Landing Clearance

gkaiser

gkaiser

Pre-takeoff checklist
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gkaiser
Student pilot, solo...i fly out of an uncontrolled airport so my atc-interaction experience is very limited. I flew into a class D yesterday to do 3-full stop landings.

First landing, no issues..taxi'd back..on initial call-up to the tower i advised I wanted to stay in the pattern to do some landings. He cleared me for take off with left traffic. I took off...I expected him to give me landing clearance while on downwind..he did not. I started getting further and further away and finally told him I was on downwind for 22. When then he gave me clearance to land. The following two laps when I was on downwind he automatically called me and gave me clearance to land.

So, my question is..am I suppose to call downwind to land when i'm in the pattern and the controller knows my intentions? Or he did just forget? Should I be asking everytime I'm on downwind?
 
It is customary to alert the tower that you are on the downwind. I train my students to contact tower when at the "mid-field downwind" position when doing pattern work. If they can't get that call in due to radio congestion, they can announce "downwind abeam". If they still can't get that call in, they can announce "extended downwind". In either case, you should make a best effort to alert tower of your intentions. While you made the request with tower on your initial call up, these people do get busy sometimes, and they may be distracted and momentarily forget you. Your calls on the downwind will help them and in turn, it will help you.
 
CFI.William said:
It is customary to alert the tower that you are on the downwind. I train my students to contact tower when at the "mid-field downwind" position when doing pattern work. If they can't get that call in due to radio congestion, they can announce "downwind abeam". If they still can't get that call in, they can announce "extended downwind". In either case, you should make a best effort to alert tower of your intentions. While you made the request with tower on your initial call up, these people do get busy sometimes, and they may be distracted and momentarily forget you. Your calls on the downwind will help them and in turn, it will help you.
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Gotchya. Honestly I think they forgot about me..the airport is really pretty quiet and the ground controller/tower controller were the same guy. When I initially gave me request to stay in the pattern it was one guy but there was a different voice that finally gave me why landing clearance so maybe it was shift change or something. And on my two additional landings they gave me clearance to land on my downwind w/o even asking.

So, William, you tell your students to call mid-field downtown every time..even if the controller knows their intentions? Maybe that's what I should start doing..

Thanks for the advice!
Greg
 
gkaiser said:
So, my question is..am I suppose to call downwind to land when i'm in the pattern and the controller knows my intentions?
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Only if you've been told to report downwind.

Or he did just forget?
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Possibly. He may be busy with something else, such as recording an ATIS.

Should I be asking everytime I'm on downwind?
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Only if you've been told to report downwind.
 
roncachamp said:
Only if you've been told to report downwind.



Possibly. He may be busy with something else, such as recording an ATIS.



Only if you've been told to report downwind.
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Nope, I wasn't told to report anything. He gave me clearance to takeoff runway 22 and advised left pattern. Then I never heard from him again until I was on an extended downwind and asked.

So I guess in the future I don't need to report if he doesn't request it..but if I don't hear anything by downwind-abeam maybe call and advise my location as a reminder...
 
They may very well have forgotten about you. I've flown into some quiet airports where I was cleared for takeoff when I was on the ramp asking for taxi clearance. ;-) Sleep at the wheel much?

I instruct out of a very busy class D airport where the tower controllers control airplanes way outside of their airspace (think 10+ NM downwind legs). Sometimes they get so busy that they just lose track of who's who and the whole pattern deteriorates into a mushroom cloud. So making those calls help keep the local controller in check. Don't expect ATC to be gods. They're human. And they make mistakes. Always remember, YOU are the the PIC. YOU do whatever it takes to maintain your situational awareness and safety of flight. If ATC forgets you, get on it as PIC. If ATC asks you to do something that you don't believe is safe or within your capabilities, the first word out of your mouth to them should be "unable".

So yes, I do instruct my students to announce on the downwind, but it's a positional announcement. There's a difference between these two:

"Tower, N12345, mid field left downwind."
"Tower, N12345, mid field left downwind, request touch and go."

The latter is just excess because the controller already knows you are there for touch and gos. You told them this on your initial call up. The former is to alert them where you are each time around the pattern. Remember, a Class D airport controller has to maintain visual contact with your airplane. Most don't have RADAR screens, and those that do, can't use them for sequencing and separation purposes. They must use their eye balls. So do you think these guys are spinning around in that tower cab staring at you? Not a chance. But if you let them know where you are, they have an idea and can do the quick mental math to aid in their sequencing and separation, or they can look out their window once you call them up and see for themselves.
 
Hey nothing that says you have to get your clearance on downwind either. A lot of towers for closed traffic will simply say report base. At any rate you don't have to keep going downwind forever just because you expect a clearance on downwind. Turn and report base. Still no clearance, report final. There's another thread where the aircraft landed without clearance on a guys check ride! I personally would have done a go around but whatever. ATC ops should be done with as little communication as possible to reduce frequency congestion. If they have you report something it's because he's using it as a wake up call so he doesn't forget you. In the old days it was because we were watching TV!
 
gkaiser said:
Nope, I wasn't told to report anything. He gave me clearance to takeoff runway 22 and advised left pattern. Then I never heard from him again until I was on an extended downwind and asked.

