Aviation's Glass Ceiling-why more women don't fly

Find me the women riding sportbikes, or any kind of motorcycle for that matter. Aren't many. Find me the ones participating in any kind of motorsport. Sorry, they're pretty thin on the ground.

Here's a really good one. Girls have been making academic gains on boys for decades. Now, high earning professions like medicine routinely have female participants, the classes at the medical school at my institution are over 50% female. The Veterinary school is greater than 75% female, and the female representation is one the rise at both.

Now, find me the women in the Engineering schools. How about women getting Physics doctorates? Women mathematicians? Sorry, these are high earning professions, and once again females are dramatically underrepresented. Perhaps there is some sort of cultural barrier, but I doubt it. I doubt even more strongly that there are cultural barriers in other motor sports.

As the end of the day I try and remind myself that female humans are not just males with rearranged reproductive organs. There is sexual dimorphism in perception and cognition. To try and deny that is to try and deny our underlying biology.
 
Who did they interview, 1950's Stepford Wives?

As a black male, I am suspicious of these findings. They seem to have a "those poor people" slant. You can replace "female" with "minority" and it amounts to the same patronizing prejudice by those who think anyone other than white males are naturally inferior,and besides, not one of the reasons could be strictly classified as an exclusively "female" reason.

Amelia Earhart, Pancho Barnes, Bessie Coleman, Phoebe Omlie, Eugene Bullard, James Banning and anyone else who didn't fit the profile had to overcome the prevalent "white male" bias to acheive what they did and none of those weak excuses would have discouraged any of them. Should the aviation industry do more to market to women and minorities? Probably. Would the aviation industry benefit from adding talent from a woefully untapped pool? Of course. Do women and minorities need to be "courted" or "accommodated"? Absolutely not. I can't speak for women, or anybody else for that matter, but I wouldn't want it that way.

Michele said:
Cool article in AOPA Flight Training magazine.

The article is titled, Aviation's Glass Ceiling. It discusses the issue of why there aren't more women pilots. I thought it was interesting in that it went beyond financial issues to understand the dearth of women going into flying.

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2013/March/career_pilot.html

Here is an excerp.
The phenomenon of female disinterest in professional flying as a personal career track is the subject of a study commissioned by the Wolf Aviation Fund Teaching Women to Fly Research Project. Its report, based on extensive interviews, concludes there are 10 major barriers that women face:

1. Lack of money for general aviation flight training.

2. Instructor-student communication incompatibility.

3. Instructor interruptus, when instructors leave flight training to take airline or charter jobs, often requiring the student to start over with another instructor. This is time consuming, expensive, and discouraging to many female students.

4. Lack of female mentors and support systems.

5. Personal lack of confidence in their ability and a “fear of flying,” especially of stalling the airplane too early in the training process.

6. Lack of experience with and knowledge of mechanical systems.

7. Lack of map reading experience and orienteering skill sets.

8. Flight schools perceived as indifferent to female students.

9. Famous female pilots largely unknown as role models to non-aviator women.

10. Lack of emotional support from family and friends who perceive flying as “too dangerous.”
Click to expand...
 
steingar said:
Find me the women riding sportbikes, or any kind of motorcycle for that matter. Aren't many. Find me the ones participating in any kind of motorsport. Sorry, they're pretty thin on the ground.

Here's a really good one. Girls have been making academic gains on boys for decades. Now, high earning professions like medicine routinely have female participants, the classes at the medical school at my institution are over 50% female. The Veterinary school is greater than 75% female, and the female representation is one the rise at both.

Now, find me the women in the Engineering schools. How about women getting Physics doctorates? Women mathematicians? Sorry, these are high earning professions, and once again females are dramatically underrepresented. Perhaps there is some sort of cultural barrier, but I doubt it. I doubt even more strongly that there are cultural barriers in other motor sports.

As the end of the day I try and remind myself that female humans are not just males with rearranged reproductive organs. There is sexual dimorphism in perception and cognition. To try and deny that is to try and deny our underlying biology.
Click to expand...

Sorry to burst your bubble but I actively participate in drag racing and road racing. I've owned my corvette z06 nearly 3 years now. Before that I had a gto. I don't ride bikes though.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Man, why did you have to bring up that yoke-pumpin' GG? She is probably not the best poster child of equality.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Click to expand...

