him what he was doing to get things on track. He said he was praying a lot. Meanwhile, we flew up and met with the lender to restructure the loan and restructured the equity. Basically, took over the deal from him an saved it. We sold that later to a pension fund. They sold it six years ago to a company who's property manager president is my partner in the KA. There an on-point biblical quote.

Best,

Dave
 
JGoodish said:
So you prefer to only do business with atheists and agnostics, who have no unchanging moral law by which to live?

JKG
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Huh? Can you elaborate on your extensive knowledge of agnostic moral law please?
 
N747JB said:
I don't hide who or what I am from anyone, I just think it's not a good idea to use religion, politics, race, or sexuality in business. I have discussions with customers about various topics, and many I don't agree with them on, but I don't feel like my personal views on a subject will help my business. I figure my customer base is pretty close to 50/50 white/black, 50/50 republican/democrat. Does it make any sense for me to put a big sign out front endorsing a candidate? NO, it won't influence those that agree with me, but it will influence those that disagree. It's usually a no win for a business that deals with the public, your example of Chick-Fil-A is a good one, but a rare one. :D But, when the Cathey family came out against gay marriage, it polarized their customers, most supported them and a lot didn't.:dunno: I don't think it earned them any new customers, but it did alienate a lot of folks that are now former customers. Will it cause them any real economic harm, no, but they are unique in the fast food business, they are truly the only game in town for chicken sandwiches and GREAT service. :D
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Well... Zaxbys is usually across the street and when the gay folks got sideways over chick fil a they got an economic boost from supporters.
 
docmirror said:
Huh? Can you elaborate on your extensive knowledge of agnostic moral law please?
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You know, the only thing that keeps humans from killing each other en masse, like all dem non-believers do.
 
People smart enough to realize supplication to an invisible man in the sky is nonsense are similarly smart enough to know that killing their neighbors is a bad thing to do.

Morality comes from people having to live with each other in communities. It predates Abrahamic religions and will outlast them.
 
steingar said:
People smart enough to realize supplication to an invisible man in the sky is nonsense are similarly smart enough to know that killing their neighbors is a bad thing to do.

Morality comes from people having to live with each other in communities. It predates Abrahamic religions and will outlast them.
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Truer words were never spoken.... :thumbsup:
 
bartmc said:
Well... Zaxbys is usually across the street and when the gay folks got sideways over chick fil a they got an economic boost from supporters.
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Yeah, but Zaxby's can't touch Chick-Fil-A's food or service! Although we eat at Zaxby's once a month at work, CFA is the lunch of choice at least once a week! :D
 
N747JB said:
Yeah, but Zaxby's can't touch Chick-Fil-A's food or service! Although we eat at Zaxby's once a month at work, CFA is the lunch of choice at least once a week! :D
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I respect the heck out of Chik Fil A; they have their standards, express them clearly and acknowledge that, by so doing, some will eschew their products. Beats hell out of razor-edge fence-sitting.

Like 'em, hate 'em, your choice; you don't have to wonder where they stand.

They treat their employees pretty well, and it shows in the service you usually get, friendly and helpful.
 
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