IFR in a different category question

PilotMedic865

Filing Flight Plan
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FlyBoy913
Okay, let's say hypothetically, someone has an ATP and instrument rating in helicopters, but only private pilot privileges in single engine land. Let's say the weather turns bad unexpectedly on this person while they are flying a PA28, and they encounter inadvertent IMC. The aircraft is IFR certified, and the pilot is instrument current in helicopters. They get up on approach and request a squawk code and vectors for the nearest RNAV approach to get down safely. They get vectors to the final approach fix and safely execute the LPV approach. Would the pilot technically be in violation? Would it be considered an emergency? How would you handle this situation as a CFI or controller?
 
Not "technically" in violation, he's overtly in violation.

14 CFR 61.3 - Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.
...
(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:

(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;
 
Not "technically" in violation, he's overtly in violation.

14 CFR 61.3 - Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.
...
(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:

(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;
So, the legal alternative would be to try to remain VFR and hope they land safely effectively scud running? At what point would it be safer to violate the regs and live to explain it away later?
 
Okay, let's say hypothetically, someone has an ATP and instrument rating in helicopters, but only private pilot privileges in single engine land. Let's say the weather turns bad unexpectedly on this person while they are flying a PA28, and they encounter inadvertent IMC. The aircraft is IFR certified, and the pilot is instrument current in helicopters. They get up on approach and request a squawk code and vectors for the nearest RNAV approach to get down safely. They get vectors to the final approach fix and safely execute the LPV approach. Would the pilot technically be in violation? Would it be considered an emergency? How would you handle this situation as a CFI or controller?
What do you expect the controller to do other than grant the request? If the pilot were to declare an emergency, he can pretty much do anything to safely land.
 
In this case, it's like he doesn't have an instrument rating.
Note that the Airplane instrument rating does carry over into the glider class.
 
If the choice is to follow the regs and die trying or violate the regs and land with a pop up IFR clearance...no brainer. However, it does not let the pilot off the hook for putting himself into that situation. Lucy...you might have some ‘splainin to do....but maybe not. I would do what I felt best for the safety of the flight at that point and deal with potential regulatory consequences.
 
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So, the legal alternative would be to try to remain VFR and hope they land safely effectively scud running? At what point would it be safer to violate the regs and live to explain it away later?
91.3 provides a legal alternative in an emergency, which this is. And ATC has no idea if you're instrument rated, current, proficient, equipped, or anything else that you don't tell them. So it's probably a good idea to tell them everything they need to know.
 
I have an acquaintance who was IFR qualified in Army helicopters. He bought a partnership in a Bonanza and routinely filed and flew IFR for his job... didn't want to take the airplane checkride. As far as I know he is still doing it.
 
Agree with others here. Wx changed unexpectedly, I assume change precluded scud running which is a whole nother ball of poo. So, I’m thinking in this situation, I’m picking up the clearance, declaring the big “E”, and getting down. Yeah going to have a form or two and get to talk to some interesting folks, but me and my passengers live. Penalty? Have to take some ground school on weather and promise to sin no more I bet. At 60 years old I’m still a bit naive, but when you open with honesty and transparency things seem to turn out alright, most of the time…
 
Violated the regs? Yes. Worth declaring an emergency, as described? Personally, I don’t think so unless you actually felt like there was something beyond your resources (personal ability, aircraft resources, etc.). I’d contend there’s not a lot that’s harder in a PA-28 in IMC than in a helicopter, although I’m guessing that’s not true for the other direction.

The odds of getting caught are pretty dang low. It was inadvertent and not truly life-threatening, I’d contend. An appropriate course to me could have been to just get the pop-up as you did, without declaring an emergency, and filing a NASA report once you’re down in case it somehow comes to light. And maybe the NASA report sparks a re-look to see if a helo IFR rating covers you for fixed wing but not vice versa, which I think is plausible.
 
Controller wouldn’t have anything to do with it. They issue clearances based on traffic. Pilots are responsible to comply with regs. If you request the approach you get it. Maybe not right away if there’s traffic in the way
Okay, let's say hypothetically, someone has an ATP and instrument rating in helicopters, but only private pilot privileges in single engine land. Let's say the weather turns bad unexpectedly on this person while they are flying a PA28, and they encounter inadvertent IMC. The aircraft is IFR certified, and the pilot is instrument current in helicopters. They get up on approach and request a squawk code and vectors for the nearest RNAV approach to get down safely. They get vectors to the final approach fix and safely execute the LPV approach. Would the pilot technically be in violation? Would it be considered an emergency? How would you handle this situation as a CFI or controller.
 