What? Plenty of men getting jet jobs with 250 TT. Somewhere...I imagine. :D
 
Last edited:
Z06_Mir said:
Sorry to burst your bubble but I actively participate in drag racing and road racing. I've owned my corvette z06 nearly 3 years now. Before that I had a gto. I don't ride bikes though.
Click to expand...

I ride bikes.


U 'mirin?

bike.jpg
 
Z06_Mir said:
Sorry to burst your bubble but I actively participate in drag racing and road racing. I've owned my corvette z06 nearly 3 years now. Before that I had a gto. I don't ride bikes though.
Click to expand...

She sounds like a keeper..:yes:;)..

Can you send a pic of the Z06 ?:D
 
Z06_Mir said:
Sorry to burst your bubble but I actively participate in drag racing and road racing. I've owned my corvette z06 nearly 3 years now. Before that I had a gto. I don't ride bikes though.
Click to expand...

I meant no offense, nor did I try and imply that there weren't female participants in these ventures. What I said was that women were underrepresented in such activities. Are your drag and road racing circles 50% female? The population is.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It is a good/worthy discussion, but as with anything relating to Affirmative Action, you are going to get some ugly and emotional responses, mostly from folks that lived though the periods where Affirmative Action led to less than fully competent people doing the job.
Click to expand...

Sure, affirmative action led to some inequities, but not nearly as many as existed in the unregulated "white" society that preceded it.

Some of us used the experience of affirmative action as an opportunity to learn empathy and, with the shoe on the other foot, see firsthand what it's like to be the oppressed instead of the oppressor and open our minds to others' hardships.

Others, however, just kept their minds closed, retreated further yet into a world saturated with self pity. Instead of using it as an opportunity of empathy they simply dove deeper into their divisive mindset...us vs. them...in race, gender, religion, etc.

A sad statement...but a view that seems to be (for the most part) dying out with the older generation, thankfully.
 
Last edited:
ClimbnSink said:
Is there a problem with those percentages?
Click to expand...

They seem to be reasonable, give or take a few percent.

More women are getting college degrees these days by a long shot, all those things are open to women if they want it.
Click to expand...
So long as men aren't being made victims in the process, good for them. Know any men who have been denied access to college due to their gender?

Should we reduce the number of women undergraduates to even the numbers?
Click to expand...
I have no idea why you ask that. No one is proposing to reduce the number of male pilots (or female undergrads) to bring the gender ratios in line with that of the general population.

93% of workplace fatalities happen to men, do we need to even that number out? This is all stupid, women can do whatever they want, claiming victim status is laughable.
Click to expand...
With regard to "victimization" remember that it wasn't until 1920 that women gained the right to vote in the U.S. That is within the living memory of the oldest generation now alive.

Just so I understand - are you of the belief that women have never been victims of sexual discrimination, or that such discrimination was shut off quickly, like an electric light is shut off?

Several women pilots have recounted experiences on this thread where a man received the deference accorded a pilot when all evidence indicated the woman was clearly the pilot. You've simply dismissed the existence of this evidence, ironically seeming to undermine your case and verifying the case they are making: that women are still dismissed out of hand due to unequal treatment.
 
Well, this discussion has been entirely too tame, so let me stir up the fire a bit with three observations about the start of the article quote by the OP.

"So it goes that at a major airline interview in the 1990s, there included this scenario-based question: “You just arrived at the gate after a five-leg trip about 4:30 p.m. The captain asks ‘How about meeting the crew and me for dinner? I’ll pick you up in the hotel lobby at 6:30.’ You say ‘Sure!’ You arrive at the lobby precisely at 6:30 and, to your surprise, you see the captain exiting the elevator wearing a dress. What do you say?”

Pause. Pause again. You repress a grin, maybe a smirk, as your mind envisions a cross-dresser making his way into the lobby. Of course, the correct answer is, “Gosh, Jane, that is a great-looking dress!”

The captain is a lady. Legend has it that more than a few tripped up on this question. Why is that? The perception was that professional airline flying is a “man’s world” and only males make captain."