So I guess in the future I don't need to report if he doesn't request it..but if I don't hear anything by downwind-abeam maybe call and advise my location as a reminder...
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You need a clearance before you hit the deck, sometimes a reminder is called for. But you don't need authorization to turn base unless you've been told to extend downwind or something similar.
 
roncachamp said:
You need a clearance before you hit the deck, sometimes a reminder is called for. But you don't need authorization to turn base unless you've been told to extend downwind or something similar.
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I thought about turning base but was leary about turning base in front of someone on final..granted, i didn't hear ANY other traffic out there at that time except for me....but would hate to turn base in front of someone on final just because i missed their radio call..I'd rather extend my downwind...
 
gkaiser said:
I thought about turning base but was leary about turning base in front of someone on final..granted, i didn't hear ANY other traffic out there at that time except for me....but would hate to turn base in front of someone on final just because i missed their radio call..I'd rather extend my downwind...
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Funny you mentioned this because I was just about to say...

For god's sake, if the pattern is busy and you're on downwind number 3 to land, it's a good idea to ask the tower to call your base. Unless you absolutely have EVERY other aircraft in sight!

I cut a guy off once because I thought I was following the correct aircraft, but I missed the tower's instructions to another guy he cleared for a straight in:yikes:

Why on earth did he clear a guy for a straingt in when he had two on downwind, I'll never know :hairraise::dunno:.

That taught me a valuable lesson....when in doubt ASK! "tower, skyhawk 23kilo, would you call my base?"
 
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Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I recall the details. I was number three behind the straight-in guy but the controller didn't make that clear. He told me I was following a warrior or something. I thought he was talking about the guy in front of me on downwind:confused:

No he was talking about the straight-in guy who was number two! I didn't spot him until after I turned base but he saw me and elected to do a 360 (advising the tower) to avoid the conflict. Tower informed me that I cut the guy off, then cleared me to land. I learned a lot that day!:eek:
 
I see no problem with announcing midfield downwind. If it is busy the controller might sequence you, if it is a slow airport I don't expect the controller to watch me the entire lap around the pattern.
 
redtail said:
Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I recall the details. I was number three behind the straight-in guy but the controller didn't make that clear. He told me I was following a warrior or something. I thought he was talking about the guy in front of me on downwind:confused:

No he was talking about the straight-in guy who was number two! I didn't spot him until after I turned base but he saw me and elected to do a 360 (advising the tower) to avoid the conflict. Tower informed me that I cut the guy off, then cleared me to land. I learned a lot that day!:eek:
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You bring up a very good point...at a busier airport, especially if your number 3+ from landing..asking the controller to call your base...I could definitely see the turn to base when you THINK the guy your turning after is the right number..but it really isnt..great tip! thanks!
 
In class d airspace the tower is responsible for separation on the runway. Unless they tell you otherwise ( report downwind, base, etc) you do not have to report to them. They may actually not want you to to tie up the freq. I mainly fly out of busy Delta airspaces. What I typically do if I have not been given instructions by downwind is when I am turning base I say " 3UW turning base for 29R". I would never do it on downwind. The tower often gives me landing clearance just before I turn base when it is busy.
 
TommyG said:
I see no problem with announcing midfield downwind. If it is busy the controller might sequence you, if it is a slow airport I don't expect the controller to watch me the entire lap around the pattern.
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That's a good point you bring up. It was dead at the airport when I arrived (of course by my 3rd lap around the pattern I was #3 for landing)...but worst case I call up and say i'm midfield downwind and he gives me clearance to land (which he may/may not of been getting ready to do his own anyways)...but your right..I can't expect the controller just to be staring at my airplane flying the pattern..that'd even put me to sleep.
 
redtail said:
Why on earth did he clear a guy for a straingt in when he had two on downwind, I'll never know :hairraise::dunno:.
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Perhaps he felt it easier to have the two on downwind extend a bit, if necessary, than to have the straight-in perform a sequence of maneuvers to follow them.
 
I fly out of a class D. While doing pattern work, I've been cleared everywhere from still climbing to turning base.

I know at our airport, the same controller is usually handling ground and air as well as posting a new ATIS at 10 til every hour. For that reason, I like to call as I turn crosswind to downwind. That way, they have a few extra seconds to get back to me.
 
I was at a class D somewhere, probably MKG, and was cleared for multiple options until further notice. I think I flew about 5 or 6 more without talking to the tower again until I told them I was finished and headed back to my home 'drome.
 
roncachamp said:
Perhaps he felt it easier to have the two on downwind extend a bit, if necessary, than to have the straight-in perform a sequence of maneuvers to follow them.
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Possibly.
I'm sure it was my fault, I misunderstood the communications and who I was supposed to be following. Another reason to confirm things when in a busy pattern!

