Student Pilot in trouble

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Unregistered

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Hello,

I am a current ATC student attending a CTI school with the ultimate goal of working for the FAA. One of the requirements at the school is to earn a PPL. Unfortunately, over Super Bowl weekend I was arrested and charged with DUI (early FEB 2013). To make matters worse, I for whatever reason opted not to blow on the breathlyzer. My license has not yet been suspended, and my hearing was just pushed back to mid-April by my attorney. He is appealing the one year license suspension due to refusal to blow. Again, no administrative actions have been taken against my driving priviledge as of now.

My questions are: Do I need to send a report to the FAA only from the date of any admin action or do they count the arrest itself as something reportable? Also, I am still working towards the PPL since the only thing that has effectively happened right now is the arrest. I plan to send a report as soon as I actually lose my license. On the FAA and ATC side of things, what am I realistically facing and are my hopes of an ATC career gone?

Thanks in advance for any responses. I know I made a seriously bad judgement call so this is really quite embarassing for me
 
Unregistered said:
I am a current ATC student attending a CTI school with the ultimate goal of working for the FAA. One of the requirements at the school is to earn a PPL. Unfortunately, over Super Bowl weekend I was arrested and charged with DUI (early FEB 2013). To make matters worse, I for whatever reason opted not to blow on the breathlyzer. My license has not yet been suspended, and my hearing was just pushed back to mid-April by my attorney. He is appealing the one year license suspension due to refusal to blow. Again, no administrative actions have been taken against my driving priviledge as of now.
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Bad juju. Refusing to blow is a big red flag for the FAA -- the FAA Aeromedical folks automatically assume that you were over the "really bad" level of 0.15, and that brings in a host of other issues for FAA medical certification. Little you can do about that now, though.

Do I need to send a report to the FAA only from the date of any admin action or do they count the arrest itself as something reportable?
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If you are convicted or any other "motor vehicle action"...
(c) For the purposes of paragraphs (d), (e), and (f) of this section, a motor vehicle action means:
(1) A conviction after November 29, 1990, for the violation of any Federal or State statute relating to the operation of a motor vehicle while intoxicated by alcohol or a drug, while impaired by alcohol or a drug, or while under the influence of alcohol or a drug;
(2) The cancellation, suspension, or revocation of a license to operate a motor vehicle after November 29, 1990, for a cause related to the operation of a motor vehicle while intoxicated by alcohol or a drug, while impaired by alcohol or a drug, or while under the influence of alcohol or a drug; or
(3) The denial after November 29, 1990, of an application for a license to operate a motor vehicle for a cause related to the operation of a motor vehicle while intoxicated by alcohol or a drug, while impaired by alcohol or a drug, or while under the influence of alcohol or a drug.
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... occurs, you will have 60 days from the date of the action (not your arrest) to report that to the FAA Civil Aviation Security Division.
(e) Each person holding a certificate issued under this part shall provide a written report of each motor vehicle action to the FAA, Civil Aviation Security Division (AMC-700), P.O. Box 25810, Oklahoma City, OK 73125, not later than 60 days after the motor vehicle action. The report must include:
(1) The person's name, address, date of birth, and airman certificate number;
(2) The type of violation that resulted in the conviction or the administrative action;
(3) The date of the conviction or administrative action;
(4) The State that holds the record of conviction or administrative action; and
(5) A statement of whether the motor vehicle action resulted from the same incident or arose out of the same factual circumstances related to a previously reported motor vehicle action.
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In addition, you will have to report the arrest on your next FAA medical application, regardless of whatever else happens (i.e., even if all charges are dismissed).

On the FAA and ATC side of things, what am I realistically facing and are my hopes of an ATC career gone?
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I don't know, but the folks at your school's CTI program probably do.

Bruce will probably be around after work tonight to give you more information on the Aeromedical consequences and how to deal with them.
 
Thanks a lot for your reply. This whole thing is driving me crazy. I feel I should mention, I am 25, first offense, and combat veteran (got out June 2012). There is a good chance I will be accepted to an ARD program, which upon successful completion will erase the arrest/charges off my criminal record. Not sure how much that helps me, regardless I understand I will have a lot of honest explaining to do with the FAA.