My first observation is to reveal my age by saying that starting every thought with "so" is something that started with people who are about 25-30, as far as I can tell. People my age start thoughts (when we have any) with "well" or "uh".

The next observation is that the writer, a male, shows some interesting social programming. The "correct" answer is to compliment Jane on her dress. Let me differ. If I went out to dinner with some male crew members, I'd be very unlikely to say anything at all about what they wore. Men telling men they have on nice clothes is not a very common phenomenon. So, telling the female captain her dress is nice is treating her not as part of the crew but as a woman. The captain would be fully within her rights to be offended. This is not a date, it is simply the crew getting together for supper. No comments on clothes are called for. The writer is showing his subliminal bias.

The writer next tells us that the captain is a lady. Well, la di da. A lady, don't you know. Males are men, a neutral term, but increasingly it seems females are not women, which seems to have taken on some connotation of being dubious, but must be a lady, which of course is a term of enhancement. It used to be men and women, ladies and gentlemen, male and female. Now, it seems always safer to call a female a lady, even if she's just been in a hair pulling, rolling on the floor, drunken, cat fight. (Can I say cat fight?) I'm all for it. Here's to the ladies, men.

I do hope no one takes this too seriously. But if you do...... :)
 
jnmeade said:
I do hope no one takes this too seriously. But if you do...... :)
Click to expand...
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I read your post and my comment was going to be, "Pretty sure you are overthinking this.." :D

One thing I've observed is that people seem to want to categorize female pilots as all being somewhat similar. We wouldn't think of doing that to male pilots. Look at all the different opinions on this subject as well as many others. Everyone is an individual with different personalities and traits.
 
I'll say this, one thing that scares me is flying with a pilot I don't know as a passenger. If several pilots I didn't know we're lined up and I had to fly with one, I'd pick the woman every time.

Is that sexist, or smart?
 
Everskyward said:
One thing I've observed is that people seem to want to categorize female pilots as all being somewhat similar. We wouldn't think of doing that to male pilots. Look at all the different opinions on this subject as well as many others. Everyone is an individual with different personalities and traits.
Click to expand...

I'd be curious to see a breakdown of pilot personality types (Myers-Briggs perhaps) by gender.
 
I think that some of the reasons that have been proposed to explain the gender disparity in the pilot population apply equally well to men. They just don't want to -- that is true of the vast majority of men as well. I'm not sure that fewer women want to fly than men. I do believe that at least in the past, it took a stronger desire to overcome the societal biases against women in traditionally male professions. Today women are still paid less, on average, for the same work, so there may be fewer who feel they can afford to do it. Again, you may want something, but how badly do you want it? What are you willing to sacrifice for it? That level of passion for flying might be rarer in women than in men, I'm just not sure.

I never wanted to be a professional pilot, but I grew up near an airport. It had a control tower and a lot of commercial traffic, but back then it had a flight school with a big flashy sign and a lot of single engine planes flew over my house every day. Gosh, that was such a cool thing! I always dreamed that I would fly one of those little planes. But I knew it was expensive, so much so that it never seemed realistic, and my parents were very protective and never encouraged me to do it. So it wasn't until I'd finished grad school and had gone through a lot of personal changes, and had a fairly well-paying job and met someone who had been a student pilot there and actually owned one of those planes, that I really started thinking seriously about it. She took me on a flight to Wisconsin, IFR, and I was so struck by how awesome it actually was up there that I decided I really wanted to finally pursue this dream. But it wouldn't have happened except that I could finally afford to do it, something that I couldn't have afforded so easily when I was younger. It would have taken much more sacrifice, and the fact is, I didn't have that burning passion for it until much later in life.

And I'm in a fairly small minority of women in that I never wanted to raise a family or even get married. The pressures and expectations that apply to married women (all societal and cultural, this is NOT biology guys) make it all that much harder.

This is all without even considering how much professional aviation is a boys' club -- I imagine it must be, but my only personal experience is in my profession which is very much male dominated though getting less so as of the last two decades. Still, the percentage of physics graduate students who are female is much larger than that of faculty. It's not that women aren't interested in physics. And in some university physics departments, women make up a larger percentage of the faculty than they do here. Every department has its own culture. Some do treat us as equals and welcome us. Others, not so much.
 