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Years ago I was heading VFR to Oshkosh. Getting VFR services from MKE I note that Oshkosh is IFR ahead.

27K: Milwaukee Approach, Navion 27K Looks like Oshkosh is IFR. Can I get an IFR clearance from you or do I need to go to Flight Service.
MKE: (an audible sigh on the radio, like it's starting already). Are you rated and equipped?
27K: Affirmative.
MKE: Proceed direct Oshkosh, Maintain 3000. Expect the VOR 9 approach.
27K: How about the RNAV 9.
MKE: OK, expect that.

Interesting breaking out at 900 feet over the show.
 
I think when you look at cases of inadvertent VFR into IMC where an emergency was declared there are very few violations processed as a consequence. I think both the pilot and the controllers are typically relieved when it ends safely.
 
Years ago I was heading VFR to Oshkosh. Getting VFR services from MKE I note that Oshkosh is IFR ahead.

27K: Milwaukee Approach, Navion 27K Looks like Oshkosh is IFR. Can I get an IFR clearance from you or do I need to go to Flight Service.
MKE: (an audible sigh on the radio, like it's starting already). Are you rated and equipped?
27K: Affirmative.
MKE: Proceed direct Oshkosh, Maintain 3000. Expect the VOR 9 approach.
27K: How about the RNAV 9.
MKE: OK, expect that.

Interesting breaking out at 900 feet over the show.
He actually did that? Ask you if you were rated and equipped? Have you ever been asked that when you’re on the ground requesting Clearance?
 
He actually did that? Ask you if you were rated and equipped? Have you ever been asked that when you’re on the ground requesting Clearance?
I’ve heard it every time I or someone else on the radio asked for an IFR clearance in flight without filing a flight plan first. I believe it’s a normal ATC procedure.
 
I’ve heard it every time I or someone else on the radio asked for an IFR clearance in flight without filing a flight plan first. I believe it’s a normal ATC procedure.
I can’t say every time but my experience is similar. Maybe because we log in before filing pre-flight (and therefore there’s an audit trail), they don’t need to ask then but for pop-ups there’s less indications of who it really is.
 
I can’t say every time but my experience is similar. Maybe because we log in before filing pre-flight (and therefore there’s an audit trail), they don’t need to ask then but for pop-ups there’s less indications of who it really is.
ATC isn’t going to see any of the audit trail, they simply see whether or not a flight plan was filed.
 
I can’t say every time but my experience is similar. Maybe because we log in before filing pre-flight (and therefore there’s an audit trail), they don’t need to ask then but for pop-ups there’s less indications of who it really is.
As mentioned, there is no "audit trail" that ATC sees.
I think that when we do a cold-call popup, is just a question that basically asks, "Is this going to be a problem?" Just a byproduct of paragraph 10-2-8 of the ATC manual.

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Didn’t mean to imply that ATC actively looked at an audit trail. My bad. What I meant was, unlike the OP situation, if a non-IFR-rated pilot filed an IFR flight plan on line and then had some event that triggered a look-back, there would be a pretty good paper trail of how many times they filed IFR without being qualified in the past. One would hope that would reduce the number of unqualified people flying IFR.

Re the discussion about controllers asking for qualification at the time of a pop-up, whether or not it’s in the regs, I could see that being useful information: if “yes”, then it’s not likely to be a big event. If “no”, then it could move closer to being an emergency and warrant different handling, as Midlife’s quote of the regs indicates
 
Violated the regs? Yes. Worth declaring an emergency, as described? Personally, I don’t think so unless you actually felt like there was something beyond your resources (personal ability, aircraft resources, etc.). I’d contend there’s not a lot that’s harder in a PA-28 in IMC than in a helicopter, although I’m guessing that’s not true for the other direction.

The odds of getting caught are pretty dang low. It was inadvertent and not truly life-threatening, I’d contend. An appropriate course to me could have been to just get the pop-up as you did, without declaring an emergency, and filing a NASA report once you’re down in case it somehow comes to light. And maybe the NASA report sparks a re-look to see if a helo IFR rating covers you for fixed wing but not vice versa, which I think is plausible.
FAA doesn’t investigate NASA form reports.
 