I haven't talked to anyone at the school about this because I am not sure how they are expected to react to this, or what they may be required to do. Also, I'm a little worried about getting a PPL, if simply pending charges will stop me from earning one at this point. Right now I'm trying to keep it cool and continue with my schooling/training, however I'm also worried that if by continuing with flying on pending DUI charges, it will be seen as a deceptive and dishonest action by the FAA. Trying to simply find the right balance between doing the right thing and not incriminating myself further..
 
Unregistered said:
Thanks a lot for your reply. This whole thing is driving me crazy. I feel I should mention, I am 25, first offense, and combat veteran (got out June 2012). There is a good chance I will be accepted to an ARD program, which upon successful completion will erase the arrest/charges off my criminal record. Not sure how much that helps me, regardless I understand I will have a lot of honest explaining to do with the FAA.
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It may wipe your criminal record, but it doesn't wipe all your records, and the FAA question is "have you ever..." not "does your criminal record show..."

I haven't talked to anyone at the school about this because I am not sure how they are expected to react to this, or what they may be required to do.
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I don't know about your school, but when I ran the aviation program at a university, one of our rules for the flight students was that any drug or alcohol-related action (including an arrest) had to be reported to us immediately. Among other things, this allowed us to provide appropriate FAA-related advice to the student so they would not get in bigger trouble by not complying with the FAA's requirements. We instituted that rule after one of our students failed to report a DUI-related license suspension within the required 60 days, and only when the FAA letter came in about a month later telling him to send in his pilot and medical certificates did he come to us for help -- too late.

Also, I'm a little worried about getting a PPL, if simply pending charges will stop me from earning one at this point.
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Not by the FAA's rules. As far as the FAA is concerned, you can keep flying until the motor vehicle action is reported, and that happens only after the action occurs. Even then, first offenses under 0.15 generally do not stop your flying. Failure to blow, however, is treated as an over-0.15, so you may have to jump through a bunch of hoops to stay in the air at that point.

Right now I'm trying to keep it cool and continue with my schooling/training, however I'm also worried that if by continuing with flying on pending DUI charges, it will be seen as a deceptive and dishonest action by the FAA.
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No, it will not. Just follow the FAA's rules and you will not be "in trouble" (i.e., facing an enforcement action) with the FAA. OTOH, how your school will view that may be another story entirely. My advice is to be open and honest with the school. Talk to your program advisor about this ASAP.

Trying to simply find the right balance between doing the right thing and not incriminating myself further..
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Your attorney can tell you about criminal matters, but from an FAA perspective, I don't think there's anything you can do to incriminate yourself further other than not file the required FAA reports as they come due.

That said, I don't know your school's policies for this situation, but generally speaking, when dealing with the university, openness and transparency usually go a lot farther in the long run than secretiveness. Saying "I screwed up" usually gains more respect than deception and covering up.
 
Good luck with your problem. I have but one question. WHY DO PEOPLE DRINK AND DRIVE? In this day and age there are so many ways to avoid this but too many people do not. I know you are probably kicking yourself for this, but this can be a life changing issue, and what I see in your post is concern about how this may affect your school and career and try to make it disappear, but not what are you going to do to make sure this never happens. I am probably off based and over reacting to your situation and your plans and if so I am sorry, but driving drunk as far as I am concerned is a mortal sin.
 
Unregistered said:
Thanks in advance for any responses. I know I made a seriously bad judgement call so this is really quite embarassing for me
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How can you describe the choice to break the law and put people's lives in danger as a "judgement call"?
 
douglas393 said:
I am probably off based and over reacting to your situation and your plans and if so I am sorry, but driving drunk as far as I am concerned is a mortal sin.
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Whether or not one's immortal soul is in jeopardy over a DUI is not something we'll settle here, but while the FAA hasn't yet made one DUI subject to the death penalty, it can be a career killer in aviation. Nevertheless, I'm a flight instructor, not a rabbi -- I'm going to stick to giving straight factual advice on this and leave the moral matters to my brother (who is a rabbi).
 