Oh geez. Wage gap does not exist. The desire to make replica mini-mes is not a social construct, there is no blank slate and higher education has jumped the shark.
 
I've taken the online M-B tests lots of times. Best I can figure I'm an IN--. I can go from T to F by changing one answer, and ditto for P and J.

I'm almost on an astrological cusp too... :crazy:
 
AuntPeggy said:
Me, too. Air Force recruiter told me 42 years ago that there were two jobs open for me in the Air Force. If I had a degree, I could be a nurse. Otherwise, I could be a clerk. I looked around at the women in the Air Force and realized it was true.

This month the administration decided to open more military jobs to women and there was a furor on this board over that as well. Let's agree that opportunities for women are still not on an equal footing with men. I don't know how many pilots come from the military percentage-wise, but I do know that that avenue of entry was shut at one time and is being opened a little more now.

If women just don't want to be pilots as some have claimed, then finding out why women don't want to be pilots is not whining. It is curiosity or it is fact-finding. I personally spent 50 years in the knowledge that women don't fly and I was ok with that. Once I found out that women do fly, I did it. No problem.

I, too, noticed that nearly all of the reasons listed in the article apply to men and women alike. Not a shock really. The biggest difference that I see in the list is the lack of women mentors and role models. So, is it that women don't fly because women don't fly? sigh.

All I can do as a pilot is to let others know that women do fly. And that it is fun for women to fly. And that women can have a good career flying. The same is true for men as well.
Click to expand...

Well said.
This whole discussion reminds me of a something similar, the discussion of the low percentage of black pilots. Over the years since getting my PPL (1999), I've only run across a handful. All of my instructors and mentors were white men. So I can relate to the women here. It's only natural to feel a sense of isolation when you don't see many others like you around. Many on this board have accused me of whining also:rolleyes:

I've often wished more blacks were involved in aviation but I understand some of the reasons why many aren't. Raising these questions and seeking answers and solutions, isn't whining.

Edit: I did have one Cuban American instructor. :)
 
Last edited:
52 years of reverse discrimination, sorry, I mean affirmative action, and they are still complaining....

Half a century of LBJ's Great Society. Poverty, welfare and food stamps are at an all time high. Anybody see the connection here? Like maybe nobody ever learned how to fish since it was so easy to just get in line for free fish? Worked well - didn't it?

Oh yeah, I forgot, I'm just another bitter old white guy clinging to my bible and my airplane....

Why bother any more....:dunno:
 
Last edited:
Art VanDelay said:
Affirmative Action though well meaning initially is an enormous joke today.
Click to expand...

Affirmative Action was intended to provide opportunity to those out of the loop. It was necessary because historically, white males offered opportunity only to other white males.

aviatingfool said:
52 years of reverse discrimination, sorry, I mean affirmative action, and they are still complaining....why bother any more....:dunno:
Click to expand...

If you classify Affirmative Action as "reverse discrimination", aren't you ultimately complaining that the discrimination you benefit from is being undermined? :dunno:
 
wabower said:
I think women are too smart to think the hare is worth the chase.
Click to expand...

This report is 90% hogwash.

Wayne hit the nail on the head.

Add to that:

Sex appeal plays a large part towards attracting men, especially young men. women are not so concerned about looking macho and thus lease appeal.
 
Michele said:
Here is an excerp.
The phenomenon of female disinterest in professional flying as a personal career track is the subject of a study commissioned by the Wolf Aviation Fund Teaching Women to Fly Research Project. Its report, based on extensive interviews, concludes there are 10 major barriers that women face:

1. Lack of money for general aviation flight training.
Click to expand...

most girls I ever knew had more money than me, as I had to work my ass off while they were daddies little girls with new cars and just about anything else they wanted.....

Michele said:
2. Instructor-student communication incompatibility.
Click to expand...

aint buying this either....
women are better communicators so how is it possible they would be worse communication with a CFI?

Michele said:
3. Instructor interruptus, when instructors leave flight training to take airline or charter jobs, often requiring the student to start over with another instructor. This is time consuming, expensive, and discouraging to many female students.
Click to expand...

This doesn't happen to male students too?