Or avoid busy patterns:)
 
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roncachamp said:
You need a clearance before you hit the deck
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Perhaps I need a brushup on my Class D communication requirements...if he's in comms with the tower and told them closed pattern and they cleared him, isn't the landing clearance superfluous?
 
everyone seems to hit it. It's whatever you've been cleared to do. When I was a student, the tower told me I was cleared for 3 touch and go's with a full stop at the 3rd landing. I didn't have to report while I was doing it. You do whatever they tell you, that's what you're cleared to do. If he told you to report certain positions, do it.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Perhaps I need a brushup on my Class D communication requirements...if he's in comms with the tower and told them closed pattern and they cleared him, isn't the landing clearance superfluous?
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Cleared him for what?
 
Jaybird are you trying to say "closed traffic approved" is an authorization to do the option on your own?:confused:
 
Was doing night stop and goes at the Class C after midnight (no traffic anywhere in the region except me). Asked the controller if he needed to clear each landing and he indicated it was a requirement ... and on each downwind he'd key up "N12345 cleared the option 26L".
 
Pretty sure it is good practice to identify your position in the pattern if you have not been cleared to land and are intending to do so. I've flown into and out of a class C airport extensively throughout my training and it remains my home airport even now that I have my PPL. There have been days when I'm told to report the midfield down winds and others where I was told cleared for takeoff make left traffic. On either clearance I'm still going to inform the tower of my position on the downwind leg when I can get a word in. Many times it is only after this call on the downwind that I've received my sequencing to land, " extend downwind to follow the Cessna, short approach, cleared to land,"whatever it is. Why would you not want to announce your position in the traffic pattern? Everyone listening, especially the pilots also in the pattern can then develop situationally awareness.

There were also times when I had to verify landing clearance on short final because I followed their instructions to follow a certain airplane but were never cleared to land. I just think it's better to ask and take up the 5 seconds on the frequency then run the risk of landing without clearance.
 
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The guys at KJVL gave me a good confusion on my solo as well. Cleared to land and taxi back but had to ask for take off with no one in sight. Probably gave them a good scare as I mixed up my left and right traffic on my initial approach and they helped sort it out. Ah, first solo flights! Repeat of I hear the plane but I don't see him.
 
Velocity173 said:
Jaybird are you trying to say "closed traffic approved" is an authorization to do the option on your own?:confused:
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Never had one, but I could see a lazy tower operator doing that, and I could see myself accepting. But my dang habit of calling position reports at pilot controlled fields would spoil the silence.
 
It really depends on how busy they are, they have the radar and your transponder signals though so they know where you are. I went out to a class D the other day and there was literally no time to be calling downwinds in the pattern even if you wanted to
 
roncachamp said:
Perhaps he felt it easier to have the two on downwind extend a bit, if necessary, than to have the straight-in perform a sequence of maneuvers to follow them.
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I amazes me how many pilot consider flying a "straight in" approach to be a form of "cutting in line", even at towered airports.
 
rcpilot said:
It really depends on how busy they are, they have the radar and your transponder signals though so they know where you are. I went out to a class D the other day and there was literally no time to be calling downwinds in the pattern even if you wanted to
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They MAY have RADAR displays, if they happen to be near a facility that actually has it and have repeater screens. They're called DBRITE, or at least they used to be.
 
I've been cleared on short final before. I thoroughly HATE that, but sometimes it happens when the pattern is really busy. You're not in violation until you touch the deck, but in this case, you might bust a neighboring Class D if you extend downwind without being told to.

I'll go around if I haven't heard anything by 100 AGL. Generally, I'll ask for sequence abeam the numbers if I haven't heard yet.
 
rcpilot said:
It really depends on how busy they are, they have the radar and your transponder signals though so they know where you are. I went out to a class D the other day and there was literally no time to be calling downwinds in the pattern even if you wanted to
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Many Class D airports do not have radar and are doing in by sight. Do not know how common this is but I would not assume that class D airports have radar capability. I know my home airport does not.

That being said I have been asked to report downwind, mid field downwind, base, and every position I can think of. Often it depends on how they have me enter the pattern. The only time I did stop and goes in a towered enviroment was during my ppl training and I reported entering downwind. Once I thought they forgot about me and call in stating I was doing an extended downwind, and promptly got cleared to make a base turn. They however told me to expect them to call base. My feeling is when in doubt call out. They may get teed off with you for asking something they thought they told you, but it will be your behind on the fire if you mess up.

Doug
 
Most of the time the tower will tell me to report left mid-field downwind. If I'm doing multiple touch-n-gos I will assume this applies to every pattern after I've heard it once. If they don't tell me to report anything then most of the time the remember to clear me either on downwind or base. If I don't hear from them I'll call up as I'm turning final and ask.

Once I called turning final, called again on final, and once more over the numbers and didn't hear anything. I went around and called again as I turned downwind. The controller was confused as to why I wasn't on the ground.
 
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