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Ron Levy said:
Whether or not one's immortal soul is in jeopardy over a DUI is not something we'll settle here, and while the FAA hasn't yet made one DUI subject to the death penalty, it can be a career killer in aviation. Nevertheless, I'm a flight instructor, not a rabbi -- I'm going to stick to giving straight factual advice on this and leave the moral matters to my brother the rabbi.
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Mortal was not meant in a religous fashion. Maybe I should put it in quotes the next time. It was meant in the life and death fashion. If the OP chooses to do things that are stupid and have potentially fatal consequences, that is his decision, as long as he does not kill any one else with his stupid actions. However, unfortunately DUI is subject to the death penalty, unfortunately, it is more often the unsuspecting victims of the drunk driver, than the drunk driver. You may want to leave the subject as a straight factual issue, but regardless of your ***** footing around the issue drunk drivers kill and maim people every hour of the day, and I am for one tired of the mayhem they leave. As far as I am concerned you drive drunk, you lose your license forever. You hurt someone while driving drunk, you go to jail (which you pay for by hard labor) until your victims say you can leave. You kill someone while driving drunk the death penalty is too good for you.

I may be harsh, but believe me I have taken care of more of the unfortunate victims of the selfish acts of the drunk driver than I care to remember. There is absolutely no excuse for driving drunk. The OP made an unfortunate decision, has not owned up to it, and gets a pat on the head from you and the FAA. Sorry I do not buy it. I will thank him for his service to our country, but that does not absolve him of his actions.
 
Don't be so quick to condemn this guy.

You can get a DUI just for standing next to your car with keys in hand with no intent to drive.
 
wickedsprint said:
Don't be so quick to condemn this guy.

You can get a DUI just for standing next to your car with keys in hand with no intent to drive.
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If he got arrested for standing next to his car with his keys in hand and he had no intention to drive then that is not really driving while under the influence, and yes I am being too harsh and quick to condemn and I apologize. However, his post does not suggest that, and I have seen and taken care of too many victims of drunk drivers to feel any other way about drunk driving. Drunk driving is a choice a person makes, and personally I feel there should be serious consequences if someone chooses to do it. Maybe I am being too draconian, but death is permanent, and disability is life changing even if it is not permanent(though it often is). Driving like flying is a privilege not a right. Abuse it then you should lose it.
 
I was a young guy just out of the service once. I had a few and drove a couple of times. I didn't mean too, but it just worked out that way. I was just lucky I didn't get stopped. I also did a lot of other things in my life that were not real smart in retrospect. The OP sounds like a guy that knows he screwed up and is trying to deal with it.

Other than that he wants to know how to preserve his career, just like any of us in the same situation would. What's the problem with helping him do that?
 
Alexb2000 said:
I was a young guy just out of the service once. I had a few and drove a couple of times. I didn't mean too, but it just worked out that way. I was just lucky I didn't get stopped. I also did a lot of other things in my life that were not real smart in retrospect. The OP sounds like a guy that knows he screwed up and is trying to deal with it.

Other than that he wants to know how to preserve his career, just like any of us in the same situation would. What's the problem with helping him do that?
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Couldn't agree more. I think we have all done stupid stuff......
 
True we have all done stupid things, and many of us have driven while drunk and gotten away with it. I was 18 once too(when the drinking age was 18, and was living in New Orleans going to college), but never once did I drive drunk, even then I knew better, and at that time there was no such thing as MADD, or designated drivers or what not. You want to give a drunk driver a pass on accountability because you feel for him and his stupidity, that is your right, but I strongly disagree. Way too many people get mangled every day because of drunk drivers and if people are not held accountable for doing things that can hurt others(which is what happens with the majority of drunk drivers) than one of these days the message may hit home to you. I have sent way too much time consoling, counselling, and treating drunk drivers, their families, and their victims, and if my harsh words and harsh feelings prevents one person from driving drunk and hurting others then I made a difference and that counts.

Drunk driving affects us all. My guess is this guy did a lot more than get in his after having one or two beers, and as far as I am concerned he needs to be punished.