Keep in mind that “getting to where you were going” is not an emergency. If you had a VFR “out” and didn’t take it just because it would have been inconvenient, expect to be called on it if the FAA got involved
 
FAA doesn’t investigate NASA form reports.
No, I understand. I believe there are two significant purposes for the reports: gathering data to aid in improving aviation safety and secondarily (to them; primarily to us pilots), to provide an alibi in certain situations when a pilot knows something went sideways. In this case, one could file a report if they were concerned the event would somehow run the risk of disciplinary action. And, yeah, I doubt NASA would suggest to the FAA that they change their IFR qualification regs but if it ever came up on the FAA side, there could be some data from NASA reports supporting the decision. Naïve, I know.
 
No, I understand. I believe there are two significant purposes for the reports: gathering data to aid in improving aviation safety and secondarily (to them; primarily to us pilots), to provide an alibi in certain situations when a pilot knows something went sideways. In this case, one could file a report if they were concerned the event would somehow run the risk of disciplinary action. And, yeah, I doubt NASA would suggest to the FAA that they change their IFR qualification regs but if it ever came up on the FAA side, there could be some data from NASA reports supporting the decision. Naïve, I know.
One of the reasons NASA was selected to gather the data is so that the FAA doesn’t have access to it. It doesn’t give the pilot an alibi, it gives him immunity from the penalty for a violation (one immunity per five years, IIRC.) the FAA cannot access ASRS data to investigate or in any way influence a violation.
 
As mentioned, there is no "audit trail" that ATC sees.
I think that when we do a cold-call popup, is just a question that basically asks, "Is this going to be a problem?" Just a byproduct of paragraph 10-2-8 of the ATC manual.

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That has nothing to do with @flyingron ‘s post #13 that started this discussion. It’s in Chapter 10. Emergencies. But it appears from reading on that quite a few Controllers do apply it to a simple request for IFR when airborne. Either as a pop up or already with the Controller on Flight Following.
 
It's been said and it bears repeating that an emergency is an emergency whether you declare an emergency or not. "In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency." It says nothing about declaring an emergency. The AIM says that you should declare an emergency on encountering an emergency, but of course it's aviate navigate communicate
 
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That has nothing to do with @flyingron ‘s post #13 that started this discussion. It’s in Chapter 10. Emergencies. But it appears from reading on that quite a few Controllers do apply it to a simple request for IFR when airborne. Either as a pop up or already with the Controller on Flight Following.
That's why I referred to it as a "byproduct." Just like controllers who ask if you can maintain terrain and obstacle clearance to the MIA when you call from the ground. Or "climb via" when there are no intermediate altitude restrictions. And others that are used for situations beyond the specific ones mentioned in the Point 65.
 
That's why I referred to it as a "byproduct." Just like controllers who ask if you can maintain terrain and obstacle clearance to the MIA when you call from the ground. Or "climb via" when there are no intermediate altitude restrictions. And others that are used for situations beyond the specific ones mentioned in the Point 65.
One that irks me is when on Flight Following they ask if you have the terrain in sight. I want to ask what would you do if I said no. Never did. I don’t fly much anymore, been a couple years and most likely won’t again. Somebody wanna do it and get back here with their answer.
 
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One that irks me is when on Flight Following they ask if you have the terrain in sight. I want to ask what would you do if I said no. Never did. I don’t fly much anymore, been a couple years and most likely won’t again. Somebody do it and get back here with their answer.
They’d give you a heading away from terrain.
 
One that irks me is when on Flight Following they ask if you have the terrain in sight. I want to ask what would you do if I said no. Never did. I don’t fly much anymore, been a couple years and most likely won’t again. Somebody do it and get back here with their answer.
I have been asked that about a nearby obstruction the locals know as "Scary Tower." It's one of those tall radio towers that seems to disappear during the day. There's even an IFR takeoff minimum about it. RDU TRACON will sometimes ask when you seem to be getting close.

But the first time I was asked was a flight back to Denver from a group fly-in to Driggs, ID. Approaching Elk Mountain near Laramie, WY, which sticks up about 3,000' from the surrounding terrain, I was asked whether I had it in sight. Super visible. You can't miss it. So I wondered why. Then I found out that one of my friends had crashed in the Wind River range taking a more northerly route that I chose. Suddenly their concern made sense.

So, no, it doesn't irk me.
 
He actually did that? Ask you if you were rated and equipped? Have you ever been asked that when you’re on the ground requesting Clearance?
Flying Ron said that happened years ago. Am I mistaken in believing that a few years ago they did away with the query about being rated and current when someone encounters inadvertent VFR into IMC? If it's an emergency (which it is by definition) whether he's current and rated may not be that important and could just added to the pilot's stress level.

