How can this happen?

comanchepilot

comanchepilot

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Joe Farrell, yeah, him
I'm departing POC in IMC - 800OVC, tops at 2700MSL - so the cloud deck is about 1000' ATC clears me to "4000, Bracket 26 departure procedure, PRADO V16 PDZ etc etc etc"

The Brackett 26 procedure is runway heading to 1400, left turn to 130, intercept V363 from POM to PRADO.

So I'm climbing out of about 1700 on my way to 4000 - in the turn to 130 - get shopped to SoCal and get an immediate traffic call out: "90P. traffic. 1 o'clock, 3,500, a VFR King Air.

Immediately after that, out of 2900, I get a traffic alert on my GTX-330, I just broke out of the clouds looking for the traffic and there is he - less than a mile - about 3500.

How can a King Air, or anyone, be VFR at 3500, less than 1000 over the top? How can ATC be enabling that type of activity? The ATIS was stating "tops reported at 2800."

Was there much of a collision risk? Perhaps No. Not really - as long as I stayed on the DP I was moderately safe, and IFR does not guarantee separation from VFR traffic - but I'm transitioning from gauges to visual and he is very definitely NOT VFR.

Am I guaranteed sep from IFR flight planned traffic or traffic talking to ATC that SHOULD be on an IFR flight plan? That playing fast and loose with the rules kind of ****ed me off.
 
At that range I'd just go to the guns. Can't get a weapons lock.
 
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I doubt that he was in any way SPECIAL....
 
Atc separates ifr from ifr. It doesn't separate ifr from vfr or vice versa.
 
Why do you think ATC knew what the VFR guys cloud clearance was? What sort of technology do you think they have that would tell the controller that? Maybe this too belongs in the peeve thread?
 
I often wonder how many people cancel IFR before they get 1000 feet above the tops.
 
Yeah as said above, ATC doesn't know if the King Air is maintaining the require BCC simply based on a tops report. They have no obligation to try and enforce a FAR that's impossible to prove as a violation. I'd say ATC didn't provide traffic information in a timely and I would have issued a safety alert but that's about it.
 
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Personally, I drop a 1,000' string with a heavy nut on the end out of my window to gauge my cloud clearance. Without this I may not be able to differentiate 'twixt 700' & 1,000'. :rolleyes:
 
timwinters said:
Personally, I drop a 1,000' string with a heavy nut on the end out of my window to gauge my cloud clearance. Without this I may not be able to differentiate 'twixt 700' & 1,000'. :rolleyes:
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ta-Dah! In defense of the KA guy, Joe, how's he supposed to gage 1000' when descending toward an overcast? Tops reports in my experience are pretty inaccurate.

dtuuri
 
comanchepilot said:
I'm departing POC in IMC - 800OVC, tops at 2700MSL - so the cloud deck is about 1000' ATC clears me to "4000, Bracket 26 departure procedure, PRADO V16 PDZ etc etc etc"

The Brackett 26 procedure is runway heading to 1400, left turn to 130, intercept V363 from POM to PRADO.

So I'm climbing out of about 1700 on my way to 4000 - in the turn to 130 - get shopped to SoCal and get an immediate traffic call out: "90P. traffic. 1 o'clock, 3,500, a VFR King Air.

Immediately after that, out of 2900, I get a traffic alert on my GTX-330, I just broke out of the clouds looking for the traffic and there is he - less than a mile - about 3500.

How can a King Air, or anyone, be VFR at 3500, less than 1000 over the top? How can ATC be enabling that type of activity? The ATIS was stating "tops reported at 2800."

Was there much of a collision risk? Perhaps No. Not really - as long as I stayed on the DP I was moderately safe, and IFR does not guarantee separation from VFR traffic - but I'm transitioning from gauges to visual and he is very definitely NOT VFR.

Am I guaranteed sep from IFR flight planned traffic or traffic talking to ATC that SHOULD be on an IFR flight plan? That playing fast and loose with the rules kind of ****ed me off.
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Class C services include separation between IFR and VFR traffic, but the separation minima is small. Minimum radar separation is target resolution, aka "green between", the targets are not allowed to touch. As for VFR aircraft operating with less than the required distance from clouds, that's primarily a pilot responsibility.
 