Sorry if I am ruffling feathers, but until you see what drunk driving does to people in the real world, it is easy to try to give them a pass.
 
douglas393 said:
True we have all done stupid things, and many of us have driven while drunk and gotten away with it. I was 18 once too(when the drinking age was 18, and was living in New Orleans going to college), but never once did I drive drunk, even then I knew better, and at that time there was no such thing as MADD, or designated drivers or what not. You want to give a drunk driver a pass on accountability because you feel for him and his stupidity, that is your right, but I strongly disagree. Way too many people get mangled every day because of drunk drivers and if people are not held accountable for doing things that can hurt others(which is what happens with the majority of drunk drivers) than one of these days the message may hit home to you. I have sent way too much time consoling, counselling, and treating drunk drivers, their families, and their victims, and if my harsh words and harsh feelings prevents one person from driving drunk and hurting others then I made a difference and that counts.

Drunk driving affects us all. My guess is this guy did a lot more than get in his after having one or two beers, and as far as I am concerned he needs to be punished.

Sorry if I am ruffling feathers, but until you see what drunk driving does to people in the real world, it is easy to try to give them a pass.
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The issue I have is we're not talking in generalities here, this is being directed at an individual on this board. We are not aware of ANY facts concerning his situation and it isn't our place to impose judgement regardless.

BTW- For each of us that think we haven't done anything to endanger others, we're just fooling ourselves. Ever speed, drive on bald tires, text while driving, jay walk, tear the tag off a mattress?
 
douglas393 said:
If he got arrested for standing next to his car with his keys in hand and he had no intention to drive then that is not really driving while under the influence, and yes I am being too harsh and quick to condemn and I apologize. However, his post does not suggest that, and I have seen and taken care of too many victims of drunk drivers to feel any other way about drunk driving. Drunk driving is a choice a person makes, and personally I feel there should be serious consequences if someone chooses to do it. Maybe I am being too draconian, but death is permanent, and disability is life changing even if it is not permanent(though it often is). Driving like flying is a privilege not a right. Abuse it then you should lose it.
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You can get arrested for DUI without being behind the wheel. They only need to show control over vehicle. Proximity plus keys = control.
 
Alexb2000 said:
The issue I have is we're not talking in generalities here, this is being directed at an individual on this board. We are not aware of ANY facts concerning his situation and it isn't our place to impose judgement regardless.

BTW- For each of us that think we haven't done anything to endanger others, we're just fooling ourselves. Ever speed, drive on bald tires, text while driving, jay walk, tear the tag off a mattress?
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You are right we are talking about the individual. There is a huge difference between drunk driving, and speeding, or driving on bald tires. As for texting while driving, I feel about as strongly about that as I do about drunk driving. I won't even touch jay walking, or tearing tags off of a mattress(which is legal as long as you own the mattress). The OP talks about embarrassment, bad judgment, not wanting to incriminate himself, get the thing off his record, how his attorney is going to help him out, etc. Seems to me he has a lot of growing up to do. I realize I am coming out very strong and possibly hurtful, but as I have stated before drunk driving hurts too many people, and it is preventable. If I have ruffled feathers I am sorry, but maybe he will think twice before drinking and driving again.
 
douglas393 said:
True we have all done stupid things, and many of us have driven while drunk and gotten away with it. I was 18 once too(when the drinking age was 18, and was living in New Orleans going to college), but never once did I drive drunk, even then I knew better, and at that time there was no such thing as MADD, or designated drivers or what not. You want to give a drunk driver a pass on accountability because you feel for him and his stupidity, that is your right, but I strongly disagree. Way too many people get mangled every day because of drunk drivers and if people are not held accountable for doing things that can hurt others(which is what happens with the majority of drunk drivers) than one of these days the message may hit home to you. I have sent way too much time consoling, counselling, and treating drunk drivers, their families, and their victims, and if my harsh words and harsh feelings prevents one person from driving drunk and hurting others then I made a difference and that counts.

Drunk driving affects us all. My guess is this guy did a lot more than get in his after having one or two beers, and as far as I am concerned he needs to be punished.