The last time I remember hearing that on a recording was a 2008 crash near Traverse City, MI. A pilot in a C206 amphib tried to outclimb an undercast and got into IMC. He was rated but lied about being current and eventually was killed in the process of landing. It's a fascinating case of a pilot doing almost everything wrong when there were good options to survive the crash, and had a VERY helpful controller. I have a whole Powerpoint presentation with audio and lots of other information, and if someone is interested I can email it to you. (Case number CEN09FA093.)
 
Okay, let's say hypothetically, someone has an ATP and instrument rating in helicopters, but only private pilot privileges in single engine land. Let's say the weather turns bad unexpectedly on this person while they are flying a PA28, and they encounter inadvertent IMC. The aircraft is IFR certified, and the pilot is instrument current in helicopters. They get up on approach and request a squawk code and vectors for the nearest RNAV approach to get down safely. They get vectors to the final approach fix and safely execute the LPV approach. Would the pilot technically be in violation? Would it be considered an emergency? How would you handle this situation as a CFI or controller?
Ok, let’s break down your question.


The pilot is not going to have an ATP with an IR.

61.5(b)(8). Instrument ratings (on private and commercial pilot certificates only)—

61.167 Airline transport pilot privileges and limitations.
(a) Privileges.
(1) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate is entitled to the same privileges as a person who holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating.


61.3 (e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;



§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.

§ 91.103 Preflight action.
Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. This information must include

a) For a flight under IFR or a flight not in the vicinity of an airport, weather reports and forecasts, fuel requirements, alternatives available if the planned flight cannot be completed, and any known traffic delays of which the pilot in command has been advised by ATC;

91.13 Careless or reckless operation.
(a) Aircraft operations for the purpose of air navigation. No person may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another.


The pilot created the emergency by continuing the flight without an alternative to violating an FAR and FAA could violate under 61.3 as well as 91.13 Careless Operation and 91.103 Preflight Action.



If he declared an emergency under IFR, the controller will forward to the FAA and the FAA is likely to investigate.
 
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Flying Ron said that happened years ago. Am I mistaken in believing that a few years ago they did away with the query about being rated and current when someone encounters inadvertent VFR into IMC? If it's an emergency (which it is by definition) whether he's current and rated may not be that important and could just added to the pilot's stress level.

The last time I remember hearing that on a recording was a 2008 crash near Traverse City, MI. A pilot in a C206 amphib tried to outclimb an undercast and got into IMC. He was rated but lied about being current and eventually was killed in the process of landing. It's a fascinating case of a pilot doing almost everything wrong when there were good options to survive the crash, and had a VERY helpful controller. I have a whole Powerpoint presentation with audio and lots of other information, and if someone is interested I can email it to you. (Case number CEN09FA093.)
No. That’s still there.
 
I have been asked that about a nearby obstruction the locals know as "Scary Tower." It's one of those tall radio towers that seems to disappear during the day. There's even an IFR takeoff minimum about it. RDU TRACON will sometimes ask when you seem to be getting close.

But the first time I was asked was a flight back to Denver from a group fly-in to Driggs, ID. Approaching Elk Mountain near Laramie, WY, which sticks up about 3,000' from the surrounding terrain, I was asked whether I had it in sight. Super visible. You can't miss it. So I wondered why. Then I found out that one of my friends had crashed in the Wind River range taking a more northerly route that I chose. Suddenly their concern made sense.

So, no, it doesn't irk me.
Say you were ‘over the top’ and said you didn’t see it. What would you expect them to do?
 
He actually did that? Ask you if you were rated and equipped? Have you ever been asked that when you’re on the ground requesting Clearance?
I have been asked when getting a pop-up IFR clearance.

This was August 2022 bringing my new to me plane home.
 
I have been asked when getting a pop-up IFR clearance.

This was August 2022 bringing my new to me plane home.
I know it happens. I was being kinda snarky when I said “He actually did that” to stimulate conversation on the subject. I spent 23 years of my 30 as a Controller at Approach Controls and a Center. I never asked the question and don’t remember hearing it from another Controller. Think about it. What are the odds that a pilot would answer the question with ‘no.’ I suppose there may a be a pilot out there somewhere who after requesting IFR Clearance confessed that he was not allowed to, but I hope there aren’t any that stupid. It’s a waste of air time on the frequency.
 
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