SkyHog said:
Atc separates ifr from ifr. It doesn't separate ifr from vfr or vice versa.
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ATC provides IFR/VFR separation in Class B and C airspace. IFR/VFR separation is also provided to participating traffic in the Outer Area associated with Class C airspace areas and in TRSAs. POC is in the Outer Area associated with the Ontario Class C airspace, we know the VFR King Air was participating traffic because the type was known and the Mode C had been verified. Nothing in the OP indicates there was less than the minimum required separation.
 
Joe,

You know how those King Air pilots are.

Oh, hey Dave. :D
 
Palmpilot said:
I often wonder how many people cancel IFR before they get 1000 feet above the tops.
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You never cancel until you're 1000 feet above the tops. If you're VFR, the tops are always at least 1000 feet below whatever your altitude is.

Unless the pilot slips and spills the beans, it's very hard to prove otherwise.
 
azure said:
You never cancel until you're 1000 feet above the tops. If you're VFR, the tops are always at least 1000 feet below whatever your altitude is.

Unless the pilot slips and spills the beans, it's very hard to prove otherwise.
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The actual length of a foot varies depending on flight conditions.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yeah as said above, ATC doesn't know if the King Air is maintaining the require BCC simply based on a tops report. They have no obligation to try and enforce a FAR that's impossible to prove as a violation. I'd say ATC didn't provide traffic information in a timely and I would have issued a safety alert but that's about it.
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These aircraft were being worked by ATC in an area where separation between IFR and VFR is provided. Positive control action is called for here, not a safety alert.
 
I always hear IFR pilots bragging about how they aren't going to run into anyone because they have ATC looking out for them. Perhaps not so much. By the way, how am I supposed to actually measure those cloud clearances?
 
steingar said:
I always hear IFR pilots bragging about how they aren't going to run into anyone because they have ATC looking out for them. Perhaps not so much. By the way, how am I supposed to actually measure those cloud clearances?
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Fly down to the cloud tops, note altimeter, climb no less than 1000ft.

Now in the OPs case if ATIS was reporting tops, they had a way.
 
Skylane81E said:
Fly down to the cloud tops, note altimeter, climb no less than 1000ft..
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Not allowed to fly within a thousand feet of the tops, remember? I usually use clearances as given on the radio or the GPS, but those can be wildly inaccurate, for fairly understandable reasons.

And of course, the "tops" are not just a flat sheet, but come up and down, at least where I fly. Not so easy as all that.
 
steingar said:
Not allowed to fly within a thousand feet of the tops, remember? I usually use clearances as given on the radio or the GPS, but those can be wildly inaccurate, for fairly understandable reasons.

And of course, the "tops" are not just a flat sheet, but come up and down, at least where I fly. Not so easy as all that.
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We dearly need a sarcasm font
 
ATC should have given that VFR aircraft vectoring instructions

:stirpot:
 
That's the problem with ATIS vs AWOS - it can be as much as an hour old, and weather conditions can change on a scale of minutes.
 
Skylane81E said:
Fly down to the cloud tops, note altimeter, climb no less than 1000ft.

Now in the OPs case if ATIS was reporting tops, they had a way.
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Is there a measuring device in common use at airports that can detect cloud tops? (How does it work?)

I don't think so. I assumed that "tops reported on ATIS" meant that ATC had gotten PIREPs on tops and included the info in the next recording. Was the PIREP accurate? Were the tops uniform? Have the tops changed since the PIREP? Lots of room for uncertainty there.
 
timwinters said:
Personally, I drop a 1,000' string with a heavy nut on the end out of my window to gauge my cloud clearance. Without this I may not be able to differentiate 'twixt 700' & 1,000'. :rolleyes:
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I was wondering why you did that on our flight back from Gastons. Glad to finaly know :D
 
airguy said:
That's the problem with ATIS vs AWOS - it can be as much as an hour old, and weather conditions can change on a scale of minutes.
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Disagree. ATIS can be old but a human is involved. If the weather does change the human updates it. AWOS/ASOS udates quicker but no human is involved. So in my view, no problem.
 