Sorry if I am ruffling feathers, but until you see what drunk driving does to people in the real world, it is easy to try to give them a pass.
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I don't think I singled out drunk driving and gave it thumbs up. I simply said we have all done stupid things. I am not going to bash the OP as he is asking a question and looking for an answer. Let's stay on track.....
 
geneseib said:
How can you describe the choice to break the law and put people's lives in danger as a "judgement call"?
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Alcohol can impair judgement. It is definitely shown to lower inhibitions. After drinking you need to exercise good judgement to get home but ironically your ability to do so is at a low ebb when you need it most. With experience it is possible to learn to exercise good judgement even while inebriated, but that is also another Catch-22 when you are young and inexperienced. The inexperienced are also least likely to know when they are drunk or just a little "buzzed".

Obviously repeatedly making the same mistake indicates a personality problem, not an alcohol induced one.
 
CT Arrow said:
I don't think I singled out drunk driving and gave it thumbs up. I simply said we have all done stupid things. I am not going to bash the OP as he is asking a question and looking for an answer. Let's stay on track.....
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Fine let's stay on track. I believe he will probably need to report this to the FAA, and I would be real surprised if his school does not require him to report it to them as well. After he does the reporting, he will need to face the consequences. How's that for staying on track.
 
I wouldn't wait another day to report it to the school. My part 141 university required immediate notification with expulsion from the program for non-compliance.
 
I wouldn't report anything to anyone before getting criminal law advice from a decent atty in the field. You start down a road that you can't turn off of once you start blabbing.
 
Wow.

Well you just went to the bottom of the selection pool for Federal ATC. The VERY bottom. We have a guy localy who was already on staff when he got his, and he had to sign the "any thing futher, even just conduct and I waive my right to process, and I'm gone" contract. And if your'e not hired yet, that was a baaaaddd boo-boo. Now, if someone wants you bad enough, they have to sponsor you through the in house ATC federal waiver process. Nobody is gonna want to do that when the pool is pretty competitive. I think you're pretty much GONE.

Don't forget to make your 61.15 report within 60 days after the admin action or your pilot cert/ student pilot cert gets revoked/suspended/trashed ON RECORD.

61.15:

(e) Each person holding a certificate issued under this part shall provide a written report of each motor vehicle action to the FAA, Civil Aviation Security Division (AMC-700), P.O. Box 25810, Oklahoma City, OK 73125, not later than 60 days after the motor vehicle action. The report must include:
(1) The person's name, address, date of birth, and airman certificate number;
(2) The type of violation that resulted in the conviction or the administrative action; (3) The date of the conviction or administrative action;

The Medical app requries that you report the arrest. Yuo will have to pay for formal evaluation with a Substance Abuse evaluator (a state licensee). You'll need letters from employers, a few blood tests (not required but if you don't have 'em it casts a lot of doubt on you personally), and a DL search back to day one....and a personal statement. And man, I have read some really bad, self incriminating ones. You didn't blow? What were you thinking? That was the ONLY way to duck (if you end up under 0.15). Now you are presumed to be over 0.15 and the onus of having alcohol tolerance is upon you, to prove you are not tolerant. Tolerance=chronic abuse in the eyes of the FAA.

Dude! Do you get it? you are training for a position of responsiblity and that was pretty pretty dumb? Now you are at the BACK of the pack. No, the BUTT of the pack. Sigh.

CTArrow's comment is just Wayyy off the mark when you are trying to line up for a position of trust. It's okay if you're doing something youthful and stupid and you're okay with flipping burgers....but ATC is NOT the flippin o' the burgers.

Why do you think Ray LaHood blew the Bandy Rabbit (aka FAA Adm Randy Babbit) out the door even though he beat the rap at 0.07? sigh.
 
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Well if I'm pretty much gone then it doesn't really matter if I report or not. Thanks for the advice guys, I guess I have no chance in aviation. At least I know that now before wasting all my money, I can at least use my money towards something I can be successful in and be a productive member of society. Thank you to everyone for their advice
 
bbchien said:
CTArrow's comment is just Wayyy off the mark when you are trying to line up for a position of trust. It's okay if you're doing something youthful and stupid and you're okay with flipping burgers....but ATC is NOT the flippin o' the burgers.
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It was a response based on actions. Get over it!
 