Michele said:
4. Lack of female mentors and support systems.
Click to expand...

patty flagstaff, ninty niners....
There are more male pilots due to the fact that 90% of pilots in the 50's, 60's, 70's came from the military possibly.

Michele said:
5. Personal lack of confidence in their ability and a “fear of flying,” especially of stalling the airplane too early in the training process.
Click to expand...

possibly but plenty of men have little confidence, those with football other sports and military experience may have higher than average confidence.

Michele said:
6. Lack of experience with and knowledge of mechanical systems.
Click to expand...

I don't see this as a limiting factor as many I fly with can't change their oil in their car.

Michele said:
7. Lack of map reading experience and orienteering skill sets.
Click to expand...

got me there.. women are terrible with directions, giving directions, taking directions, following directions.....bad spacial skills all together.

Look at the number of women in Engineering....math....economics...most science fields....

Michele said:
8. Flight schools perceived as indifferent to female students.
Click to expand...

Flight schools love people with good credit who can borrow large amounts of money.

Michele said:
9. Famous female pilots largely unknown as role models to non-aviator women.
Click to expand...

As opposed to male pilots???? The only ones widely known are both male an female like astronauts.

Michele said:
10. Lack of emotional support from family and friends who perceive flying as “too dangerous.”
Click to expand...

Yet more women than ever are joining combat arms in the military?
 
You're wasting your breath Tony. They don't want to work for it - they want to whine about how it's somebody else's fault. Kinda the new national mantra, coming straight from the top.....:mad2:

I can almost guarantee they grew up in a privileged family, or at least one without financial hardships or one dependent on the government. Very few that earned their whole way through life feels that way. I live in a college town and I see it every day. The kids that had to work hard for everything aren't the ones protesting all the time - they are working or studying. Those that came here with everything paid for by Daddy and drive Mom's 2 yr. old high end car whine all the time. Amazing. What's really sad is most of those hard working kids are foreigners.....
 
Last edited:
LandSickness said:
Affirmative Action was intended to provide opportunity to those out of the loop. It was necessary because historically, white males offered opportunity only to other white males.



If you classify Affirmative Action as "reverse discrimination", aren't you ultimately complaining that the discrimination you benefit from is being undermined? :dunno:
Click to expand...

bsflag21.gif
 
aviatingfool said:
You're wasting your breath Tony. They don't want to work for it - they want to whine about how it's somebody else's fault. Kinda the new national mantra, coming straight from the top.....:mad2:
Click to expand...
Spoken by someone who is upset because Affirmative Action meant that he had to actually work for it and produce results.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Sex appeal plays a large part towards attracting men, especially young men. women are not so concerned about looking macho and thus lease appeal.
Click to expand...

Wait, are you suggesting that dudes would actually get themselves into over $100k in debt and have to take any crappy flying job the could, earning next to nothing, all for a piece of a$$???

...okay, I guess I could see that.

Personally I think it is more a fact of males being more susceptible to SJS than their female counterparts.
 
aviatingfool said:
You're wasting your breath Tony. They don't want to work for it - they want to whine about how it's somebody else's fault. Kinda the new national mantra, coming straight from the top.....:mad2:
Click to expand...

I'm sorry you feel that way. I earned my ppl and instrument fairly just like everyone else. The mistakes I made I owned up to. The mistakes in my training my CFi owned up to. It has nothing to do with my gender. I'm a pilot, you're a pilot. Why can't people see us as equal pilots?
 
Z06_Mir said:
Why can't people see us as equal pilots?
Click to expand...
I could be wrong, but I think most people these days can. It is just a few vocal holdouts that want to hold on to outdated stereotypes. They complain about women whining, but the only whining I hear comes from them.
 
LandSickness said:
Affirmative Action was intended to provide opportunity to those out of the loop. It was necessary because historically, white males offered opportunity only to other white males.



If you classify Affirmative Action as "reverse discrimination", aren't you ultimately complaining that the discrimination you benefit from is being undermined? :dunno:
Click to expand...



aviatingfool said:
bsflag21.gif
Click to expand...

It would be nice if you came up with an actual rebuttal to his statement rather than just raising a BS flag:rolleyes2:

But I guess there is no legitimate rebuttal to the truth.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top