steingar said:
By the way, how am I supposed to actually measure those cloud clearances?
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http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-GLR825-...NSBG7C/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1371229901

r24252v35.jpg
 
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roncachamp said:
These aircraft were being worked by ATC in an area where separation between IFR and VFR is provided. Positive control action is called for here, not a safety alert.
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So you don't issue a safety alert if positive control is lost? By the OP's last position report of 1 mile and a 600 ft altitude difference, it's impossible to tell if required separation was going to be maintained. Also, it is not said whether the King Air was currently talking to anyone. He could have been terminated miles ago and on another freq. Since the OP never mentioned the King Air getting traffic calls or acknowledging anything, it's unclear.
 
Velocity173 said:
So you don't issue a safety alert if positive control is lost? By the OP's last position report of 1 mile and a 600 ft altitude difference, it's impossible to tell if required separation was going to be maintained. Also, it is not said whether the King Air was currently talking to anyone. He could have been terminated miles ago and on another freq. Since the OP never mentioned the King Air getting traffic calls or acknowledging anything, it's unclear.
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Nothing in the OP suggests positive control was lost or that separation was an issue.
 
Will this progress to determining the identity of the heavy nut?:D

ron22 said:
I was wondering why you did that on our flight back from Gastons. Glad to finaly know :D
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roncachamp said:
For what reason where a contact approach is an option would they not clear you lower?
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When I was flying into an airport in TN, they did not clear me for any sort of approach, just vectors to the aiport. I was in and out of the bases, and could see the ground but not the airport ahead, visibility was more than 10. I asked for lower and he said I was already at the MVA, and wouldn't clear me lower. I can't cancel IFR because I'm not 500' below, and I can't get a visual, because I don't have the airport in sight. I suppose I could have asked for a published approach, and flown opposite direction to get the IAF, but at that point a contact approach is better.
 
As I said - not a separation issue - that day. I just hate breaking out of the clouds and having my 330 issue a traffic alert - and its not me. I was just cranky - I not calling anyone or sending nasty grams to King Air pilots - it was just less than an optimal safety issue.

ATIS was 1647Z - take off was 10 min later. so prob 13 min after the ATIS tops - ATC asked me what they were - both out of POC and CRQ. . .. its gonna be +/- depending pitot static accuracy and where its set.

And the clouds here are a flat layer when its marine layer. Tops are uniform - bottoms can and are usually a little ragged.

If I was in a Challenger or a Bombardier I would not have been put in that situation!
 
EdFred said:
When I was flying into an airport in TN, they did not clear me for any sort of approach, just vectors to the aiport. I was in and out of the bases, and could see the ground but not the airport ahead, visibility was more than 10. I asked for lower and he said I was already at the MVA, and wouldn't clear me lower. I can't cancel IFR because I'm not 500' below, and I can't get a visual, because I don't have the airport in sight. I suppose I could have asked for a published approach, and flown opposite direction to get the IAF, but at that point a contact approach is better.
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Thats where the contact approach comes in handy . . .
 
roncachamp said:
Nothing in the OP suggests positive control was lost or that separation was an issue.
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2-1-21 Traffic Advisories

'Unless an aircraft is operating within Class A airspace or omission is requested by the pilot, issue traffic advisories to all aircraft (IFR or VFR) on your frequency when, in your judgement, their proximity may diminish to less than the applicable separation minima.'


Apparently the controller thought separation might be an issue.
 
Velocity173 said:
2-1-21 Traffic Advisories

'Unless an aircraft is operating within Class A airspace or omission is requested by the pilot, issue traffic advisories to all aircraft (IFR or VFR) on your frequency when, in your judgement, their proximity may diminish to less than the applicable separation minima.'


Apparently the controller thought separation might be an issue.
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Maybe- then he should turned one of us . . . I was not at MVA yet - just BARELY perhaps - its 2800 in that area - but the C90 sure was -

what was inneresting is he waas heading north - near POC - at 3500 - at least thats what was called out. There is not much more north you can go at 3500 in that neck of the woods without encountering granite. . . .
 
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