Unregistered said:
Well if I'm pretty much gone then it doesn't really matter if I report or not. Thanks for the advice guys, I guess I have no chance in aviation. At least I know that now before wasting all my money, I can at least use my money towards something I can be successful in and be a productive member of society. Thank you to everyone for their advice
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Don't count yourself out just yet.

Go forth and sin no more. This too shall pass. It all depends on how you proceed from here. For sure the next few years will be a challenge, but the farther you put this behind you, the less impact it will have.

This coming from a two time DUI loser that is now a professional pilot with a security clearance.
 
docmirror said:
I wouldn't report anything to anyone before getting criminal law advice from a decent atty in the field. You start down a road that you can't turn off of once you start blabbing.
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If you need an attorney to understand 14 CFR 61.15, the instructions on the FAA medical application, and your school's rules for its students, that's good advice.
 
Unregistered said:
Well if I'm pretty much gone then it doesn't really matter if I report or not.
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It very much matters if you want to be a pilot. Failing to report gets you behind a very large FAA 8-ball.
I guess I have no chance in aviation.
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No chance as an FAA controller, perhaps, but there are still plenty of pilots out there who got one DUI and recovered.
 
docmirror said:
I wouldn't report anything to anyone before getting criminal law advice from a decent atty in the field. You start down a road that you can't turn off of once you start blabbing.
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As a criminal defense attorney, I disagree with this. I know little of the FAA in connection with DUI. I concentrate on the ramifications with the state.
 
Unregistered said:
I feel I should mention, I am 25, first offense, and combat veteran (got out June 2012).
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Thank you for your service.

Don't give up. Since this happened early February you should still be within the 60 day window to report the arrest.

I'll have to take the word of others regarding your continued chances on ATC employment, but I believe you still have options in aviation, including commercial piloting. Suggest you mentally segregate the judgements offered from the advice on bureaucratic actions to take that Bruce and others have provided and go forward with the actions.
 
Unregistered said:
Well if I'm pretty much gone then it doesn't really matter if I report or not. Thanks for the advice guys, I guess I have no chance in aviation. At least I know that now before wasting all my money, I can at least use my money towards something I can be successful in and be a productive member of society. Thank you to everyone for their advice
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Go to the Rational Recovery website and take the free AVRT course. I don't know if you'll ever have a chance working for the government since they are holier than thou, but your chances in aviation definitely are not over as long you quit drinking forever.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you need an attorney to understand 14 CFR 61.15, the instructions on the FAA medical application, and your school's rules for its students, that's good advice.
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One thing I do know, is that there's various levels of 'law' for everything in the US. Some people, when they don't file their income tax get a waiver, and a bill. Others get a bill, and a penalty, and a jail sentence. Some people get caught in the middle of a substance problem, they get a variance, the arrest won't show up, and you can still answer the question the right way.

If anything in the US requires interpretation, it's criminal law. As someone who's been processed for murder in my younger days, and yet no trace of it will ever appear on my record, a good lawyer can often do things - interesting things that not just anyone can do. BTW, the chief of police for a major city in the south has a record, including prison time. And yet - he's the chief of police.

Being an engineer by trade, I"m a pretty black and white guy. Except when it comes to criminal law. There are so many shades of gray, they can't even be counted.

Thanks for your 'advice'.:no:
 
docmirror said:
If anything in the US requires interpretation, it's criminal law. As someone who's been processed for murder in my younger days, and yet no trace of it will ever appear on my record, a good lawyer can often do things - interesting things that not just anyone can do. BTW, the chief of police for a major city in the south has a record, including prison time. And yet - he's the chief of police.
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If you read the relevant posts carefully, would see the OP's questions were not about criminal law, but rather about FAA regs and university policy, and s/he already has a lawyer for the criminal aspects.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you read the relevant posts carefully, would see the OP's questions were not about criminal law, but rather about FAA regs and university policy, and s/he already has a lawyer for the criminal aspects.
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I did, and the "FAA regs" are - well, regulatory. As in, they have legal authority.
 
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